Sorry, let me try again. Throughout the Scriptures, when God makes a covenant with man, He makes promises - not because He has to, but because He desires to. He binds Himself. We don't bind Him. He promises not to break His promise. But when we fail, He allows us to suffer the consequences of breaking the promise. Isn't that pretty clear in the Old Testament? If we part company with God in the New Covenant, God will again allow us to have what we desire - eternal life without Him. Thus, God's promises will not change - but He respects our decision to sin and even to turn away from Him. This freedom to sin is NOT removed when we become "saved".
Presumably, you mean "and lose your salvation". You just said that you have the power to snatch yourself out of God's hand. I would say that if your salvation was true, God would not let you do that.
The problem with "if your salvation was true" is that WE don't know, only God knows if we are truly of the flock that hears His voice. By placing the onus on yourself to determine if you are saved, you take away God's free will on who is of the elect, aren't you? Do you know any of your Protestant brothers who say that they do NOT have saving faith yet??? It seems to me that YOU are making the judgment on whether you are saved, not God
First, by external force, do you mean "yourself", as in above?
We are not an external force to ourselves. Only WE can cause our own demise - only we can "return to the vomit" of our former ways. No one can pry us from God's "hands" unwillingly. The devil is allowed to tempt us, but he cannot tempt us beyond our means to resist. Thus, this implies that we WILLINGLY sin. If we willingly sin enough, we will NOT inherit the Kingdom. Whether you want to refer to this as "losing one's salvation" or "never having it in the first place" is semantics. The bottom line is that we won't enjoy heaven if we do not abide in Christ. (1 John 5:12 - today's reading in Catholic Churches)
I say that God knows the freedom of man, and it is to choose evil. It is our born nature.
I respectfully disagree. We, as men, have a TENDENCY to choose evil. However, even the pagan can choose good. As a Catholic, I believe that our will is damaged, our intellect is fogged. We cannot clearly see, nor can we willingly select the best course of action that leads us to God. Sometimes, we can. We tend towards evil. But that is a wounded nature. If we were evil by nature, we'd always choose the evil. Scripture points out some examples of people who choose good, for example, Abel.
If God awaits a response from us, when He already knows the (sometimes, bad) answer, how is this any less horrible than the God I have been describing throughout this whole thread? You seem to (correctly) admit that no chance is involved. Why does God "await"?
The Church has always taught that two choices lay before us (as Deuteronomy explains). To choose good or evil. Apparently, God condescends to allow us to choose. I presume this is out of His great Love for us. When you love, you do not force the other to love you back. God is magnanimous. His allowing us a choice points that much more to His greater glory. Since God is Love, God allows us this choice - to choose Him or not. If God's Love is unconditional, that means He continues to Love us, even if we reject Him (a difficult concept for us humans!). Thus, I cannot see God forcing to Love Him. Yes, He knows who will accept Him. However, He gives ALL men the chance to accept Him - since God desires all men to be saved. Since we know that some will not, we proclaim with the Church that these men have FREELY CHOSEN to reject God. God knows who these people are, as well. But foreknowledge doesn't mean He infallibly ordained those people to reject God.
If I know what the flip of a coin will be, does it follow that I caused it? Am I culpable by allowing it to occur, even though I know the result? In the end, God allows people to condemn themselves to hell - which further will show His great mercy and love. We will then see that each of them received opportunity, but rejected God.
Assume you never would have done this before your faith. Were you "forced"? I would say that if you did it, then yes.
I again disagree, based on my personal experience. There is always that "battle" in the conscience during such events. I don't feel "forced" to do good. My will is slowly being formed to do what Christ does. But it is not perfect. I continue to battle against the flesh, just as the "saved" Paul talks about in Romans 7. No, the battle is NEVER over until we are called to heaven. When I do good, God is moving within me my will and desire, but not infallibly. I still feel that I can say "no". But my will to good is stronger (most of the time!). Thus, I don't believe that God forces me to do good. He AIDS me to do good by transforming my damaged intellect and will. By examining our walk, don't we see that we are slowly becoming more like God? Do we perfectly obey Him just because we have been "saved"? That is not the experience of Christianity. Even the Scriptures see that Christians saved sometimes continue to sin. It's a battle that is not finished yet, brother.
Regards
This is an excellent post, JK. Forest Keeper, the icon I posted is a graphic demonstration of what Joe just wrote, showing Christ at the head of the Ladder, angels encouraging us and demons tempting us. Some, in the Icon its a couple of bishops, fall off the Ladder and into the Pit, others arrive at theosis.
It's my understanding that in the normal course of use, the word "covenant" refers to a mutual agreement. That is, except for in the Bible. I thought that Biblical covenants were actually one-way promises from God, requiring nothing in return from man (e.g. the rainbow).
You said when we fall, God allows us to suffer the consequences of breaking the promise. How can we break a promise we never made, or, what was the promise we made that is broken when we fall?
I also respectfully disagree that God "respects" our decision to sin. I agree that He allows us to freely sin, but I doubt that He respects the choice.
The problem with "if your salvation was true" is that WE don't know, only God knows if we are truly of the flock that hears His voice. By placing the onus on yourself to determine if you are saved, you take away God's free will on who is of the elect, aren't you?
I would say that I have nothing to do with determining whether I am saved, only God does that. I say that I can know the truth of my salvation, accomplished by God, through His promises. By God's grace, I know the sincerity of the sinner's prayer I said, and I know the sincerity of my belief. Therefore, I know I can rely on God's promises. I know I am of the elect because I am able to have the faith I have. God gives this faith only to the elect.
Thus, this implies that we WILLINGLY sin. If we willingly sin enough, we will NOT inherit the Kingdom. Whether you want to refer to this as "losing one's salvation" or "never having it in the first place" is semantics.
OK, but this depends on how we define salvation, real or falsely supposed. I would say that true salvation, even IF only known by God, cannot be lost through subsequent sin because God would not allow it.
If we were evil by nature, we'd always choose the evil. Scripture points out some examples of people who choose good, for example, Abel.
If saved people can still occasionally sin, why can't the lost do good? The basic sinful nature, though, remains until salvation.
If I know what the flip of a coin will be, does it follow that I caused it?
If you are God, and only heads fulfills prophesy, then YES! :)
I don't feel "forced" to do good. My will is slowly being formed to do what Christ does. ... When I do good, God is moving within me my will and desire, but not infallibly.
I believe the Holy Spirit works in us, partly, through our consciences. Would you accept "compelled by conscience" instead of forced? On the last sentence, God does anything "not infallibly"?
Even the Scriptures see that Christians saved sometimes continue to sin. It's a battle that is not finished yet, brother.
I wouldn't say sometimes, I would say always. The battle does continue throughout life, but I believe the victory of salvation can be sure to the believer.
God bless you, my brother.