Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
He was young, and the young say many stupid things. I still say many stupid things, as far as that goes. Later in his life he seemed to understand more clearly, as many of us do. And I do think he was capable of introspection, and I will always love and relate to many of his songs, though almost none that he produced on his own.
Imagine, while pretty, extols the benefit of God not existing, which I do not in any way endorse. All that being said, I was quite saddened when he was shot, I was also saddened when George Harrison passed away.
Nobody in the rock and roll world understood melody like the Beatles. No rock and rollers could distill common themes quite like them. They were blessed by God, whether they believed in Him or not, Lennon and McCartney were geniuses.
By the way, do you think Paul McCartney wears a toupee?
Of course. It is an error to regard our liturgical work as meriting salvation, -- that would be a form of pelagianism, -- but it is equally an error to say that divine mercy is not moved by pleas for mercy. Let us remember that we do not go to mass to get anything, but rather to simply be at the hill of Golgotha.
Why is a discussion between Erasmus and Luther "clearly" for Protestants?
I think there is a need for space for every faith to discuss that faith in relative privacy. That goes for Protestants, Catholics, and sundry non-Christians. For example, when fine distinctions are made about the method of confession to priests, it becomes a distraction to discuss th every necessity of confessions. Likewise, when a discussion is about, say, Rick Warren books, it would be rude to interrupt it with comments that do not come from the same theological perspective as Rick Warren.
I don't think this thread is any such kind, and if it was, it lost its sectarian character long since I showed up (about 200 posts down).
Does God know the names of all the elect for all time at this very minute?
I need to make it clear that I do not shirk from any theological discussion about errors of Calvin, if only because his teaching has influence over souls today.
I lose my interest when opinions of Calvin about the history of the Papacy are brought forth. The man was a sworn enemy of the papacy. His opinion about history of the papacy is about as valuable as Ted Bundy's opinion on the history of US jurispridence.
Notwithstanding that, the Pentecost needs to be seen in the context of the promise of Pentecost in the four Gospels, that I posted. The promise was made to the eleven. The breathing of the Holy Ghost in Matthew was to the eleven. The commision to teach and baptize was to the eleven. The scripture in acts surely does not contradict this interpretation even if others received the Holy Ghost as well. Surely we think that the Blessed Virgin received the Holy Ghost, -- she was His spouse after all. But the pivotal thing is who got the Commission? The answer is, the eleven, plus St. Paul.
The Scripture does not say. I speculate, He does. But it does not mean we cannot alter the list tomorrow.
When I get older, losing my hair...NOT!
I still blame Yoko!
Do you? Why? You believe that it's already been decided from all eternity and that nothing you do can change that.
Yes, I do believe that. I would pray because I do not know the future. It is the same as if you were sick and I prayed for you to get better. God already knows whether you will or not, but it is still a perfectly legitimate prayer.
Me: As my Pastor has taught a thousand times, I do not have a religion, I have a relationship.
Did it ever occur to you that the word relationship does not exist in the Bible (save for the gender-neutral or rainbow ones perhaps)?
I will leave it to you to imply to the whole world that you have no relationship with Christ.
Me: Again, I don't come and say God CAN'T change His plan, I say He WON'T change His plan because He is God and would never need to.
And where do you find that in Scriptures that you may say what God will or will not do?
A thousand places, here are two:
Job 36:4 : "4 Be assured that my words are not false; one perfect in knowledge is with you."
Any plan conceived by one who is perfect in knowledge would not need to be changed.
Rom. 12:2 : " 2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will."
If what God wills is pleasing and perfect, then it does not need to be changed.
This is not a subject of how you "feel." Where does it say in Scriptures that only the "elect" are saved?
Sure sounds like the Scripture says that one man's suffering may help even the elect obtain salvation. What? Works of faith can affect the salvation of mankind, even the elect? Is that not a little contrary to your theology?
+Paul (Rom 3:10) clearly says that there are none who are righteous (in the Christian sense, because Gospels do mention the righteous in the Judaic sense). Since no one is born righteous in the Christian sense, Christ died for all, for every one of us, that is unrighteous, past, present and future; so that all may be saved.
This thread has shown me how the errors of Calvin pale in comparison to the errors I have seen posted on this thread by those who are critical of him.
But feel free to criticize him all you want. I've been known to do that too.
(2) that, according to your theology, we are not to be judged according to our deeds (Mat 16:27), as the Scripture clearly states, but divinely preordained to heaven or hell. Your beliefs hold that, just as no amount of good works glorifying God can benefit your salvation, no amount of evil can condemn you, and send you to hell. In that case, everyone's is God's "elect." Just the roles are opposite!
(3) If God is the author of everything good and evil then repentance, of which the Bible is full, is a meaningless "ritual". Since God already knows how you feel, and since everything you do is done because you are only doing God's will, repentance becomes a nonsense.
(4) If everything was preordained, from the beginning and is preprogrammed until the end, why did Christ die for the unrighteous when the unrighteous are unrighteous by God's hands? In this case God is redeeming us from Himself!
(5) Thus the redemption becomes an oxymoron, because humanity has been prepackaged in an inflexible and rigid, even morbid Reformed choreography of God's Plan (never did find that word in Scripture).
(6) What God set out to do, He has already accomplished. God is not building new worlds. His job is done: because He is here and yesterday and at the end of times all at once. Surely His plan stands finished at the end of times. I am not changing perspectives, but you seem to be confusing His eternal nature with our temporal world.
(7) And if God is involved in our lives I beg to know why (from your Protestant point of view). He preordained what will be and nothing will change (because it's perfect as you say), so God is rendered less than omnipotent by being subject to necessity!
(8) You pray because you don't know, but why not just resign yourself to saying that whatever happens to me is what God decided -- it is merciful and just, for mercy will triumph over judgment (Jam 2:13). If everything has been predetermined, each step and each word we make and utter, why would He be in our lives?
You see, there is a big contradiction in what you are saying: God has preordained everything, yet He intervenes in our lives?
Take that pitiful man, Pat Robertson, for example -- his latest "pearl" is that God is punishing Ariel Sharon for selling Israel (because Israel is His land)! First, Israel means people of God and God never intended it to mean only Hebrews. But, I must wonder, on whose account and by whose will is Ariel Sharon selling Israel that he is being punished when God, according to you and your cohorts, is in full control of Mr. Sharon -- and, by the same "logic" -- Mr. Sharon is doing "God's" work by selling Israel, according to the Reformed theology that is.
I have faith in Christ. He is my Lord and my God. Inasmuch as He was Incarnate fully Man, I am related to Him in human nature. As a Man, he was perfect and I am not. Inasmuch as He is fully God, His essence is unlike anything that was created. Inasmuch as His love for me and all of humanity is concerned, mine is so minuscule compared to His that it would be arrogant and pretentious to call it a "relationship." Inasmuch as His gift and sacrifice is concerned, mine is next to nothing in comparison. I worship Him, and I love Him, imperfectly as it may be.
No, I don't have a relaitonship with Christ. Just faith in Him.
So, God is a captive of His own perfection, subject to necessity (of your logic)?
How can a perfect God not be perfectly free to do what He wants? The Scripture shows that He is and that He does change His mind: "And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart?" (Gen 6:6)
So much for your logic.
I believe that is Augustinian Theology as well. And Pat Robertson is no Calvinist. I can guarantee you that! So your argument begins with a false premise.
The fact is that God is in control, especially when it comes to heads of state. The bible is clear on that subject:
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will. (Proverbs 21:1 KJV)
So if Ariel Sharon is selling the Land of Israel, then it is all a part of God's eternal plan. and if Ariel Sharon suffers a stroke, then it is all part of God's eternal plan. God is not surprised nor is God's plan subject to constant revision.
Carry on.
Does it matter? I thought Protestants folow their own, personal, understanding of Scripture and not someone else's. Calling yourself a Calvinist is really somewhat misleading, don't you think? Pat Roberston is a Protetsant! All you Protestants share the notion of sola scriptura and therefore all your errors are equal, no matter what your label is.
If Sharon is doing "God's work" by selling Israel, why is he being "punished" by God, as Pat suggests?
I don't know if that is true. My church follows the "tradition" that the Bible is the inerrant inspired word of God and that in it's original letters it was perfect. After all, it was the work of the Holy Spirit.
If Sharon is doing "God's work" by selling Israel, why is he being "punished" by God, as Pat suggests?
I don't know, I think you should ask Pat. I believe he did have some scriptural basis for his position. I haven't researched the subject, but I suspect that it was God's will that Sharon suffer a stroke. I don't know why and I'm not going to speculate. Maybe because it was just his time to suffer one, or maybe because it will set up some chain of events leading to the coming of the Lord in glory. I don't know.
BTW, if it was God will that he NOT suffer a stroke, then I am confident that he would not have suffered a stroke.
The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Do you believe that?
God is not surprised, but where do you get the idea that His pan is not subject to constant changes? And why not? An omnipotent God can do whatever He wills. One way to look at His plan is to say that the end is known, but how we get there is left up to God to decide. An omnipotent God, who is perfectly free, can choose at His will an infinite number of possibilities of how to reach the end. The Bible is full of exmaples where repentance and God's mercy changes that which seemed inevitable.
Carry on? Oh, yes sir, massa, thank you.
But you still subscribe to the sola scriptura, which is about the only thing the Protestants have in common, so what you present as "theology" with or without a fancy name of one of your personal heroes (i.e. Calvinism), is really just your personal opinion -- theologiumena we would say in the Eastern parlance.
The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Do you believe that?
My point about Sharon being "punished" is that it is a nonsense. If Sharon is simply doing God's work then why is he being "punished?" Punishment comes from misbehavior, trespass, offense. If I am carrying out the orders of my superiors, where is the offense?
The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Do you believe that?
Yes I do. Our life is not ours to keep. It's a loan, not a gift. :-)
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