Posted on 11/07/2004 8:40:35 PM PST by Quix
IMHO, because the term gnosticism is ill-defined - it becomes the condemning perjorative of choice in many "debates" with other believers. But if one inquiries more closely as to the origin of the term, it becomes clear that the term originally is:
Any man can obtain knowledge wisdom requires humility. Even so, both knowledge and wisdom lead to despair:
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. – John 8:31-32
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. – John 14:6
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. – John 16:13
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. – John 17:17
This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. – 1 John 5:6
THOROUGHLY AGREE.
THANKS TONS,
as ever.
LUB
That is very true.
Periodically, The Lord has impressed on me that it's not wise to wrestle with certain types of critters--in addition to being a useless expenditure of bother and energy.
This has often left me feeling very torn between that press, mandate and an opposing one of "TO EVERY MAN, PROVIDE AN ANSWER."
I'm going to redouble my efforts to leave the lurkers more to God's Providence more of the time--and avoid wrestling with certain types of critters--regardless of their tweaks and regardless of MOST of their outrageous, inaccurate, dishonest, etc. statements.
I will be praying more for/about them, however.
I post these sorts of threads as a service to The Body of Christ and to discuss the issues related thereto with like-minded Believers toward mutual edification etc.
I don't post them for fruitless debate with naysaying tradition bound RELIGIOUS leader, 'traditions of man' types who seem to have less than a shred of logical consistency, openness, honesty or fair-mindedness about such topics.
There's a Proverb about never providing an answer to such persons and about providing an answer to such persons. I'll choose MOST OF THE TIME to follow the Proverb about never providing an answer to such persons. They aren't interested in Godly answers, anyway. They are only interested in conformity to their constructions on reality--regardless of how off the wall and unBiblical that they are.
Anyway--God's best to each and may we all grow in His knowledge and wisdom rather than in our own pontificated vanities.
Sincerely,
Cessationists seem to believe that St Paul's exhortations about spiritual gifts and their operation IN THE CHURCH during the CHURCH AGE era should be removed from The Bible and ignored totally as having absolutely no application or value in today's Christian life (congregational or otherwise). Evidently, Paul was hearing wrong when he scribed those verses and should have just distributed them as part of the temporary weekly order of service instead of as part of The Canon. I'm sure Paul is sitting in heaven very impressed with their magnanimous discernment. Perhaps he's lobbying God to send legions of angels to every printed Scriptural edition with erasures to remove his error.
But I wouldn't hold my breath for their arrival and resulting blank spots on your Bible's pages.
Paul knew precisely what He was doing as he scribed every Greek letter of his parts of the New Testament. He knew he was scribing THE MANUAL FOR CHRISTIANS--at least for THE CHURCH AGE, if not for the conceivable future.
There was a spot where he oned his own personal opinion apart from that scribed for The Lord. The rest of the text can be taken as The Lord's instructions for Christian life.
But, no!!!! The cessationists will have none of it. They'd rather pick and choose what's plausible and COMFORTABLE TO THEM! This is really not far removed from the so called 'HIGHER' CRITICISM school of Biblical so called scholarship. Those characters have tried for decades to erase any supernatural, miraculous element from Scriptures at all.
Cessationists are slightly better. They'll allow supernatural events, miracles WAYYYYYYYY BACK THEN--VERRRRRRRRRYYYYY SAFELY 2,000 years ago--so they don't have to get their knickers in a twist trying to learn how to flow with HOLY SPIRIT IN THE DAY BY DAY, MOMENT BY MOMENT PRESENT.
There were VERY RELIGIOUS leaders of Jesus' dusty pathed days who felt the same way. They wanted God in THEIR CAREFULLY CRAFTED; CAREFULLY RATIONALIZED; CAREFULLY JUSTIFIED; CAREFULLY PROOF-TEXTED; RIGIDLY STRUCTURED; VERY TIDY; VERY TINY; VERY NARROW LITTLE BOXES. Their traditions-of-men-imprisoned constructions on reality as well as their psychology demanded it.
There Jesus was running around in the flesh. John the Beloved seems to have enjoyed great holy intimacy routinely with Christ tangibly present.
But the RELIGIOUS leaders would have none of it. He threatened their constructions on reality. He was unpredictable. He couldn't be controlled. WORSE, HE DEMANDED THAT THEY SUBMIT TO HIS LORDSHIP! That was really scary. They'd not only lose control of the people--they'd have to learn to flow with God Almighty and HIS UNPREDICTABLE tendencies. That was intolerable. They were their own gods and had no intention of being deposed.
Besides, all this picking corn on the Sabbath; healing on the Sabbath and a list of other things just didn't fit their reading of the Scriptural texts. They just couldn't have any part of it. It rocked their boat and shattered their tidy little boxes far too much from the git-go.
One of the cessationists favorite fantasies is that prophecy in the NT has to operate 100% totally according to THEIR UNDERSTANDING of how prophecy operated in the Old Testament--even though there's abundant Scriptural and early church evidence that such a notion is off the wall.
They insist that Old Testament Prophets were stoned if they were not 100% accurate. Scripture indicates otherwise in several places. I hope to post at least one or two this evening. Perhaps some great Bible scholars can beat me to it.
Blessings,
Taken from YOUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHECY.
p. 359:
"Glenn Foster shares this interesting thought: "The prophet Samuel told King Saul that the kingdom of Israel was torn from him by the Lord that day. Yet twenty-four years passed before David was crowned King of Israel. When God spoke that word by His prophet, it was a settled fact in the spiritual realm. But it took a process of time before it was evidenced in the natural realm." 4
4 Foster, Glenn. The Purpose and Use of Prophecy. Glendale, Ariz.: Sweetwater, 1988. p 93.
PERSISTENTLY the cessationists rant that prophecy ceased once the last word was scribed in the last sentence of Revelation. Certainly this is an UNBiblical assertion fabricated from the whole cloth of their own biases and assumptions. IT IS ALSO PLAINGLY UNTRUE HISTORICALLY --as the following from the Didache illustrates. The quote is again from YOUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHECY p. 323:
The Didache, dating from the last half of the first century, instructed the early Christians to beware of prophets who demanded money and wanted to make extended visits to the local church, thereby abusing hospitality. 34 The first-century Church, it seems was more "concerned with discerning prophets [and motives] rather than prophecies. The warnings of the epistles are directed toward false prophets, not specific false prophecies." 35
4. Does this person display the fruit of the Holy Spirit in his or her life? Galatians 5 contrasts the "deeds of the flesh" (verse 19) and the "fruit of the Spirit" verse 22). All of us respond more positively to a prophecy if we sense in that person a loving humility that reflects the life of Jesus. Does this person's life add up? Does he or she demonstrate the character of Christ? Some call this "the moral test," and it is an important one. The Didache says that "not everybody making ecstatic utterances is a prophet, but only if he behaves like the Lord" (11:8) and that "every prophet who teaches the truth but fails to practice what he preaches is a false prophet" (11:10). True prophecy produces fruit in character and conduct consistent with the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
[end of p. 323 quotes from YSADSP]
34 Kydd, Ronald A. N. Charismatic Gifts in the Early Church. Peabody, Mass.: Hendrickson, 1984. pp 6-11; The Didache 11:4-6, 12.
35 Yocum, Bruce. Prophecy: Exercising the Prophetic Gifts of the Spirit in the Church Today. Ann Arbor, Mich.: Servant 1976. p63.
[PERSISTENTLY THE CESSATIONIST NAYSAYERS INSIST that there's nothing any Believer needs to know that's not in The Bible. I guess they don't think God should give advice on whom to marry; which of two attractive jobs to take; whether to stay in the current city or move to a distant one; etc. Evidently they'd be much more comfortable with Believers getting such counsel from the ungodly counselors, economic advisors and the like??? As the following illustration from history--found on p322 in YSADSP shows rather dramatically how useful and even critical timely prophecy from Holy Spirit can be in the lives of believers.]
[#4 of a list of items in the book advising about good guidelines regarding determining whether a prophecy is a good one or not.]
4. Does the prophecy have value within specific limits of time and space? Robeck calls this "context specificity" and points out (using as an illustration Agabus' foretelling of a famine) that sometimes a prophecy has certain limitations. "and the ability to test the prophetic gift adequately also lies within that context." 30 As it happened, the church at Antioch exercised faith in the prophet and rallied to the immediate challenge. To respond later with an offering would have been too late.
Another "limited-time" prophecy was apparently given to the church at Jerusalem just before the city was put under siege by the Roman general Titus. According to Eusebius, the third-century historian, all the believers fled from Jerusalem in response to prophecy, thereby saving their lives. The city was destroyed shortly thereafter in A.D. 70. "The whole body, hoever, of the church at Jerusalem having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella." 31
30 Robeck, Cecil M. Jr, "Gift of Prophecy," p. 733, Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements by Stanley M. Burgess, Gary B McGee and Patrick H. Alexander. Used by permission of Zondervan Publishing House.
31 Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1981), p. 86.
A good comment on potentially flawed prophecies is also found on p 174 of YSADSP:
To be judged. We will discuss fully the subject of testing prophetic utterances in chapters 20 and 21. Three Scripture passages (1 Corinthians 14:29, 1 Thessalonians 5:20-21 and 1 John 4:1, each of which we will examine in those chapters) teach that Christian prophecies should be judged or evaluated. This implies, of course, that prophecy can have error [particularly in the NT when all believers are indwelt by Holy Spirit vs the lone or a few particularly indwelt individuals in the OT at any given time--Qx]. False prophecy is troublesome for a local congregation, but there are also the challenges of impure, weak or "sloppy" prophecy given by sincere but untrained people. 31 Even the content of "good" prophecy must be guaged by whether the utterance is inspired in general content or exact wording.
p174
31 See the practical discussion by Yocum [listed above], Prophecy, chapter 7. He focuses from a [Roman] Catholic charismatic viewpoint on the role of the Christian community in testing and forming prophets who can be trusted . . .
[Qx: Another example of an OLD TESTAMENT prophecy that did not come to pass without the prophet being stoned or considered false is mentioned on p 397 at footnote 37 in YSADSP]:
37. Ellison, Men Spake, p. 18. Nineveh was not destroyed, and we understand why because of the book of Jonah. Ellison also points out that the judgment of Tyre, Egypt and Babylon were all "suspended."
[Qx: I can hear the cessationist naysayers crying "That's different." No, it's not. Many modern day prophecies result in the same folks crying FALES PROPHET when a prophecy 'fails' for a similar reason. Much prophecy is given so that prayer and/or repentance can forestall the prophecies coming to pass].
[Qx: Some other good refs to the Church in the first centuries A.D. are]:
p388
10. Stanley M. Burgess deals with the tension between prophecy and form in a fine study of the Church from the end of the first century. A.D. to the end of the fifth century. The Spirit and the Church: Antiquity (Peabody, Mass.: Hendrickson, 1984). Also see chapter 15 in this book.
11. See M. Eugene Boring, The Continuing Voice of Jesus: Christian Prophecy & the Gospel Tradiation (Louisville: Westminster/John Knox, 1991), chapter 1. Also see Aune, David E. Prophecy in Early Christianity, chapter 9, and "Christian Prophecy and Sayings of Jesus," New Testament Studies 29 (1982), pp. 104-112.
[Qx: Also interesting is this note found on p388]:
27. Scripture itself seems to take in stride certain prophecy that was not fulfilled verbatim and could be classified as inspired or Spirit-quickened but not God-breathed or inscripturated. Agabus' "thus saith the Spirit" prophecy was fulfilled in meaning but not in minute detail of actual words used (see Acts 21:11, 33).
[QX: Another useful ref]:
David Pytches' chapter 15, "Prophecy during the Dark Ages," and his chapters 16-19, which talk about the French prophets (A.D. 1500-1600) . . .
[QX: And]:
Ronald A. N. Kydd, Charismatic Gifts in the Early Church: An Exploration into the Gifts of the Spirit during the First Three Centuries of the Christian Church (Peabody, Mass.: Hendrickson, 1984). Also see Burgess, Spirit and the Church.
[Qx: I also like Gentile's comment on p31 of YSADSP quoting R Joyner]:
"Most of what is called 'prophecy' today is on the lowest level of prophetic revelation, which is the impression level. These are general revelations that we have to put words to. Personally, I do not add the addendum 'thus saith the Lord' to what is in fact an impression that I have expressed in my own words. The word of the Lord is precious, and the last thing I want to do is put my words in His mouth. . . . In fact, it is debatable whether we ever need to include such a statement in our propheies today. . . . We might be trusted with far more authority and higher levels of revelation if we start calling impressions just what they are, and do not so freely misuse those precious words 'thus saith the Lord.'" 26
[Qx: I strongly agree. And the best I've known--whenever they VERY RARELY said--THE LORD IS SAYING/TELLING ME . . . It always came to pass exactly as they said it would. Their IMPRESSIONS, on the other hand could have a routine accuracy of around 80-85% or so, in my experience].
26 Joyner, R., Prophetic Ministry, pp. 117-118.
[QX: Gentile notes that perhaps we should demand 100% accuracy in preaching! p. 389 LOL.]
CESSATIONIST NAYSAYERS persistently talk as though ****ALL**** Biblical era prophecies were involved with confirming THE SCRIPTURES. That, too, is simply untrue, false, wrong.
A note on p395 touches on this:
. . . "The Old Testament makes no obviouis attempt to distinguish the activities of the early prophets from those of the writing prophets, and in fact, the same titles are given to both groups." R. R. Wilson, "Early Israelite Prophecy," Interpretation 32 (1978), p.7. This can also be said in evaluating Old versus New Testament prophets.
Qx: Cessationist naysayers persistently claim that there's NO REASON for modern day prophecy. The following source is a good, factual, historical proof of the nonsense of such a claim:
. . . "Jane Rumph's compilation of forth true, dramatic accounts of worldwide conversions resulting from "power evangelism" (which includes prophecy), Stories from the Front Lines.
p. 402
Qx: Enough of my roamings amongst the refs and underlinings tonight.
May all those of a teachable spirit, heart; and the least bit of fair-mindedness be enlighted BY HOLY SPIRIT regarding these matters. May all biases and blinders be silenced in the face of Holy Spirit's speaking to the hearts, spirits and minds of any and all readers.
Blessings,
Thanks for the ping!
No offense intended but Christians are going to have start looking rationally at their beliefs. People have been saying for the past 2000 years that Christ's return was imminent. It ain't gonna happen folks, at least not in the way we expect. There is much about Jesus and early Christianity that has been left out of the bible. Many of these writings have become available in the last 50 years. In any case, is waiting around for the rapture really the essence of Christianity? What about developing a relationship with God right now through prayer and service. Why wait for something that may not happen in your lifetime or ever?
I think you are ill-informed. Perhaps you haven't studied the facts of the topic very thoroughly.
The Scriptural and other than Scriptural evidence for our position on such is quite extensive and of high quality.
A lot of the 'other docs' about Christ from the last 50 years are not very reputable at all.
There are more than many dozens (some would count 100's) of Biblical prophecies indicating that these are the end times. Certainly the prophetic clock has been ticking since ISRAEL BECAME A NATION AGAIN IN A DAY in 1948.
The predicted world government to arise after that is at the door. If you didn't think of that when SKERRY said he'd put our military under UN control, then I think you are asleep or ill/uninformed.
The 'mark' without which it will be impossible to buy or sell as the Bible predicts--is already injected in Mexico's leaders and a number of people in this country--reportedly including Bill Gates' kids.
None of these things have been true until our era. Historically, there may have been 3-4 things SORT OF TOWARD the direction of this or that Biblical prophecy. NOW, THERE ARE 100'S OF THINGS--1000'S OF INDIVIDUAL DATA POINTS MARKING THE INEXORABLE MARCH toward the conclusion the Bible outlines for these end times.
You can ignore the evidence if you wish. The events will still take place just as the Bible indicates they will.
Certainly we are still called by The Bible to occupy until Christ returns. And that includes the good things you mentioned. BUT WE ARE ALSO CALLED TO WATCH, BE READY, BE AWARE OF WHAT'S GOING ON AND TO LOOK FOR HIS APPEARING.
Certainly I do.
RE: The 'mark' without which it will be impossible to buy or sell as the Bible predicts--is already injected in Mexico's leaders and a number of people in this country--reportedly including Bill Gates' kids."
This site posits another idea regarding the mark of the beast. There are many more, too.
http://www.torahofmessiah.com/markofbeast.html
Hmmmmmm, I don't think so
Amen!
"A lot of the 'other docs' about Christ from the last 50 years are not very reputable at all."
According to who? Some of these writings are earlier than the books in the new testament. I can't see how an intelligent Christian wouldn't want to look into these things so that he/she could make their own judgement. The fact is that the bible was compiled by humans (politicians and religious leaders) 100's of years after Jesus. Did Jesus make any promises about the integrity of the bible that was to be compiled after his cruxcifiction?
A midly interesting but far from convincing doc.
I'll stay pretty confident of the SLAG [chip implant] interpretation.
It's the only ID thing designed to be tied into the buying and selling system worldwide. And the only one on the horizon.
I firmly believe in a very literal mark.
Time will tell.
ACTUALLY,
THERE'S PLENTY OF QUALITY EVIDENCE
indicating that the Canon was essentially compiled and agreed upon within 30-50 years of the events they described. Certainly plenty of people who witnessed the events had access to the Canon documents.
The 300 years later thing essentially ratified what was mostly an already completed process within 30-50 years of the events.
The study of the veracity of the NT documents has changed many a scholarly but integrous atheist into a vigorous and faith-filled Believer. C.S. Lewis was but one.
Josh McDowell, another.
And there's another recent one who's name is slipping me at the moment.
I was looking for something I had saved regarding the Nicene Council. Couldn't find it, but came across the following. This is but one source of information exposing the politics behind the Nicene Creed. It is amazing to think that everyone blindly accepts something that an ancient group of men contrived for their own political agenda. And it's probably because the church had us repeat the creed over and over and over again. Nevermind a trinity isn't in the bible. Nevermind that Jesus was a Jew. Nevermind the importance of the Shema to every practicing Jew.
http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/51d.htm
There is a LOT of blindness.
"everyone blindly accepts"
is inaccurate.
More than 2-3 people together longer than a few hours or a few meetings or a year and a half . . . and politics become burdensome; distort reality; cultivate blinding biases; bureaucratize 'truth;' etc.
Nevertheless, I find most of your contentions to be gross distortions of reality; inaccurate to Scripture and contrary to my experiences of God.
"To resolve the dispute, a creed was proposed which favoured Athanasius and condemned Arius. Although most of the bishops present were not Arian, many of them were equally opposed to the wording of part of the creed which defined the nature of Jesus as of "one substance" with the Father. Over sixteen centuries later, the theologians of the Eastern Orthodox churches and the Western Churches, of Roman origin, are still divided over this issue."
I'm not an EO expert, but I do not believe this is factually true. I think the author is confusing the doctine of "one substance" from Nicea with the filioque. Eastern and Western churches are in agreement on the doctrine of Christ being "of one substance" with the Father.
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