Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
1. Statement of the Doctrine. The Bible teaches that, while He exists in three Persons, called Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These are not three persons in the ordinary sense of the word; they are not three individuals, but rather three modes or forms in which the Divine Being exists. At the same time they are of such a nature that they can enter into personal relations. The Father can speak to the Son and vice versa, and both can send forth the Spirit. The real mystery of the Trinity consists in this that each one of the Persons possesses the whole of the divine essence, and that this has no existence outside of and apart from the Persons. The three are not subordinate in being the one to the other, though it may be said that in order of existence the Father is first, the Son second, and the Holy Spirit third, an order which is also reflected in their work.
2. Scripture Proof for the Trinity. The Old Testament contains some indications of more than one Person in God. God speaks of Himself in the plural, Gen. 1:26; 11:7; the Angel of Jehovah is represented as a divine Person, Gen. 16:7-13; 18:1-21; 19:1-22; and the Spirit is spoken of as a distinct Person, Isa. 48:16; 63:10. Moreover, there are some passages in which the Messiah is speaking and mentions two other Persons, Isa. 48:16; 61:6; 63:9, 10.
Due to the progress of revelation, the New Testament contains clearer proofs. The strongest proof is found in the facts of redemption. The Father sends the Son into the world, and the Son sends the Holy Spirit. Moreover, there are several passages in which the three Persons are expressly mentioned, such as the great commission, Matt. 28:19, and the apostolic blessing, II Cor. 13:13. Cf. also Luke 3:21, 22; 1:35; I Cor. 12:4-6; I Pet. 1:2.
This doctrine was denied by the Socinians in the days of the Reformation, and is rejected also by the Unitarians and the Modernists of our own day. If they speak of the Trinity at all, they represent it as consisting of the Father, the man Jesus, and a divine influence which is called the Spirit of God.
3. The Father. The name 'Father' is frequently applied in Scripture to the triune God, as the creator of all things, I Cor. 8:6; Heb. 12:9; Jas. 1:17; as the Father of Israel, Deut. 32:6; Isa. 63:16; and as the Father of believers, Matt. 5:45; 6:6, 9, 14; Rom. 8:15. In a deeper sense, however, it is applied to the First Person of the Trinity, to express His relation to the Second Person, John 1:14, 18; 8:54; 14:12, 13. This is the original Fatherhood, of which all earthly fatherhood is but a faint reflection. The distinctive characteristic of the Father is that He generates the Son from all eternity. The works particularly ascribed to Him are those of planning the work of redemption, creation and providence, and representing the Trinity in the Counsel of Redemption.
4. The Son. The second person in the Trinity is called 'Son' or 'Son of God.' He bears this name, however, not only as the only begotten of the Father, John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; Gal. 4:4, but also as the Messiah chosen of God, Matt. 8:29; 26:63; John 1:49; 11:27, and in virtue of His special birth through the operation of the Holy Spirit, Luke 1:32, 35. His special characteristic as the Second Person of the Trinity is that He is eternally begotten of the Father, Ps. 2:7; Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:5. By means of eternal generation the Father is the cause of the personal existence of the Son within the Divine Being. The works more particularly ascribed to Him are works of mediation. He mediated the work of creation, John 1:3, 10; Heb. 1:2, 3, and mediates the work of redemption, Eph. 1:3-14.
5. The Holy Spirit. Though Socinians, Unitarians, and present day Modernists speak of the Holy Spirit merely as a power or an influence of God, He clearly stands out on the pages of the Bible as a Person, John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:1-15; Rom. 8:26. He has intelligence, John 14:26, feeling, Isa. 68:10; Eph. 4:30, and will, Acts 16:7; I Cor. 12:11. Scripture represents Him as speaking, searching, testifying, commanding, revealing, striving, and making intercession. Moreover, He is clearly distinguished from His own power in Luke 1:35; 4:14; Acts 10:38; I Cor. 2:4. His special characteristic is that He proceeds from the Father and the Son by spiration, John 15:26; 16:7; Rom. 8:9; Gal. 4:6. In general it may be said that it is His task to bring things to completion both in creation and redemption, Gen. 1:3; Job 26:13; Luke 1:35; John 3:34; I Cor. 12:4-11; Eph. 2:22.
God purposely and directly CAUSED the death of His only Son. He didn't just allowed it to happen. Beautiful analogies do not change the word of God.
Under your premise God allows for some things in a Christian's life. Please keep in mind that God CAUSE ALL THINGS to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. (Rom 8:28) And while He predestined His Son to the cross, He resurrected Him to His glory.
Likewise it is with believers. God works everything in our lives to our benefit. He doesn't just "allow" things to happen. There is not one thing in your life-good or bad-that God does not do that isn't for your benefit. We are to give thanks in ALL things for this is the will of God.
Because I know the result of a flip of the coin doesn't mean I arranged it.
Regards
>>You seem to be ignoring those that don't suit your personal papacy my friend, and choose those that do.<<
You haven't used any scripture to back up your point. By all means go ahead.
Until you do, you're merely relying on emotion and feeeeeelings to determine where you stand on this issue.
>>He taught us that we can pray directly to the Father<<
In Christ's name.
All our works are as filthy rags before God, only with Christ as our justification can we approach the Father.
And just how was Judas benefited by God respecting his "choice" to betray our Lord?
When the Bible says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, it is clear that Pharaoh's will was being driven by God's plan and purpose. Where did Pharaoh's free will come into play? If Pharaoh's will was inviolate (as some of you Catholics insist) then God would not have been able to harden his heart. Nor would he have been able to soften yours. Your free will is not sacrosanct. God can mold you anyway he wants to. He can make you into a vessel to demonstrate his mercy or he can make you into a vessel to demonstrate his wrath.
While Judas' choices may have been of his own free will, God clearly placed him in the unique position where his destiny as the Son of Perdition was sealed from the foundation of the earth. God chose Judas from the foundation of the earth for a specific purpose and his purpose was to use Judas as a vessel of wrath.
What is his purpose for us? Something to ponder.
>>He has revealed Himself to all men<<
Pauls letter is to Titus, a fellow believer. Verses 11&12, when put in context with the rest of the chapter refers to saved Christians, not gentiles.
>>With life comes freedom and with freedom the freedom of the will, so that we can come to the Father willingly (not on our own will!),<<
So, which is it? Willingly, or not on our own will? You've contradicted yourself.
We are all dead in our tresspasses, and only though the gift of salvation can we become alive in Christ.
Eph 2:1-10 -
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
Did you catch that? He MADE US alive in Christ - not "you chose to be" alive in Christ. All grace, no works. Your concept of "free will" is largely a myth perpetuated by those who would seek to hamper God's utter sovereignty and authority over His creation.
And if it is God's purpose that the coin come up heads, what do you think the chances are that it will come up tails?
And in such a case, did God arrange it or merely allow it to happen?
Did God purpose and arrange for your salvation? Or did he merely allow it to happen?
Sorry, let me try again. Throughout the Scriptures, when God makes a covenant with man, He makes promises - not because He has to, but because He desires to. He binds Himself. We don't bind Him. He promises not to break His promise. But when we fail, He allows us to suffer the consequences of breaking the promise. Isn't that pretty clear in the Old Testament? If we part company with God in the New Covenant, God will again allow us to have what we desire - eternal life without Him. Thus, God's promises will not change - but He respects our decision to sin and even to turn away from Him. This freedom to sin is NOT removed when we become "saved".
Presumably, you mean "and lose your salvation". You just said that you have the power to snatch yourself out of God's hand. I would say that if your salvation was true, God would not let you do that.
The problem with "if your salvation was true" is that WE don't know, only God knows if we are truly of the flock that hears His voice. By placing the onus on yourself to determine if you are saved, you take away God's free will on who is of the elect, aren't you? Do you know any of your Protestant brothers who say that they do NOT have saving faith yet??? It seems to me that YOU are making the judgment on whether you are saved, not God
First, by external force, do you mean "yourself", as in above?
We are not an external force to ourselves. Only WE can cause our own demise - only we can "return to the vomit" of our former ways. No one can pry us from God's "hands" unwillingly. The devil is allowed to tempt us, but he cannot tempt us beyond our means to resist. Thus, this implies that we WILLINGLY sin. If we willingly sin enough, we will NOT inherit the Kingdom. Whether you want to refer to this as "losing one's salvation" or "never having it in the first place" is semantics. The bottom line is that we won't enjoy heaven if we do not abide in Christ. (1 John 5:12 - today's reading in Catholic Churches)
I say that God knows the freedom of man, and it is to choose evil. It is our born nature.
I respectfully disagree. We, as men, have a TENDENCY to choose evil. However, even the pagan can choose good. As a Catholic, I believe that our will is damaged, our intellect is fogged. We cannot clearly see, nor can we willingly select the best course of action that leads us to God. Sometimes, we can. We tend towards evil. But that is a wounded nature. If we were evil by nature, we'd always choose the evil. Scripture points out some examples of people who choose good, for example, Abel.
If God awaits a response from us, when He already knows the (sometimes, bad) answer, how is this any less horrible than the God I have been describing throughout this whole thread? You seem to (correctly) admit that no chance is involved. Why does God "await"?
The Church has always taught that two choices lay before us (as Deuteronomy explains). To choose good or evil. Apparently, God condescends to allow us to choose. I presume this is out of His great Love for us. When you love, you do not force the other to love you back. God is magnanimous. His allowing us a choice points that much more to His greater glory. Since God is Love, God allows us this choice - to choose Him or not. If God's Love is unconditional, that means He continues to Love us, even if we reject Him (a difficult concept for us humans!). Thus, I cannot see God forcing to Love Him. Yes, He knows who will accept Him. However, He gives ALL men the chance to accept Him - since God desires all men to be saved. Since we know that some will not, we proclaim with the Church that these men have FREELY CHOSEN to reject God. God knows who these people are, as well. But foreknowledge doesn't mean He infallibly ordained those people to reject God.
If I know what the flip of a coin will be, does it follow that I caused it? Am I culpable by allowing it to occur, even though I know the result? In the end, God allows people to condemn themselves to hell - which further will show His great mercy and love. We will then see that each of them received opportunity, but rejected God.
Assume you never would have done this before your faith. Were you "forced"? I would say that if you did it, then yes.
I again disagree, based on my personal experience. There is always that "battle" in the conscience during such events. I don't feel "forced" to do good. My will is slowly being formed to do what Christ does. But it is not perfect. I continue to battle against the flesh, just as the "saved" Paul talks about in Romans 7. No, the battle is NEVER over until we are called to heaven. When I do good, God is moving within me my will and desire, but not infallibly. I still feel that I can say "no". But my will to good is stronger (most of the time!). Thus, I don't believe that God forces me to do good. He AIDS me to do good by transforming my damaged intellect and will. By examining our walk, don't we see that we are slowly becoming more like God? Do we perfectly obey Him just because we have been "saved"? That is not the experience of Christianity. Even the Scriptures see that Christians saved sometimes continue to sin. It's a battle that is not finished yet, brother.
Regards
Vatican 2 and other post-Vatican 2 documents have defined what exactly that means - it is not what you are implying. Would you like me to repost the explanation again?
Regards
This is an excellent post, JK. Forest Keeper, the icon I posted is a graphic demonstration of what Joe just wrote, showing Christ at the head of the Ladder, angels encouraging us and demons tempting us. Some, in the Icon its a couple of bishops, fall off the Ladder and into the Pit, others arrive at theosis.
I believe (correct me if I am wrong) your confusion on this issue is in part due to an incorrect notion of time.
For man, we are on a linear scale. Time moves forward with no possibility of going back (unless you like SF books). God is not that way. God sees all time as NOW! Thus, the Flood, the Incarnation, and World War 2 are all seen in the sweep of one eternal glance by God.
Perhaps this analogy will help (from Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange)
Imagine a huge mountain. Picture millions of people standing around this mountain, in single file, entirely circling this mountain. Each person represents one year of time in ascending order. Now. God has a bird's eye view from the top of the mountain. He sees all time (the people) simultaneously. Thus, what "year one - Adam" is doing is happening simultaneously as "year 4000 - the Incarnation" and "year 6000 - today".
What does this mean? God doesn't make a plan like we do. He doesn't start from "human day one" and then move things along. Since His view of time is different then ours, He "plans" in the NOW. Thus, our free-will decisions are PART of God's Plan, since it all occurs to Him right now.
It is a mystery. But I think it helps to explain a little the mystery of God's foreknowledge and God's ordination. That God knows the coin flip will be tails is taken into account. His plan takes our input and actions into account.
Regards
God is no respector of persons and shows no partiality. God saves each of us exactly like John the Baptist, Jeremiah and Paul. While we may not have been blinded going to Damascus, God has set us apart from the foundations of the world. He opens every Christian's heart up and calls us for His purpose. That purpose may be great or small but that is for God to decide.
Why he chose not to open Pharaoh's or Judas' heart is a mystery. He has His reasons I'm sure. But He uses everyone to accomplish His divine will.
Nebuchadnezzar was set apart by God to destroy Judah. Before Nebuchadnezzar was saved by God (Daniel 4), God called him His "servant" (Jer 43:10) - a distinction reserved for believers.
If you do please provide an explanation of the 12th Lateran Council, the Council of Trent and the Vatican 1 statements on those outside the Church and whether or not these have been rescinded. After all they came Ex Cathedra.
Are you saying that God allows evil to happen because He is sadistic? That He enjoys seeing people crushed? Isaiah HIMSELF disagrees with that
"And the Lord shall strike Egypt with a scourge, and shall heal it, and they shall return to the Lord, and he shall be pacified towards them, and heal them." (Is 19:22)
And Ezekiel:
"But if the wicked do penance for all his sins which he hath committed, and keep all my commandments, and do judgment, and justice, living he shall live, and shall not die. I will not remember all his iniquities that he hath done: in his justice which he hath wrought, he shall live. Is it my will that a sinner should die, saith the Lord God, and not that he should be converted from his ways, and live? But if the just man turn himself away from his justice, and do iniquity according to all the abominations which the wicked man useth to work, shall he live? all his justices which he hath done, shall not be remembered. In the prevarication, by which he hath prevaricated, and in his sin, which he hath committed, in them he shall die. (Ez 18:21-24)
Forget about "once-saved always-saved"...
God is "pleased" to discipline us because He knows a greater good will come from it. God disciplines those whom He loves - which includes all men. Unfortunately, all men do not take well to discipline...It is a monstrous idea you have of God, if I am reading you correctly. God allows evil to occur for a greater good to come from it. God does not desire that a man reject Him.
Regards
I already have done that. The Church holds to the fact that Baptism provides entrance into the Church. Since the Church does not rebaptize heretics (as long as the baptism was properly conducted with water in the name of the Trinity), it is clear that even those heretics who are baptized are part of the Church in some mysterious way. This was never abrogated by any of the Councils you named. Thus it is clear that you are misunderstanding the political nature of the Lateran Council, the polemics of Trent, and the initial definition of Church at Vatican 1 which was clarified at Vatican 2 (recall Vatican 1 ended before expected).
Regards
Well, I suppose that I am not going to win any argument with you on the finer points of what is, and is not donatism. All I know about it is that it was a breakaway movement from the RC Church (I think in Africa somewhere), and that it was characterized by the requirement of special moral purity among church leaders. I also have the impression that it is looked down upon by most people today for one reason or another.
So, what is important to distinguish is whether Baptists and donatists are really the same thing, or whether they simply share one, or a very few similarities. (Catholics and Protestants believe Christ is the Son of God. By no means are they the same faith.)
First of all, we have no "bearing fruit" test for baptism. I've never even heard of it among other Baptists.
If requiring that a formal member of a Baptist church actually be a believer in Christ somehow provides a fair comparison between Baptists and donatists then so be it. I don't know, but I do know that it is ridiculous to criticize a faith for requiring that members actually believe. How does this work in the Catholic Church? Could I just waltz in and be welcomed as a member, even if I held to my SB beliefs? My instinct tells me 'NO WAY'.
In fact, I'll bet that an outside candidate for membership in a Catholic church has to jump through a thousand more hoops to join than a similar candidate at my church. Which is the church of elitism?
Two questions on the icon you posted.
First, if the men falling off are bishops, was that inspired by St. John Chrysostom ("the way to hell is paved by the skulls of bishops"?!)
Second, is there an icon with Mary at the top of the ladder? I know some saints have had such visions of a ladder with her at the top. (like St. Francis of Assisi)
Brother in Christ
Thank you for clarifying that for me, I was confused. Perhaps my return insult is simply that based on all of your previous posts, it is impossible to tell when you are mocking, or insulting, or being sarcastic, or being rude, or when you are trying to present your honest views. Even after 500 posts of this, I will favor you by not taking you seriously because of how poorly you represent any true faith in Christ.
To a Protestant God people are but toys in God's workshop. And if your label does not say "elect" -- oh well!
Indeed, kosta50. Oh well.
I will write in simpler terms from now on lest I be misunderstood.
Yours in Christ - Forest.
You describe God as a casual observer who sees through time. Did God merely observe the flood, or did he cause it to occur?
Is God a casual observer of his creation, or an active participant?
BTW, are you expousing Catholic Theology here, or Jokus Theology?
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