A Theory of God

Neoperspectives ^ | 1/23/05

[traviskicks]

A metaphysical exploration of Religion, Consciousness, Free Will, Randomness, and, ultimately, the nature of God. Neuroscience, networking (of man, God, and governments), and AI computing are all discussed.

A Theory of God

God has never been defined to the satisfaction of rational man. Indeed, even His very existence has never been universally acknowledged. From Thomas Aquinas's famous '5 proofs of God' (3) and the writings of other great philosophers of the catholic church, to the tautological hierarchical constructions of modern philosophers (1), there has never been a logical argument strong enough to force all the atheists and agnostics of the world to believe.

It has been said that men are only truly passionate about things that are not innately obvious to everyone. (2) The bitter and acrimonious debate over the curvature of the earth that took place in the 15th Century would today be met with laughter and derision because the fact that the earth is a sphere is so obvious to nearly everyone. Although any one religion, or even God Himself, is not universally accepted in the same way, a large majority of people across the world profess a belief in God (over 90% of Americans believe in God (68), (69) ).

However, we must also consider that the vague definitions of God may contribute to His apparent non-universal acknowledgement. If we can't define what something is then how can people communicate their belief in it? It is most interesting is that this lack of definition is present across nearly all the world's religions:

Christianity/Judaism: I am that I am. (Exodus 3, 14) You cannot see my face; for man shall not see me and live. (Exodus 33:20)

[traviskicks]

If there is no such thing as randomness then there can be no free will - because unpredictable living things will create randomness. So then the universe is predetermined.

That is why I ask whether randomness and free will are one and the same... or contribute to each other, or have a common microscopic anscestor, or are related etc...

[beavus]

There are three important points:

(1) Regardless of what theories people have regarding the existence of free will, it appears as though it exists.

(2) Regardless of what theories people have regarding the existence of randomness, it appears as though it exists.

(3) There is empirical evidence that free will and randomness do exist, and there is no logical proof that free will and randomness do not exist.

Determinists think they have deduced that randomness and free will do not exist. However, those arguments are not tautologies and therefore are not conclusive, though obviously they are strong enough to persuade determinists.

The appearance of free will and randomness qualify as empirical evidence, and thus will remain open to question until they are observed to be false (e.g. the apparent random events are explained deterministically). They can never be proven (in the mathematical sense) to exist.

Almost all meaningful knowledge of the world is evidence-dependent. Thus, the existence of randomness in the empirical world can never be more certain than our most certain observations.

So, the free will-determinism debate may never advance any futher.

There is speculation that true randomness, as apparently seen in certain quantum phenomena, may be the basis of free will.

[traviskicks]

I agree entirely with everything you say. I especially like the qualifications that you premise your statements with.

If randomness and free will are linked very closely and such things as weather patterns, water swirlings etc.. contain randomness then we are opening the door to either a Massive Universal Conscious entity - aka God - who may be in some way be influencing this phenomena, or a strange kind of small spontaneous free will that isn't additive or scalar, except when arranged in the physical structures that make up our brains.

I don't know that we can really speculate on which is more likely... I guess there could be both at the same time too - all these little randomnesses which are out of the control of God, but still add together to make up His Volition at a more macro level. This is kinda like us and our brains, which has been a general theme of the linked paper.

[Safrguns]

One question that I haven't heard answered is, that if Christ is the only key to heaven, then what happened to all those before Him? It is true that Christianity did not begin until the life,death, and resurrection of Jesus. However, the biblical promise of a savior had it's beginnings with Adam, when God told him that a Savior would be sent. Those who went before Christ were believers in God's savior to come, or they were not. It was the same faith which could save them then which can save us now. What about those who could never hear of Him? This was one of the reasons for my original post. The bible refers to mountains of evidence given to man of His existence. It also refers to God's implanting of a -basic- knowledge of God in every man's heart which is more or less why over 90% of the population believes in Him in one way or another. That's what I found interesting about this article... This guy has written a 'Theory of God' which wrestles with why man even thinks about God in the first place... and my answer was that this conscious 'drive' to find God is no accident... it is part of that which gives no man an excuse.

[Safrguns]

Buddah never rejected Christ being that he died hundreds of years before Jesus was even born. He had never heard Jesus teachings to reject. You are correct... I should have said that he rejected God.

[jdhighness]

I think we have much agreement. I would just note that, as I interpret Christ's message, you must constantly analyze your behavior and, in contrast to Buddhism, see if it is consistent to the objective morality Christ demands.

Also, I don't see why you must deeply evaluate yourself in Buddhism because, if you believe you are right, you will phase into a better existence in the next life. So, if you are a murderer and you truly believe you are justified because, say, you are ridding the world of the weak--how would you be wrong?

If I may, here are some examples of what I'm talking about regarding self-analysis and "knowing thy self":

---

Matt 6:22
22"Your eye is a lamp for your body. A pure eye lets sunshine into your soul. 23But an evil eye shuts out the light and plunges you into darkness. If the light you think you have is really darkness, how deep that darkness will be!"

I believe light means wisdom gleamed from God. Jesus says only the humble and righteous ever learn from God.

---

Matt 19:28
28And Jesus replied, "I assure you that when I, the Son of Man, sit upon my glorious throne in the Kingdom,[g] you who have been my followers will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has given up houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or property, for my sake, will receive a hundred times as much in return and will have eternal life. 30But many who seem to be important now will be the least important then, and those who are considered least here will be the greatest then.[h]

So even if you might think you are good now, you may not be objectively (IE to Jesus/God).

---

There is the narrow gate.

Matt 7:

13"You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell[d] is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way. 14But the gateway to life is small, and the road is narrow, and only a few ever find it.

Presumably, most people operate on the assumption that their behavior is acceptable and, if they believe in an afterlife, that they will someday see it. Jesus is saying that--in a time which most thought they were religious for following their interpretation of God's law--they really are destined to failure because they did not interpret it or implement it correctly.


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Lastly, Matt 7:21

21"Not all people who sound religious are really godly. They may refer to me as `Lord,' but they still won't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The decisive issue is whether they obey my Father in heaven. 22On judgment day many will tell me, `Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.' 23But I will reply, `I never knew you. Go away; the things you did were unauthorized.[e]'


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You are a very rational person and I eagerly await your response, at your leisure of course ;)

[Jay777]

Perhaps he speaks of Elijah coming first again in his second coming. Perhaps Elijah is one of the two witnesses in Revelations. Some think so. They think the other is Moses, and reference to Jude where Lucifer and Michael fight over the body of Moses. Also the miracles that are performed by the two witnesses were only done by these two prophets, to turn water to blood(Moses) and to stop the rains(Elijah).

[Jay777]

What reference is there that Buddah rejected God?

[Jay777]

One question that I haven't heard answered is, that if Christ is the only key to heaven, then what happened to all those before Him?

I believe I have heard some kind of dogma of Christ descending to hell and taking the keys of death away from lucifer during the three days before the resurection. That he set the captives free. I believe there are many theories on this, such as we wait in the grave until resurrection. I believe in reincarnation however. I think this life is a school. My rationale is that an ALL merciful, ALL loving, INFINITELY forgiving father, would give His own children INFINITE chances to figure out that all is one, and one is all. To me hell is a state of mind allowing you to be trapped in the material world, under the chains and slavery of selfish sin. It is only eternal if we do not repent, and overcome sin through the sacrifice of Christ, and repeat his example spiritually by crucifying the selfish self, and ressurecting the God within. Those who lived before Christ are judged by different standards than those who lived during and after Him.

[Jay777]

For some interesting research look into the Essenes. This was a sect of Judaism that many believed Jesus was from. They taught baptism instead of animal sacrifice. The other two sects are more well known, the sadducies and the pharisees. Many believe the Gospels are told from the view point of the essenes. Also look into the history of the three magi, the tree of life in the kabbalah, and Christian mysticism. An interesting book to read is the Aquarian Gospel.

[traviskicks]

Regarding the question about salvation about those who could not know Jesus.

We have to remember that Judaism and Zoathericism (the two basic monotheistic religions) were only present in a very small area of the world at the time of Jesus. Because of a lack of information exchange between different areas, large segments of the world could NOT have known about Jesus or his coming. Even after Christ, there was NO POSSIBLE way anyone in, say, South America, North America or Japan could know of His message despite their best efforts. Today, tribes in rainforests and remote islands CANNOT, despite their best efforts know the physical teachings of Jesus Christ.

Christians who believe Salvation lies ONLY through Jesus Christ are condmening all of these people to hell. Quite heartless really, not to mention irrational.

Now, there are a few ways we can address this.

The first is semantic. If Jesus Christ = goodness, compassion, God etc.. then knowing the physical Jesus Christ is not as important as knowing the IDEA of Jesus Christ. These semantic differences, I think, are a major source of conflict in metaphysical ponderings.

Secondly, that we have no idea how people are judged to go or not to go to heaven. God may take into account whatever exposures they may have had to his teachings, Jesus' etc...

Thirdly, is that persons who are able to get close to God begin to speak his teachings. All of the prophets and goodly people spreading faith, compassion, and goodness are all doing God's work and a collective message is spread. In this, there is no question that the power of Jesus' teachings stand out. But I think people who are looking can gather God's messages from people around them who are holy, or even themselves. Goodness and happiness lies within all of us, it is just sometimes hard to find and expose it.

A Fourth is that the whole premise of 'salvation' per se is a fallacy and that compassionate deeds and actions bring forth their own reward here on earth. In other words, it is not which teacher one chooses, but the results - how close to God one can get - irregardless of who one follows. Again, Jesus' teachings cannot help but aid in this.

So, I do not know which of these is correct, perhaps a combination. But thats my ideas on it.

[traviskicks]

An interesting book to read is the Aquarian Gospel.

---

Is that a Gnostic Gosepel? I have read some of the Gnostic Gosepels and found them to be quite fascinating. Some of them have meditational type practices in them that are similar to eastern thougth.

[Jay777]

I agree with you. I think God could and probably did present himself to different cultures at different times in fashions unique to them and in a way they could relate and understand it. Like I said before, the message is more important than the messenger. I don't think Jesus ever said to worship him. Only worship God. Jesus said he was the son of man. You should really look into the concept of Adam Kadmon. The collective soul or energy of man is the son of God, Adam Kadmon...also Jesus. It seperates Jesus and Christ. Jesus was a man, the Christ within is the God he teaches is within each of us. And, yes, the Aquarian Gospel is somewhat gnostic, but it was written in the 1800s.

[traviskicks]

So, if you are a murderer and you truly believe you are justified because, say, you are ridding the world of the weak--how would you be wrong?
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I think you misrepresent Buddhism here, despite my agreemnt with you about the more objective nature of Christianity. My point is that by looking outward to God or looking inward to self, you will ultimately find the same thing and the same truths. God is in all of us, after all, were we not made from His image? So, it would even state that Buddhists can find objective truths within themselves, but the perspective of Christianity MAY make this easier, but also has other limitations. If this sounds a bit convoluted, I guess it is! Cuz I really think the differences between the two are quite small, if they exist.


--
Not all people who sound religious are really godly. They may refer to me as `Lord,' but they still won't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The decisive issue is whether they obey my Father in heaven. 22On judgment day many will tell me, `Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.' 23But I will reply, `I never knew you. Go away; the things you did were unauthorized.
--

I like this quote! This goes along with what I was saying in my previous quote about salvation through Christ etc.. It is saying that one can never know God, believe in God, or know Jesus Christ (at least in saying those words, or calling it by those names) but if the person is a goodly person, who obeys God's commandments, He/She really DOES know God and Jesus Christ, and will be judged accordingly. The only standards by which the person is judged NOT to know Jesus Christ and God is by others here on earth, who err in their own understandings.

An attitude where you have to call something by a certain name to believe in it, when it is relatively undefinable, is not rationally satisfying.

[Warlord David]

Didn't Jesus reply to one of his disiples who ask Jesus to show us the Father. And Jesus reply that he and the Father are one. If you see me you have seen the Father. The point is that by faith we who are christians have seen God our Father, thru the living Word of God, which is Jesus Christ himself. But I see that you do not have the faith to see, and that you are blind.

[traviskicks]

But I see that you do not have the faith to see, and that you are blind.
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My friend, I am afraid you are severely misinterpreting my position. I do consider myself a Christian. You appear to have a rather narrow view of what a Christian is. I suggest you read the rest of this thread.

[jdhighness]

I think we see eye to eye for the most part, but where in Buddhisms traditions does it refute my example of the self-righteous murderer? I assure you, I was trained by a drill instructor who--although I respected in many ways--honestly told us he would kill people if the law allowed it and they were a nuisance/prone to mistakes. That pained my Christian heart but, were it not for my Christian morals. I would not be able to refute him. The only way I could would be the hypothetical "that person may reform and do something great today"--but that is too hypothetical.

Are you Buddhist? Do you support Buddhism?

I ask because I did not chose Buddhism/Hinduism when I wanted to live for God for two reasons:

1--Its creation account has been disproven by the best science we have. http://jdhighness.tripod.com shows that mainstream science believes in a single creation event, not a cyclical universe.

2--Does it not seem a little bit selfish that Buddhists do not evangelize? Because if there is any objective judgment, then surely those who do not follow/believe certain tenants should be willingly convinced otherwise?

Thanks for your time, as usual.

[Safrguns]

Christians who believe Salvation lies ONLY through Jesus Christ are condmening all of these people to hell. Quite heartless really, not to mention irrational. Jesus HIMSELF said that He is the way, the truth, and the life, and that no man comes unto the Father except through Him. John 14:6 However, the problem here is one of assumption. Non Christians and Christians alike read this passage, and naturally conclude that one must first hear about Jesus to be saved. Such is not the case. I have heard countless stories and testimonials of non-christians, including Buddhist Monks (posted somewhere here on FR... couldn't find it), muslims, and even George Forman's testimony, where the name Jesus was not even on their mind... only a sincere desire to find God... for real. Thats when they met Jesus. They didn't hear about it from evangelicals or read it in a book. They just looked up and said I'm Sorry God... can you save me? God listens to the heart... not the words which come out of our mouth.

[WriteOn]

i must've hit a nerve. :D seeing as how you danced away from the issue...

L

[WriteOn]

show me the math smart boy. i don't think you got it. if you did, there wouldn't be anything to discuss, we could close up all the neuroscience, philosophy and nlp shops in the world.

you ain't got squat, boy. :D