Bishop restores Latin Mass (Phoenix)

East Valley Tribune ^ | 06.21.05 | Lawn Griffiths

[el_chupacabra]

Bishop restores Latin Mass
By Lawn Griffiths, Tribune
June 21, 2005
The Old Mass has regained critical mass in the Roman Catholic Diocese of Phoenix. The one-year experiment to determine whether enough Valley Catholics wanted Masses in Latin — the mother tongue of the church — has ended.
And Bishop Thomas Olmsted has declared Latin a winner. The response to a first year of "Tridentine liturgy" or Latin Masses at St. Thomas the Apostle Catholic Church in east Phoenix has been so strong that Olmsted is making them permanent, and extending the special Masses to more parishes. After July 1, a Tridentine Mass will be offered Sundays at St. Augustine in Phoenix, which has a largely Hispanic congregation. For Catholics in the northern parts of the diocese, a Latin Mass will be on Sundays at St. Cecilia’s Catholic Church in Clarkdale. The Phoenix diocese had gone 35 years without traditional Latin Masses in wake of the sweeping reforms ushered in by Vatican Council II (1962-65). Changes implemented in 1969 included turning priests around to face their parishioners instead of the altar, new music instead of Gregorian chants and Masses in the congregation’s native tongue instead of Latin. But some traditionalists resented changes and appealed for a return to the Old Mass, with its cadences and rhythms. More than 1,300 Catholics packed into St. Thomas the Apostle, 2312 E. Campbell Ave., Phoenix, on June 6, 2004, for the return of the Latin Mass. They heard phrases like "Sanctus, sanctus, Dominus Deus Sabaoth" instead of "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God of Hosts." Some came with their old Latin missals. People showed up that day out of both "piety and curiosity," said the Rev. Greg Kotnis of Sun City, who conducted the Mass. "Surprisingly, there were many young people, too. The old people were nostalgic for the old message," he said. "It is the Mass of the ages," said Michael Malone, whose wife Ann and seven children regularly attend the Mass at 1 p.m. Sundays at St. Thomas. "It’s been the succor of countless saints, and for us, my wife and my family, it expresses the best sense of the sacred, the mystery and the sacrifice of the Mass." The Phoenix man said more than 300 Catholics come from across the Valley, driving up to an hour each way, to take part in the Mass where the priest faces the altar, chants resound from a choir and altar boys hold prayer together at the foot of the altar before the formal Mass starts. It carries the tradition of receiving the Holy Eucharist on the tongue instead in the hand. Women commonly wear veils or mantillas. Rick Severs of Scottsdale, who went to that first Mass, never went back. "I did enjoy that, and it really brought back a lot of childhood memories, with the Latin songs and responses," he said. "But it is like anything else, you accept change slowly but once change comes, you don’t want to go back. You see how the change was really good." Olmsted has given the special community of Latin Masses at St. Thomas the Apostle Catholic Church "mission" status, putting it in line to be a possible Latin parish someday. He has named the mission "Mater Misericordiae," which means "Mother of Mercy." Rev. Alonso Saenz was named pastor, and he also will continue serving St. Augustine Parish in west Phoenix. Saenz will be assisted by the Rev. Stephane Dupre, a French priest with the Fraternity of St. Peter, now working in the Diocese of Sacramento (Calif.). Dupre will arrive July 1 and live at St. Augustine. Priests with enough experience in officiating Latin Masses may do so, but the number is limited in the diocese. The Rev. R. Clements, pastor of St. Mary’s Catholic Parish in Chandler, holds occasional Tridentine Masses and recently conducted a funeral in the Old Rite. "He wore the black vestments and turned his back to the congregation," said parishioner Mary Douglas. "He is very traditional and very devout."
Contact Lawn Griffiths by email, or phone (480) 898-6522

Purchase this article for reprint. Click here for options. Copyright 2005 East Valley & Scottsdale Tribune Freedom Communications, Inc.

[bigsigh]

you come from a breast feeding tradition congrats!

The comparison to breast feeding for life vs talking to people in their language is catchy, but not a good analogy for the reason you indicated. It's a nice try and maybe slightly witty, but illogical.

What is the purpose of talking and reading to people from the latin liturgy? To make romans happy. To enforce the authority of rome? To say, oh this is our fine tradition or to make some with aristocratic needs feel satiated? The time has passed and those who long for the mass of their childhood are pathetic and a nuisance at best.

[bigsigh]

I read your part about being too dumb for college. nuff sed about that. Remember self-admission is the first step to redemption.

You might also ask yourself if you want to be in the obsessive wing of the FR like the others who take every phrase and address a reply.

Et tu?

[bigsigh]

Yeah it must have been primative when the apostles were able to address people in their own language. Those neanderthals must have been shocked.

[bigsigh]

never said I wanted to limit to the original practice. If you need to hear the mass in latin, then enjoy. Said don't steal the word tradition and pretend something was meant to be that way. God was pretty clear in the new testamont on that point. That's what I said.

[bigsigh]

I don't hang around any religious forums. Just try to shine the light when I see someone stumbling over the truth. If you need someone to be here I suggest you recruit in the kool aid line.

[Gerard.P]

What makes you think you have to hear the Mass in any language in order to participate?

I just posted this to someone else yesterday on another thread.

In the TLM the priest isn't meant to be heard at every step of the Mass (least of all the consecration).

Pretending that the faithful "need" to hear the Mass is indicative of a lack of understanding of what the Mass is.

[Pyro7480]

The fact that you have been banned 6 times says enough for me.

[bigsigh]

.............to clarify I was responding to what the poster said "defined the Latin Mass as the Mass for all time." You might address your correction to the person who made the mistake.

[bigsigh]

yeah, you should probably stay away from me.

[Pyro7480]

The Gospel does need to be preached in every language. That was one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit to the infant Church. However, the early Christians realized pretty early on that in order to preserve doctrinal and theological teachings, particularly concerning proper worship, it is good to use languages that are "dead," such as Greek, Latin, classical Arabic, Aramaic, and Old Slavonic.

[bigsigh]

Strange question, here's the well, duhhh! answer. In order to consciously participate one would have to know what one is doing and understand the context and what is going on. Unless one is an automaton.

Don't go there. I already addressed reading in a previous post.

[bigsigh]

you're right, the Gospel doesn't NEED anything. It's the people who need to understand, as God showed in the new testament. Is this a difficult concept or do you often speak to others who speak a languiage you don't understand?

[bigsigh]

This old heathen is off. Adios!

[B Knotts]

The Roman Missal developed over the course of nearly two millennia.

The newer version of the Missale Romanum is still perfectly valid, but lacks a certain organicity in its development, while the traditional version was organically developed over all those many years.

The universal language of the Church is Latin, and has been since fairly early on. The continued use of Latin, in any of the versions of the Roman Missal, in addition to being normative, is indicative of the universality of the Church.

[Pyro7480]

Preaching is preaching, worship is worship. Get the picture?

[B Knotts]

Let me also reemphasize that both the older and newer versions of the Mass in the Roman Rite are in Latin.

The allowance for the vernacular is a separate issue from the particular Missal used (except that the vernacular is only authorized for the 1970 Missal, as far as I know).

[te lucis]

I read your part about being too dumb for college. nuff sed about that. Remember self-admission is the first step to redemption.

I don't know what "self-admission" is. Told you I was dumb.

You might also ask yourself if you want to be in the obsessive wing of the FR

I don't know what "the FR" is. Again, Dumb.

like the others who take every phrase and address a reply.

Do I do that?

Et tu?

I don't speak Latin.

[ninenot]

In the near future you will become aware of recent Prot scholarship on the nature of the Pauline letters.

Among other things, the Prot scholars are discovering that Paul was concerned with local audiences UNTIL it became clear that the Church was decidedly not "local."

Besides its implications (all negative) for Luther's glosses, it also addresses your flip commentary.

[biggersigh]

My breast feeding analogy was not meant to be a direct comparison, but rather was meant to show how origins do not establish tradition.

Latin was not always a dead language. It was, because of Roman authority, a widely known language. Incidentally, Romans hated Christians, killed and persecuted them en masse, so to say that using latin was to appease them is foolish. The only thing that would have appeased the Romans would be no mass at all. One of the four marks of the Church is that it is catholic with a small c, meaning universal. So establishing the mass in a language that people in Europe and the Middle Eastern countries (for the most part) would understand, namely latin, was a very good and practical idea.

All that aside, the argument for the traditional mass is not just that it is in latin. It is that its language is far superior. Even if the traditional mass was spoken in English (or the vernacular of whatever place), the beauty of the prose goes far and beyond that of the basic "worship" of the Novus Ordo mass.

As for my pathetic self, I am 23. I do not long for the mass of my childhood, I long for the mass of my Church.

[murphE]

Great new tag line, I just noticed it. =D