Again, Jews Fault Mormons Over Posthumous Baptisms

NY Times ^ | December 21, 2003 | IAN URBINA

[Pharmboy]

Jewish group says it is considering legal action in an effort to stop the Mormon Church from posthumously baptizing many Jews, especially Holocaust victims.

Under the practice, known by Mormons as vicarious baptism — a significant rite of the church — the dead are baptized by living church members who stand in as proxies.

But in 1995, after evidence emerged that at least 380,000 names of Jewish Holocaust victims were on baptismal lists in the church's extensive archives in Salt Lake City, the church agreed to end vicarious baptism without consent from the descendants of the dead. Church officials also said the church would remove the names of Holocaust victims placed on the lists before 1995.

"For the last seven years, we've had entirely cordial relations with the Mormons," said Ernest Michel, who negotiated the agreement on behalf of the American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, which is based in New York and claims 180,000 members. "But the agreement is clear and they have not held up their end."

Last year, Helen Radkey, an independent researcher in Salt Lake City, gave Mr. Michel evidence that the Mormon lists still included the names of at least 20,000 Jews, many of them Holocaust victims and prominent figures like the philosopher Theodor Herzl and David Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel. Ms. Radkey also provided Mr. Michel with evidence that many of these Jews had been baptized after the 1995 agreement.

But Mormon officials say they remain in full compliance with the 1995 agreement.

"We have actually gone above and beyond," said D. Todd Christofferson, a church official involved with the negotiations. The church removed the names of Holocaust victims listed before 1995 and continues to instruct its members to avoid baptizing Jews who are not directly related to living Mormons or whose immediate family has not given written consent, Mr. Christofferson said.

But he said it was not the church's responsibility to monitor the archives to ensure that no new Jewish names appear. "We never had in mind that we would, on a continual basis, go in and ferret out the Jewish names," Mr. Christofferson said, adding that the labor involved in constantly sifting through an ever-expanding archive, which contains more than 400 million names, would represent an "intolerable burden."

"When the church is made aware of documented concerns, action is taken in compliance with the agreement," he said.

Some Jewish genealogists agree with the Mormon interpretation of the agreement. "I have a copy of the agreement," said Gary Mokotoff, the publisher of Avotaynu, the International Review of Jewish Genealogy. "The wording is vague in some places, but it definitely does not obligate the Mormons to scour their own archives on an ongoing basis."

But Mr. Michel, who said he became involved in the issue after reading about posthumous baptisms in the Jewish newspaper The Forward, contends that the agreement obliges the Mormon Church to monitor the post-1995 lists and remove the names of Jews that appear.

"They put the names in there, they should have to take them out, and the agreement says as much," he said. "Why should we have to do their job for them?" He said the group was considering legal action but would not provide details.

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, whom Mr. Michel contacted, said she planned to take up the matter with Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah, a Republican and a Mormon. "Senator Hatch was immensely helpful in brokering the 1995 agreement, so we're hoping he can get involved again now," she said in a telephone interview.

With approximately 11 million members worldwide, the Mormon Church, known formally as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is one of the fastest-growing in the world, partly because of a strong missionary effort. The importance of the family structure is central to church doctrine and is a reason for the extensive archives kept by the International Genealogical Index in Salt Lake City. The archives include detailed biographical information of 400 million people going back centuries. The names of those to be posthumously baptized are drawn from the archives.

According to Mormon theology, all people, living or dead, possess "free agency," and posthumous baptisms provide only an option, not an obligation, to join the religion in the afterlife. Church membership numbers do not include those baptized after death, Mr. Christofferson said.

Originally, the practice was reserved for ancestors of church members, but over the years many other people have been baptized posthumously. "There is no way to prevent overzealous members doing mission work from submitting names that don't belong," Mr. Christofferson said.

Ms. Radkey, an Australian-born Christian, said she began researching the Mormon practice in 1999 after discovering that the teenage diarist Anne Frank had been posthumously baptized.

[Hildy]

No, it wasn't that. It was something that happens when our Messiah comes.

[Elsie]

I really think the Mormons should start READING those KJV Bibles they strive to give out since this is NOT Biblical by any stretch of the imagination.

 

OH?

 

 1 Corinthians 15:29      Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

[freedumb2003]

It was something that happens when our Messiah comes.

They both will hit Him up for 10% of whatever He has on Him?

[P-Marlowe]

I'm not offended by your beliefs. I respect your beliefs. I think you are wrong about Jesus and you think I'm wrong about Jesus. At least one of us is truly wrong. Maybe both.

I think it is dangerous for Jews to take offense at something as benign as this. There are plenty of things in the history of Christianity that Jews can take offense at. I will join them in taking offense at the actions of those who committed atrocities in the name of Christ. I am certain beyond all certainty that Christ was offended by those actions as well.

Nevertheless, we as Christians are called by our religion to preach the gospel to all nations and all men. So I would be remiss in my Christianity if I did not tell you that Jesus is the way the truth and the life and that no man comes to the father except by him.

Ok, I've done my Christian duty. If I offended you, then I have done my job. If I have stirred some spiritual movement in your soul, then God has done his job.

Feel free to try to convince me of the truth of your beliefs. Feel free to proselytize me. I will not be offended. If you have the truth and you know the truth and you withold the truth from me, then I would be offended that you did not care enough about me to share what you believed to be the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Why would you be so stingy with the truth if you knew that the truth would set others free?

If I cared not for your soul, then I would not have told you that Jesus is the way. It is what I know to be true. If you know differently and you care about my soul, then you owe it to me to share that truth with me. Do not hide your lamp under a bushel. Let your light shine.

May God truly Bless you.

<><

Marlowe.

[Elsie]

I haven't looked at any commentaries to see what the Biblical experts say about this verse.....

 

You don't NEED a commentary.... here is what PAUL said --

1 Corinthians 11:34
 If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment.   And when I come I will give further directions.

(this was instructions about the Lord's Supper, but no doubt gives clues as to Paul's not writing EVERYTHING down, but speaking face to face.)

[Elsie]

Huh?

[freedumb2003]

And when I come I will give further directions.

My favorite bumber sticker:

Jesus is Coming
everyone look busy!

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

Let's say that you're a religious Methodist, and some rabbi comes along and says that he now converted a dead relative of yours to Judaism: is that ok with you?

Can I laugh in his face or do I have to be polite?

[nmh]

OH? 1 Corinthians 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Would it be too much to ask of you to read the passage in its proper context? Or does selecting verses with no understanding fit your agenda better?

[Pharmboy]

Evidently you have not one scintilla of understanding about people who exist beyond your tiny world. There are hundreds of millions of individuals who care deeply about this sort of stuff (while you and I may not).

And no need to be polite: a yokel like you would probably hurt themselves.

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

Evidently you have not one scintilla of understanding about people who exist beyond your tiny world.

Oh but I do.

The problem is that by their own rules a Orthodox Jew would not believe this and neither would a Methodist. Both are of the faith belief that once you are dead you are dead. So your example was slightly off base.

There are hundreds of millions of individuals who care deeply about this sort of stuff (while you and I may not).

I doubt the "hundreds of millions" part. And they should get a grip. I refuse to join the club of the perpetually offended.

And no need to be polite: a yokel like you would probably hurt themselves.

Oh goody! Then I get to both laugh and point.

Actually I would do neither. The person would be, by their light, trying to do a good deed. I would accept that in the spirit that it was offered. So should the rest of the club of the perpetually offended. If you look for insults you will find them.

[Redwood71]

"that were only visible to J. Smith..."

---

Wasn't that the gentleman that claimed to see treasures underground through rocks, was imprisoned for cheating folks this way, then pulled out of prison by a mob and shot? Seems the religion got off to a rocky start, didn't it.

[Ciexyz]

Have the Mormons baptized Abraham Lincoln, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson?

[rmmcdaniell]

I'd think there were better things to get upset about. If you believe the practice is kooky and illegitimate, how does it affect you or your ancestors if Mormons SAY it has some effect on your ancestors. You know the truth. How can it have any negative effect anyway? Better to get upset that living spokesmen for your people are liberals!

By the authority of high Priest Zubwaru, I hereby baptize all who read this thread as followers of the flying pig god Zanyuritu!

Congratulations All!!!

[P-Marlowe]

Have the Mormons baptized Abraham Lincoln, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson?

I'm sure they have. If you are dead and if they know who you are and they know you haven't been baptized as a Mormon, then they put your name on a card and give it to some pimply faced teenager and he takes a dunk for you in a fancy bathtub so that, in the event you decide to become a Mormon after you are dead, you can get all the blessings that come with baptism without having to get your cold dead worm infested rotting stinking corpse wet.

[Pharmboy]

Ignorant, arrogant and insensitive is really quite a trifecta to go through life with. I hope you're young so there is time...

Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife
Level: Basic


Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death is not the end of human existence. However, because Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion. It is possible for an Orthodox Jew to believe that the souls of the righteous dead go to a place similar to the Christian heaven, or that they are reincarnated through many lifetimes, or that they simply wait until the coming of the messiah, when they will be resurrected. Likewise, Orthodox Jews can believe that the souls of the wicked are tormented by demons of their own creation, or that wicked souls are simply destroyed at death, ceasing to exist.

Biblical References to the Afterlife
Some scholars claim that belief in the afterlife is a teaching that developed late in Jewish history. It is true that the Torah emphasizes immediate, concrete, physical rewards and punishments rather than abstract future ones. See, for example, Lev. 26:3-9 and Deut. 11:13-15. However, there is clear evidence in the Torah of belief in existence after death. The Torah indicates in several places that the righteous will be reunited with their loved ones after death, while the wicked will be excluded from this reunion.

The Torah speaks of several noteworthy people being "gathered to their people." See, for example, Gen. 25:8 (Abraham), 25:17 (Ishmael), 35:29 (Isaac), 49:33 (Jacob), Deut. 32:50 (Moses and Aaron) II Kings 22:20 (King Josiah). This gathering is described as a separate event from the physical death of the body or the burial.

Certain sins are punished by the sinner being "cut off from his people." See, for example, Gen. 17:14 and Ex. 31:14. This punishment is referred to as kareit (kah-REHYT) (literally, "cutting off," but usually translated as "spiritual excision"), and it means that the soul loses its portion in the World to Come.

Later portions of the Tanakh speak more clearly of life after death and the World to Come. See Dan. 12:2, Neh. 9:5.

Resurrection and Reincarnation
Belief in the eventual resurrection of the dead is a fundamental belief of traditional Judaism. It was a belief that distinguished the Pharisees (intellectual ancestors of Rabbinical Judaism) from the Sadducees. The Sadducees rejected the concept, because it is not explicitly mentioned in the Torah. The Pharisees found the concept implied in certain verses.

Belief in resurrection of the dead is one of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith. The second blessing of the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, which is recited three times daily, contains several references to resurrection. (Note: the Reform movement, which apparently rejects this belief, has rewritten the second blessing accordingly).

The resurrection of the dead will occur in the messianic age, a time referred to in Hebrew as the Olam Ha-Ba, the World to Come, but that term is also used to refer to the spiritual afterlife. When the messiah comes to initiate the perfect world of peace and prosperity, the righteous dead will be brought back to life and given the opportunity to experience the perfected world that their righteousness helped to create. The wicked dead will not be resurrected.

There are some mystical schools of thought that believe resurrection is not a one-time event, but is an ongoing process. The souls of the righteous are reborn in to continue the ongoing process of tikkun olam, mending of the world. Some sources indicate that reincarnation is a routine process, while others indicate that it only occurs in unusual circumstances, where the soul left unfinished business behind. Belief in reincarnation is also one way to explain the traditional Jewish belief that every Jewish soul in history was present at Sinai and agreed to the covenant with G-d. (Another explanation: that the soul exists before the body, and these unborn souls were present in some form at Sinai). Belief in reincarnation is commonly held by many Chasidic sects, as well as some other mystically-inclined Jews. See, for example Reincarnation Stories from Chasidic Tradition.

Olam Ha-Ba: The World to Come
The spiritual afterlife is referred to in Hebrew as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come, although this term is also used to refer to the messianic age. The Olam Ha-Ba is another, higher state of being.

In the Mishnah, one rabbi says, "This world is like a lobby before the Olam Ha-Ba. Prepare yourself in the lobby so that you may enter the banquet hall." Similarly, the Talmud says, "This world is like the eve of Shabbat, and the Olam Ha-Ba is like Shabbat. He who prepares on the eve of Shabbat will have food to eat on Shabbat." We prepare ourselves for the Olam Ha-Ba through Torah study and good deeds.

The Talmud states that all Israel has a share in the Olam Ha-Ba. However, not all "shares" are equal. A particularly righteous person will have a greater share in the Olam Ha-Ba than the average person. In addition, a person can lose his share through wicked actions. There are many statements in the Talmud that a particular mitzvah will guarantee a person a place in the Olam Ha-Ba, or that a particular sin will lose a person's share in the Olam Ha-Ba, but these are generally regarded as hyperbole, excessive expressions of approval or disapproval.

Some people look at these teachings and deduce that Jews try to "earn our way into Heaven" by performing the mitzvot. This is a gross mischaracterization of our religion. It is important to remember that unlike some religions, Judaism is not focused on the question of how to get into heaven. Judaism is focused on life and how to live it. Non-Jews frequently ask me, "do you really think you're going to go to Hell if you don't do such-and-such?" It always catches me a bit off balance, because the question of where I am going after death simply doesn't enter into the equation when I think about the mitzvot. We perform the mitzvot because it is our privilege and our sacred obligation to do so. We perform them out of a sense of love and duty, not out of a desire to get something in return. In fact, one of the first bits of ethical advice in Pirkei Avot (a book of the Mishnah) is: "Be not like servants who serve their master for the sake of receiving a reward; instead, be like servants who serve their master not for the sake of receiving a reward, and let the awe of Heaven [meaning G-d, not the afterlife] be upon you."

Nevertheless, we definitely believe that your place in the Olam Ha-Ba is determined by a merit system based on your actions, not by who you are or what religion you profess. In addition, we definitely believe that humanity is capable of being considered righteous in G-d's eyes, or at least good enough to merit paradise after a suitable period of purification.

Do non-Jews have a place in Olam Ha-Ba? Although there are a few statements to the contrary in the Talmud, the predominant view of Judaism is that the righteous of all nations have a share in the Olam Ha-Ba. Statements to the contrary were not based on the notion that membership in Judaism was required to get into Olam Ha-Ba, but were grounded in the observation that non-Jews were not righteous people. If you consider the behavior of the surrounding peoples at the time that the Talmud was written, you can understand the rabbis' attitudes. By the time of Rambam, the belief was firmly entrenched that the righteous of all nations have a share in the Olam Ha-Ba.

[GetUsOutOfTheUnitedNations]

they will probably baptize Pope John Paul II the minute the smoke clears at the Vatican.

naw, they have to wait a period of time before they can dunk them in the temple. If memory serves, it is somewhere between 6 month and a year. I guess this is to make sure they are dead....

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

Exactly. They do not believe that your religion can be changed in the afterlife.

Here is what you said.

Let's say that you're a religious Methodist, and some rabbi comes along and says that he now converted a dead relative of yours to Judaism: is that ok with you?

A rabbi would never say this. Because you can't convert the dead by his beliefs. A Methodist would not believe him because you can't convert the dead by his beliefs.

You really are a member of the club of the perpetually offended aren't you?

[Pharmboy]

Afterlife--Methodist

We understand ourselves to be part of Christ's universal church when by adoration, proclamation, and service we become conformed to Christ. We are initiated and incorporated into this community of faith by Baptism, receiving the promise of the Spirit that re-creates and transforms us. Through the regular celebration of Holy Communion, we participate in the risen presence of Jesus Christ and are thereby nourished for faithful discipleship.

We pray and work for the coming of God's realm and reign to the world and rejoice in the promise of everlasting life that overcomes death and the forces of evil.

With other Christians we recognize that the reign of God is both a present and future reality. The church is called to be that place where the first signs of the reign of God are identified and acknowledged in the world. Wherever persons are being made new creatures in Christ, wherever the insights and resources of the gospel are brought to bear on the life of the world, God's reign is already effective in its healing and renewing power.

We also look to the end time in which God's work will be fulfilled. This prospect gives us hope in our present actions as individuals and as the Church. This expectation saves us from resignation and motivates our continuing witness and service.

This information found at: http://www.umc.org/churchlibrary/discipline/doctrinalstandards/doctrinal_standards.

[Pharmboy]

Let me try once again. I will type slowly so perhaps you can understand; evidently your information on the religious beliefs of orthodox Jews was pretty awful. I suspect the rest of your personal database is as bad.

The Mormons are baptising dead Jews; essentially making them something that they never wanted to be when they were alive: Mormons or Christians or anything else but Jews.

They are taking their memory (for instance, Anne Frank has been baptised posthumously by these people) and changing it among the living. That is offensive to people who hold the dead's memories' dear to them. If you cannot understand that you are hopeless. And on a personal note, I am an atheist who does not believe in the afterlife. So for me, this is all meaningless; but I do understnd how Jews who are serious about Judaism can be bothered by this; they used to force baptism on Jews and put them to the sword if they did not convert.