A Theory of God

Neoperspectives ^ | 1/23/05

[WriteOn]

Oh, and if you point me at that wretch Alex Green, et. al. I'll know the emperor has no clothes.

BTW,

How does your mathematics refute the Kalam? (Bearing in mind, Occam's Razor does no more than a glancing blow to it's logic...)

[traviskicks]

Oh! Ok, I see what you are saying. Then we are in complete agreement.

[traviskicks]

I consider myself Buddhist in the same way I consider myself Christian. I guess by the strict criteria of some on both sides I am neither! But why should I let them define my beliefs? :)

[Safrguns]

Oh! Ok, I see what you are saying. Then we are in complete agreement.

Yes... as long as you didn't interpret what I was saying as universalism. I don't believe people can find Jesus through other religions. If you look deeply enough into all different religions, you will find that there are only two different faiths... works and Grace. Christianity is the ONLY Grace based faith there is. All others are based upon the works of man or 'earning' one's way to heaven. Once a person comes to the realization that there is nothing they can do to save themselves, and look to God for forgiveness, they will find the open door.

[traviskicks]

As far as the murder example, I think you could refute him with any of the world's religions - besides perhaps Satanism :)

I don't think we know how creation began, so it's hard to disprove something which we can't qualify - a bit like atheists saying they don't believe in God.

Buddhists say the universe has always been, Christians believe it was created. Science hasn't a clue. Scientists aren't even sure whether the Universe will die a 'cold death' - expand forever or a 'hot death' contract back into a singularity. I believe current theory is leaning towards the cold death, but I don't really trust 'em!

This may also be a case of semantics.

And on the last point, Buddhists do evangelicalize. Some do not, others believe they can achieve enlightenment quicker by spreading the word and helping others. I tend to side with the later.

I don't understand religions that don't evangelicize. If you believe so strongly in something and it is so great then wouldn't you want to spread it to everyone? If I believed, as some Christians seem to, that only through Christ (ie physical/historical/narrow definition of Christ, not the broader/idea/teachings of Christ) can one get salvation, and I truly believed this with all my heart - I could not pass by someone on the street in good Conscience! I would shout His name from every doorway and rooftop and harrass friends and family to the point where they would either convert or get restraining orders against me. I mean, we're talking about eternal Hell!

It is telling that we don't see this happen very often...

[traviskicks]

ok. Well let me then ask you this question.

If a Hindu who has never heard of Jesus - say he lives in a small village with no communication - does the things you say, asks God for forgivness, prostrates himself as sinner, believes in all the teachings and 'idea' of Jesus, but doesn't call Jesus by His name and still considers himself a Hindu and practices it's traditions, can he still find the open door?

My answer is that many religions DO practice and believe similar ideas to the Christian religion, but call them something else. Many Christians call themselves Christians, but don't practice or believe or preach or even understand or know what it is that TRUE Christianity represents (not that I purport to be an expert myself!). So, a Hindu can be more Christian then a Christian. Strange? Only because we are trained to sterotype and believe labeling/shallow definitions.

And that is interesting your comparison of Grace and Works. In fact, it fits with Science in the way that genetics and environment do 'constrict us' as to what individuals we become. We still seem to have free will, but it seems a bit limited by all these things. Judgement by works is a bit unfair considering innate handicaps, etc.. Judgement by Grace, faith, or some 'undefined inconceivable fromula' seems much fairer. Funny how academics don't pick up on this... :)

[Jay777]

Jesus never said he was the father. Jesus was the son. If you have seen the son, you have seen the father, for Jesus showed you the father through his actions...the father was within him. And the father is within all of us if you look for him.

[Jay777]

This brings us to my question. Would an all merciful, all forgiving God send a devout Buddist, or Hindu to hell for eternity if they had never heard of Christ? We have been taught all our life that Christ is the only way. Many other religions teach that same philosophy...that this is the only way. So, what if this devout Hindu doesn't accept Christ, after hearing about Him once, because he fears his own gods will punish him for leaving the "only way" that he has been taught?

[traviskicks]

Your question reminds me a bit of my readings on some of the early explorers who 'converted' the natives to Christianity. The natives were so struck by the superior technology that they assumed that this was becasue of the Christians superior God. The natives then called themsevles Christians, worshiped Jesus and built crosses etc.., but were they really Christians? Half the time the explorers didn't even understand what they were evagelicizing.

In the situation your describing, the name of Jesus, if not accompanied by anything else is completely useless. The same with the historical/physical/narrow definition of Jesus. If you tell a Hindu that someone was born who was the son of God and died for our sins it means nothing. How can he accept it and why should he believe you? But if you tell him what this man SAID only then will important information be exchanged. If you tell him all the teachings of Jesus, only then might he ask, "That is truly amazing, who WAS this man who spoke so?"

If the Hindu is taught about the idea of Jesus and IF it is different then what he already knows from Hinduism, then I would say he does have a choice to make. He can either incorporate Christianity into his religion, convert to Christianity and completely leave his religion, or ignore Christianity.

If he ignores what he has learned then his Conscience will surly bother him.

But.... if a fully practicing goodly Christian meets a Buddhist who offers to teach a meditative technique that relaxes and increases wellness, and the Christian does it and finds it to be a wonderful experience, but then shies away from it because he feels it is incompatable with Christianity - This person will be bothered by his Conscience the same way the Hindu would.

In other words, the Goodness found within us - God - directs us towards His will and what is good for us. If we interpret religion in a way that is in conflict with this then that religion, or more accurately, our interpretation of it, is failing us.

[Jay777]

You've been a very interesting person to discuss religion with. I would like to hear what you think of some of the subjects I mentioned to research. The Essenes and whether Jesus was one, the Kabbalah and tree of life, The Great White Brotherhood, and the magi. It would also be interesting to hear your thoughts on reincarnation, hell, the gnostic gospels, the Council of Nicea in reference to the trinity, and your thoughts on how astrology, numerology, magic, and zoastrianism influenced the development of the Bible. I'm particularly interested in the concepts that astrology teach in reference to reincarnation.

[Jay777]

Also, what are your thoughts in the realm of a collective concioussness, and world development, soul evolution and progress? Still want to hear your thoughts on Adam Kadmon. Can you do some research and get back to me?

[Safrguns]

My answer is that many religions DO practice and believe similar ideas to the Christian religion, but call them something else. Practice = works. The bible says that even the demons believe in Jesus, but even that cannot save them. See Titus 3:5 and Matthew 7:22-23 If a Hindu who has never heard of Jesus - say he lives in a small village with no communication - does the things you say, asks God for forgivness, prostrates himself as sinner, believes in all the teachings and 'idea' of Jesus, but doesn't call Jesus by His name and still considers himself a Hindu and practices it's traditions, can he still find the open door? Your analogy does not fit what I was saying... however in short, the answer is no. In order to explain why, I need to parse your analogy into 3 sections: 1. Asks God for forgiveness and prostrates himself as a sinner. THIS is what I was saying. However, before this conviction can be truly heart felt, One would have to recognize that his/her current path is not cutting the mustard... The emptiness from the guilt of sin is still present... and there is a recognition that we are not capable of measuring up to God's standard. When this happens, it is my point that God (Jesus) WILL reveal Himself to that person, whether it be by missionary, literature, or direct revelation through dreams or even a near or full death experience. 2. ...believes in all the teachings and 'idea' of Jesus, but doesn't call Jesus by His name... Again, we are not saved by what teachings we follow. This is works. A man approached Jesus who had much (very rich) and asked what he could do to attain eternal life. Jesus asked him about his walk in righteousness. The man replied that he had kept all the commandments and the law. Jesus told him to go sell all that he had and to follow Him. The man could not comply and left disappointed, because he placed more faith and love into what he had, than what he did not have. It is interesting though to note, that this is also where Jesus said (after the guy left) that it was easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter into heaven. Many people interpret this to mean 'impossible'... However, that is not true. The "eye of the needle" was a phrase or term used to refer to a small passageway in the rear or side of a city's walls which was big enough for people or horses, but too small for camels. However, merchants were often required to use these entrances anyway. In order to get their camel through the eye of the needle, they had to unload any burdens the animal was carrying, and then force the animal to kneel as it moved through the doorway. Interesting huh? 3. ...still considers himself a Hindu and practices it's traditions. This would not happen with a person who has truly met Jesus. When a person has truly found the Lord through humility and total reliance upon God (point 1), a spiritual blindfold is lifted. The person would realize that the teachings of Hinduism and it's traditions are opposed to the concept of Grace based salvation, even though there are many sound moral principles that are observed. This is why one cannot find Jesus through other religions. Not by works but by Grace... that NO man may boast. Judgement by works is a bit unfair considering innate handicaps, etc.. Judgement by Grace, faith, or some 'undefined inconceivable fromula' seems much fairer. Funny how academics don't pick up on this... :) Hmmm... Interesting you brought up the fairness... This is the spiritual blindfold I was speaking of. We want to do it OUR way... Man considers himself sufficient in all things... and of course, it doesn't sound just that a righteous man (in the eyes of man) would be condemed to hell for nothing... but again, if we are not saved by our works, we are not condemed for them either. The truth of the matter is that we are born dead because of Adam's sin, and remain dead because of our own pride. (which is sin)

[traviskicks]

Very cool about the needle! No, I didn't know that.

I think I now fully understand your position. Our positions are somewhat close to each other, but there is still a bit of space between us. I guess that part is just something we will have to agree to disagree about.

And I agree speculation about judgement is relatively useless. After all, 'judge not, lest ye be judged.'

[traviskicks]

I have enjoyed the interesting and stimulating discussions on this thread. I will have to take some time to read into some of those things you speak of, I really don't know enough about them to feel confident in any opinionating on them.

[Jay777]

Thats fine. Would you mind getting back to me? Would like to hear someone elses thoughts who thinks in the same realm. Did you ever say what you thought about Elijah being John the Baptist reincarnated?

[Safrguns]

And I agree speculation about judgement is relatively useless.

Ummm... I could have said this, but I don't remember where.
In the wrong context, this statement could be incorrect.

It's important to note that there is a BIG difference between condemnation vs salvation, and judgement. There are different forms of judgment, and believe me... you don't want to be one who is judged according to his works... So please don't waste any time figuring out who Jesus really is. There's not much time left.

[traviskicks]

Sure, I'll check some of those out and get back to you. Which one would you put priority on being the most interesting?

I think that one has to be careful about focusing on questions that are too specific. For example, I have no idea whether John the Baptist was Elijah or not. I think that the most important information is found in understanding the deeper patterns and truths. From there it might be easier to then answer more specific questions. In dealing with John the Baptist, the first question I would ask is whether the Future can be predicted, the nature of randomness and predetermination etc..

If fundemental building blocks of a problem can't be known by reason and logic then it is difficult to think about more 'microlevel applications'.

And, as some have said in this thread, sometimes one just has to go on faith or feeling etc... to find answers. My bid problem with this is that you cannot then communicate this knowledge to anyone else in a way that they will believe you - cuz you have no evidence besides your own faith/feeling. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it's just a difficult thing to have discussions about.

[traviskicks]

This is the spiritual blindfold I was speaking of.
We want to do it OUR way... Man considers himself sufficient in all things...
---

I took this to mean that deliberations on judgement is not a clear cut thing becasue the concept is innately difficult for us to comprehend and understand, something I concur with. Obviously you have ideas on how this works, but it seems to me that one can interpret what is in the bible in different ways. I was discussing my 'views' on it with this premise in the background.

As far as finding Jesus - We can only all try to do our best and get to know Him and/or God as well as we can! I think you will concur that reasoning and logical thinking only gets you so far...

[traviskicks]

And yes, I would like to hear your views on some of those things. (or were you speaking of someone else?)

[Safrguns]

OH... ok... thank you. You did misread me.
I was expanding upon what you said about grace based salvation being more fair than works based salvation. You were absolutely correct in this assessment. God IS just and perfectly fair... but man cannot see this truth because of his pride in self accomplishment. It goes back to us needing to recognize that we cannot live up to God's standard. Our only hope is in Jesus who paid the price for our sin in our stead.

Yes... reasoning and logic can only take us so far.
It is now time for you to take that leap of faith.