Alabama SC justices cave, order Ten Commandments removed

AP on Fox News ^ | 8-21-03 | AP on Fox News website

[rwfromkansas]

MONTGOMERY, Ala.

[inquest]

To the extent that it is an organ in these governments, it has a specific organization, with its own officers and doctrines specific to each country. There's no way it could be established otherwise.

[JohnnyZ]

Well, it's their legal right to do, overrule the chief justice, unlike some of the extra-constitutional court rulings.

[missyme]

Right given to Adam and Eve by the G-D who created them

[Lost Highway]

In fact, where did they talk about the need for an "organization" for a religion to qualify as establishable?

The same place the Constitution gives federal courts the power to tell a state judge what can and cannot go in his building.

[inquest]

Their chief concern was the practice that existed in England, where there is an official church that's an organ of the state. That's what establishment means in that context. Under that view of the word, you can't very well establish something (that is, invest it with government power) unless it's organized.

[whattajoke]

What makes you want to be nice Mineral MAn? Do you think it is instinct like animals that have instincts?

Please don't tell me that you're another fundamentalist christian of some sort that actually believes without your religion that you'd be out raping and pillaging on a daily basis. The assertion you are trying to make to MM is wholly and completely insulting.

In fact, it very easily could be said that law abiding, nice, non theists are inherently "better" people because they are law abiding and nice without some supernatural deity watching their every move.

[lugsoul]

I think you are showing an ethnocentric bias. It does not. Any imam can interpret the Koran in their own way - and they often do so. You may have noted the recent comments from Khomeini's son. I'd dare say his views aren't mainstream. But he is still an imam, with a following. There is no "official" church, nor any "official" church doctrine. In fact, there is a fair argument that this kind of "establishment" is far more fraught with peril than a more centralized one.

Anyway - the idea that their are some faiths with fall within "thereof" which do not fall within "religion" is among the most tortured Constitutional constructions I've seen, and is worthy of none other than William O. Douglas in its lack of textual support.

[rwfromkansas]

lol.

:)

[Lost Highway]

In fact, it very easily could be said that law abiding, nice, non theists are inherently "better" people because they are law abiding and nice without some supernatural deity watching their every move.

I would disagree. If there is no God then to be anything less than totally hedonistic makes no sense.

[MineralMan]

"What makes you want to be nice Mineral MAn?
Do you think it is instinct like animals that have instincts?"

You're full of questions, aren't you? OK. My mother, who is also an atheist, taught me all the usual things. Be nice to people. Share your toys. Don't hit, bite, or pull other people's hair. That sort of thing.

She was right. A guy gets along so much better by being nice. Indeed, if you're nice, most people are nice in return. It's pretty simple.

Then, as I got older and started to read books, I read about all sorts of countries and cultures. It seemed that every one had some rules about being nice to other people. You are aware, I'm sure, that almost every culture has something equivalent to the Golden Rule. That always seemed to work well for me. I treat others the way I hope they'll treat me. Usually it works very well, and those times it doesn't are just exceptions.

Nobody has to tell me to be nice. I have 58 years behind me that prove that it works.

Now, that doesn't mean being a pushover. I'm not that at all. Attack me and I respond with twice as much force. Threaten me or my family and you contend with someone who will give his life to defend himself or especially his family.

But, if I'm ahead of you at a door, you can count on me to hold it open for you, whether you're man, woman or child. If we both get to the stop sign at the same time, you'll get to go first...every time. If I need to change lanes, I won't cut you off. I'll wait. If you wait on me in a store or restaurant, I will always thank you for your service.

I don't need religion for that. I have my mom to thank.

[lugsoul]

You give them too little credit. While they were certainly informed by their own view of the world, they were trying to write a Constitution of universal principles. Read the ratifying conventions discussions, and you'll see talk about a lot more than setting up a "national religion."

You interpretation isn't supported by their words. In fact, it twists them.

[MineralMan]

"Not only that, but one needs to remember that these 3 (the only 3 that any Western Laws mirror in any way) were societal laws well before Moses' time."

Yup. And why? Because they just make sense. Society can't function without those rules.

[Lost Highway]

Being an athiest, do you believe that the earth happened by chance?

[inquest]

There is no "official" church, nor any "official" church doctrine.

There would still have to be an official organization, otherwise anybody could just up and call himself an imam.

Anyway - the idea that their are some faiths with fall within "thereof" which do not fall within "religion" is among the most tortured Constitutional constructions I've seen, and is worthy of none other than William O. Douglas in its lack of textual support.

That's not what I said. I said that a "faith" is not a religion. Religions are modes of worship, and the organizations centered around them. There's only a slight variation of context between the two clauses that are influenced by the surrounding words. You seem to be reading way more into my statements than there actually is.

[MineralMan]

"I dont think you are any less a patriot for not saying those words. But, you handle it correctly by simply not saying them - not attempting to have them removed. . ."

OK, but not everyone feels as you do. I attended this year's Veteran's day ceremonies at the local cemetery, since I'm a veteran. When it came time to say the Pledge, I did it as I always do. A guy next to me, another veteran, I'm sure, swore at me afterwards, then called me a traitor for not saying "under God."

I just smiled at him.

[wardaddy]

Thanks....

[talleyman]

I eagerly await the herd of ACLU lawyers rushing to his defense - please do update me.

[proudofthesouth]

I have been against Judge Moore and his "rock" since night one. However, within the past couple of days I've come to see this fight as a fight over state rights versus federal rights and if it comes down to that; I'm on the side of the state. After all, this is what the civil war was fought over. The south lost the last war. Perhaps somehow, someway, we won't loose this one.

[MineralMan]

"Being an athiest, do you believe that the earth happened by chance?"

Huh? Chance? Not at all. The laws of physics have little to do with chance, except perhaps on the most basic subatomic level. I'm not a physicist or a cosmologist, so I can't say I understand all the ins and outs of the origins of the Earth or the universe.

Quite frankly, it doesn't matter all that much to me. It's here. I'm here. It was here before I got here and it'll be here after I'm dead. I'm a lot more concerned with what I'll cook for dinner tonight than I am with the origins of the Universe.

[MineralMan]

"However, within the past couple of days I've come to see this fight as a fight over state rights versus federal rights and if it comes down to that; I'm on the side of the state"

Well, since it was the judges in that state who have ruled that the monument goes, I guess you're OK with that, then.