Major power surge in NY? (Blackout is in NYC, Detroit, Ottawa and Toronto, per Fox News)

Thanks for the article. Looks like McGreevy did a good job handling the emergency. Note how he has already called out the national guard, while Bloomberg and Pataki have not. Isn't it better to be safe than sorry?

3,081 posted on 08/14/2003 9:31:41 PM PDT by Diddle E. Squat

To: Diddle E. Squat

The man they just interviewed said he had been at Grand Central since 4 p.m.

Report from NJ: Contrary to Con-Ed people saying they will have power by 5 or 6 a.m., NJ Gov office saying they are told it could be 12 hours.

Penn Station news: Amtrak made a wrong backup move and screwed up a signal. Took an hour plus to clear up. Now limited service has resumed out of the city.

WNBC has a wealth of info (and rumors).

3,082 posted on 08/14/2003 9:33:50 PM PDT by CedarDave (Were you in Georgia or New York when the lights went out?)

To: Diddle E. Squat

However they have to have an emergency plan for if PATH is out of service, since that is exactly what happened on 9/11.

In a case like this they will do their best, but when you have a catastrophic system-wide failure like this there is really very little that you can do. New Jersey Transit carries tens of thousands of passengers into Manhattan every day, as does PATH. There is simply no way to accommodate all of these people using another means of travel. Especially when these numbers exceed the through-put at the bus terminal on a normal day.

3,083 posted on 08/14/2003 9:34:30 PM PDT by Alberta's Child

Close, Dallas actually, where 90 degrees is a cool day.

I just love Fox's troublemaker reporter David Lee Miller's question, "Are you angry at the gov't's failure to deal with the crisis?" Sheesh, he sounded just like Bill Press.

3,084 posted on 08/14/2003 9:34:50 PM PDT by Diddle E. Squat

To: Diddle E. Squat

check out the article I posted at #3080

3,085 posted on 08/14/2003 9:35:43 PM PDT by Mo1 (I have nothing to add .. just want to see if I make the cut and paste ;0))

For the record: Incandescant lights on my desk in Elkhart, Indiana grew noticeably brighter for about five seconds. Then a quick blackout, maybe a half second. Checked into FR a short time later to learn of the Homer Simpson Disaster 2003.

Felt so sorry for those folks in NYC I had to drink an extra cold pitcher of brew tonight.

3,086 posted on 08/14/2003 9:36:44 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew

To: Diddle E. Squat

I can't stand McGreevey, but I must admit that he has come across as very competent in this whole thing. He just tells everyone exactly what the state is doing, explaining what the priorities are, and assuring people that they will eventually get home tonight somehow.

3,087 posted on 08/14/2003 9:36:57 PM PDT by Alberta's Child

To: Diddle E. Squat

David Lee Miller needs to be fired. This is not the time for his hysterical interviewing method.

3,088 posted on 08/14/2003 9:37:50 PM PDT by Conservababe

I was in LA too, but fortunately not anywhere near the riots.

As an aside -- I looked at your page. Neat pictures. :)
I am sure the Earth looks wonderful and peaceful from very far away.

3,089 posted on 08/14/2003 9:38:25 PM PDT by FairOpinion

...and the Clinton's are brokering the deal through Kenneth Lay and the rest of their contributors from Enron.</>

Oh please don't tell me I am the very first to hear Hillary mention Enron yes she did.

Her first interview was with CNN. I shouted out to husband "Listen, listen, listen.....I betch twenty bucks she mentions Enron."

Well she didn't mention it that time but later YES SHE DID, to Larry King via phone interview.

I predicted it first and I win the prize.

Take it to the bank Terry McAuliffe is calling every Democrat with a "d" in their party affiliation and telling them at each and every chance to mention the Enron word.

See Terry McAuliffe still thinks Americans are idiots and live their lives based on sound bites. As if there was no Internet, conservative talk radio or 9/11 had never happened.

Watch Meet the Depressed, Chris Matthes...all the Sunday shows and remember you read it here first....

THE NEW DEMOCRATIC SPIN....THE BLACKOUT WAS CAUSED BY ENRON!

3,090 posted on 08/14/2003 9:39:52 PM PDT by Fishtalk

What I mean is that from the time of the intial fault that started the cascade of events in 65 to the time when the last area was affected by a blackout it was only ten seconds. They operators did not get any prior warning and thus did not have time to respond. The blcakouts that happened a few years ago out west had a similiar time fram. The intial incident in the first blackout was a faulty line going from the Jim Bridger power plant in Wyoming to the pacific north west. The problem propagated all the way into southern california in less than 20 seconds if I remember right.

They keep talking about a cascade failure. I am going to give an example to try and explain what that is. Lets say we have a transmission line that is supplying power to a large metropolitan area. The transmission line fails for one reason or another. Since electric power was moving through it you now have two unbalanced situations. On one side you have to much power. Excessive voltage can cause equipment to trip. Part of the grid might try to speed up and pull out of step with the rest of the grid (All generators that are connected to the same grid spin at exactly the same speed. If a system imbalance causes part of the grid to have excess power it can pull out of step. This is very bad news for a variety of reasons I don't have time to go into hear.) All of that excess power has to go somewhere. The system might try to save itself by shedding generation. Typically that is not done with relays but requires operator intervention. On the other side of the system you now have to litle power. All of the generators will start to slow down. Running a generator at lower thatn rated frequency can damage it. Indeed it can damage anything connected to the grid that uses a motor or winding. The system would probably try to load shed. This means it would start shutting off groups of consumers in an effort to find equallibrium between demand and supply. The problem is that each time you shed load you shock the system, sending a huge jolt of power bouncing around all over the place. If other equipment exceeds its operating paramaters it can be tripped off line by it's protective relays, triggering more load shedding. To be honest I do not have any practical experience with load shedding schemes, mine is all theoretical, I have a much better background in generators.

The way the system is supposed to work is that you have excess capacity on line. It takes a little time for the excess generation to ramp up to full power so your system frequency will slow down some but hopefully recover before it's too late.

As an example, one of my customers used to be a cogeneration plant in west Texas. When comanche peak tripped one of their reactors the whole state power grid would slow down. This customer's units were programmed to go automatically to peak load when an underfrequency event occurred. I belive the units would start responding at 59.7 Hz. ( Many generator units have two Ratings Full Load and Peak Load. Peak load is only to be used in emergencies as it is very hard on the machines) Sorry for the long winded explanations but I have had a full evening of watching commentators on tv not stating much useful information. Had to get this off of my chest.

3,091 posted on 08/14/2003 9:41:47 PM PDT by Fellow Traveler

My power just came on, most of NYC is still out.

3,092 posted on 08/14/2003 9:42:00 PM PDT by Coleus (God is Pro Life and Straight and gave an innate predisposition for self-preservation and protection)

To: Fellow Traveler

3,093 posted on 08/14/2003 9:42:52 PM PDT by null and void

Very interesting, the info on that thread. It appears the vunerability is the wide communication network necessary to monitor all of the nodes.
This is similar to systems I work with on tankers, although they are DSC/PLC. A self contained network.

Because they are so widely distributed over various networks, it would be entirely possible to "hack" these controllers.

And if someone really understood the system they would only have to hack one controller. From what I have read on this thread, a generating plant will trip off line in two cicumstances, if it is overloaded and too many amps are being drawn, or if the generator is underloaded it will trip off to prevent overspeeding.

So if you could, via hacking, open one major relay, say near the Niagra power plant, the generator would trip off line because it was underloaded. Now quickly close the relay and the load soars on the grid, because you have already lost one major producer.

Now the nearest generators are overloaded, and begin to trip off line before their windings get fried. The cascade starts, and maybe comm network overload because of worm slows reponse times, and the blackout spreads much wider than it would under normal cicumstances.

Thats my scenario/speculation. Any techs or engineers out there to analyze this?

3,094 posted on 08/14/2003 9:44:47 PM PDT by ThirdMate

To: Alberta's Child

Yes, he does seem calm and competent. Bloomberg sounds like a Public Service Message. He tells New Yorkers to go home. How? I suppose he means them to use those bicycles he told them to buy. And then he says to open the windows. Can many apartment dwellers in high rise really do that? He makes me laugh, really.

3,095 posted on 08/14/2003 9:45:07 PM PDT by Conservababe

Interesting article. So if they could prevent the spread, why couldn't other cities?

I also found this interesting -- what was the disturbance?

"If such a large area was affected, it must be a very severe disturbance," said Vittal, member of a national industry-university research group that studies the reliability of the power system.

3,096 posted on 08/14/2003 9:45:52 PM PDT by FairOpinion

AS of a few minutes ago on MSNBC they said the power problem started in Canada. I came to this conclusion several hours ago.
The entire grid for the North East plus Ohio, etc. is tied into Canada, specifically the Hydro Electric Project in James Bay. Most of the North Eastern power companies, etc. buy a lot of their power from there because it is so cheap. They haven't really built a lot of new power plants since James Bay came online. If James Bay, mainly, and other hydro plants in Canada are knocked out there will not be any way the Power companies in the North East, etc. will be able to replace that source and there will have to be rolling blackouts, etc. for a very long time until James Bay came back online. There is nothing that can be done anytime soon to correct that regardless. The U.S. government would be absolutely powerless.

3,097 posted on 08/14/2003 9:47:15 PM PDT by Captain Peter Blood

To: Fellow Traveler

So this reacted just like the faulty line CA? Similar situation?

3,098 posted on 08/14/2003 9:47:49 PM PDT by Calpernia (Innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does.)

"Oh please don't tell me I am the very first to hear Hillary mention Enron yes she did."

---

I heard her too. I couldn't believe it, but then again, knowing Hillary, it's only surprising she didn't blame the blackout directly on the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy. She was disgusting.

3,099 posted on 08/14/2003 9:48:24 PM PDT by FairOpinion

Interesting article. So if they could prevent the spread, why couldn't other cities?

I have no idea, but someone or something was not doing their/it's job

3,100 posted on 08/14/2003 9:49:45 PM PDT by Mo1 (I have nothing to add .. just want to see if I make the cut and paste ;0))

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