"More Catholic Than the Pope" — New Book Responds to Arguments Raised by Extreme Traditionalists

Envoy Encore Weblog ^ | 07-30-04 | Patrick Madrid

[Patrick Madrid]

Catholic canon lawyer Peter Vere and I have co-authored a new book critiquing the claims and controversies of extreme traditionalism that will come out in September, published by Our Sunday Visitor Publishing.

Written in a popular and accessible style, More Catholic Than the Pope provides a detailed analysis of and response to common arguments raised by extreme traditionalist Catholics (in particular, adherents of the Society of St. Pius X) against the Second Vatican Council, Pope John Paul II, the fact that the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre committed a schismatic act by illicitly ordaining four bishops in 1988, and more. Chapters include a history of the SSPX, a background on the controversy between the SSPX and the so-called "Conciliar Church," and answers to several standard canon-law and historical arguments often raised by extreme traditionalists.

Our hope is that, by God's grace, the evidence presented in this new 224-page book will inform, encourage, and strengthen Catholics who have been shaken or confused by the misguided arguments raised against the Catholic Church by some extreme traditionalists and, with regard to those who have adopted a schismatic mindset, that this book will help them recognize the errors of extreme traditionalist groups, help them to see why they should abandon those errors, and help them come home to the Catholic Church.

Additional details on More Catholic Than the Pope will be available soon at Envoy Encore weblog.

[GratianGasparri]

But the so-called Lefebvrists could do what Madrid and Vere can't: provide decent arguments to convince the sedes to stay aboard the Barque of Peter.

This is the funniest thing I heard all day. Since the mid 1980's, the SSPX have notorious avoided ope debate with leading sedevacantist thinkers. The reason is simple. The SSPX always lose. The sedes always win. From Mgr. Gerard des Lauriers to Fr. Noel Barbara to Fr. Anthony Cekada, the SSPX have had to resort to obfuscation and strawmen to convince their followers they won.

[american colleen]

If you think that's bad, just try being one of these traditional Catholics, loyal to the doctrine of the Catholic Church sometime. It's worse.

I am a traditional Catholic, pascendi.

[pascendi]

"Extreme trads, such as SSPXers and sedes, occupy the same role vis-a-vis the Church as the Libertarian and Constitution Party members occupy relative to the Republican Party."

No kidding. You guys are just doing to the Church what you've done the government. The same principle of synthesis are at work in both the Church and civil society.

[TheSpottedOwl]

It's just a matter of time before the traditionalists who try to remain within the Church just jump off the cliff with the sedevacantists.

Reminds me of a joke. The definition of mixed emotions is when you see your mother in law drive off a cliff...in your new Mercedes ;-)

[sinkspur]

You guys are just doing to the Church what you've done the government. The same principle of synthesis are at work in both the Church and civil society.

And the same principle of power is at work as well: you have no power when you are outside, looking in.

[pascendi]

Hey, everybody is traditional from what I hear.

They say nothing fundamental has changed in the Church, right, but look around you. What do you see. Does that really make any sense?

But there's no need to prove anything to me anyways. Just give me holy and loyal shepherds, my Catholic doctrine back, and my traditional Latin liturgy. For a bonus, maybe kick out the heretics.

That's not much to ask.

[Salvation]

Welcome to FR

And thanks for this post!

[pascendi]

"Last I checked we are living in a free country and no one is prohibited from writing what they please - just as no one is forced to buy their wares."

Look, that really doesn't factor into the conversation. Did I ever say they the book is illegal? Never even hinted to anything from that direction.

"And I'd take you a bit more seriously when you say something like 'Then tell Madrid and Vere to quit digging in the dirt and looking to make money off a crisis in the Church..' if you ascribed like motives to writers like Thomas A. Droleskey or Atila Sinke Guimarães or Marian T. Horvat or Michael J. Matt or John Vennari - but we can't do that, right? Because we cannot know the state of their souls and minds or what motivates them."

Some are trying to get the Church to move in a new direction, a theological impossibility. Others want Church doctrine and proper liturgical expression maintained. I side with the latter whenever and wherever I can. As to motives, it's really just that simple.

[american colleen]

Hey, everybody is traditional from what I hear.

Maybe not according to the rules and regulations of the SSPX though.

Just give me holy and loyal shepherds, my Catholic doctrine back, and my traditional Latin liturgy.

Me, my, my. You know, if you don't leave those things, they won't leave you.

For a bonus, maybe kick out the heretics.

Something about the wheat and chafe...??? Good thing kicking out the 'heretics' is above my pay grade! I really don't mind sitting amongst the unenlightened unwashed sinners and procrastinators, I fit right in.

[sinkspur]

Others want Church doctrine and proper liturgical expression maintained. I side with the latter whenever and wherever I can.

So do I. So does everybody around here, that I can see.

The definition of "proper liturgical expression" seems to be the issue.

[Salvation]

Maybe all of us need to ponder on these words from the First Reading for today.

Reading I
Ec 1:2; 2:21-23


Vanity of vanities, says Qoheleth,
vanity of vanities! All things are vanity!

Here is one who has labored with wisdom and knowledge and skill,
and yet to another who has not labored over it,
he must leave property.
This also is vanity and a great misfortune.
For what profit comes to man from all the toil and anxiety of heart
with which he has labored under the sun?
All his days sorrow and grief are their occupation;
even at night his mind is not at rest.
This also is vanity.

[pascendi]

"This is the funniest thing I heard all day. Since the mid 1980's, the SSPX have notorious avoided ope debate with leading sedevacantist thinkers. The reason is simple. The SSPX always lose. The sedes always win. From Mgr. Gerard des Lauriers to Fr. Noel Barbara to Fr. Anthony Cekada, the SSPX have had to resort to obfuscation and strawmen to convince their followers they won."

All anyone needs to do is reference the dogmatic First Vatican Council, session on the dogmatic constitution on the Church of Christ Chapter 2, and see the phrase "endure without interruption". That should take care of the problem.

[pascendi]

"I think that if the SSPX is PROTESTING the Pope and the Magisterium then it a PROTESTANT organization. They are protesting from the right."

Yeah. And then there's a bunch of Wiccans on the left that want to be women priests.

And so we're going to steer the Ark of Salvation right down the center between the two.

Smart. Right? lol.

[pascendi]

forgot ping

[pascendi]

"And the same principle of power is at work as well: you have no power when you are outside, looking in."

See, to me, this is an unmistakable admission that you know exactly what you're doing to Christ's Church. There's no doubt on this end.

Too bad so many other Catholics are just so very blind to it.

[pascendi]

Again, I attend the indult. So what exactly is my problem, eh. I'd like to hear it.

[pascendi]

You're waxing mystical. Any commentary you'd like to make on this Scripture as to how it relates to the conversation?

[arkady_renko]

Thanks for listening to my rant!

Not much of a rant, but you're welcome. These things certainly are evangelistic, aren't they?

Take care,

A_R

[sinkspur]

See, to me, this is an unmistakable admission that you know exactly what you're doing to Christ's Church.

I have no power in "Christ's Church." The fact that you think I do indicates a paranoid mindset.

Nobody is trying to "do" anything to Christ's Church, pascendi. All of this conspiratorial stuff is right out of the John Birch Society.

[k omalley]

Lately these dog fight threads have been scaring me away too. Even during Lent there was bloodshed.

In this time of turmoil in the Church I wonder how many of us really do see the situation clearly.

I have formed an admittedly tentative opinion about what is happening in the Church right now but I could very well be wrong and pray daily for wisdom and discernment. Meanwhile I keep going to Mass at my N.O. church. There is no Indult, no Eastern rite , no SSPX for me to run away to and it is that way for millions of other Catholics.