Posted on 08/10/2003 10:34:43 AM PDT by altura
We had discussed posting what happened in our Episcopal churches this Sunday morning.
I’m in the diocese let by Bishop Stanton, one of the 11 Bishops who walked out of the General Assembly in protest. He wrote a letter to all the parishioners to be read to each congregation by the Priest.
Our Priest did not want to read the letter and said so. However, she did because she had taken a vow to obey the Bishop. In itself the letter didn’t say much other than expressing his deep concern for the direction of the Church and announcing the meeting on October 12th to which all of the Priests and other leaders of the diocese will be expected to attend.
He also mentioned the meeting called in England by the Archbishop of Canterbury.
Prior to her reading this letter, she preached on the lesson from Ephesians, which was read today, quoting the following:
“Put away from you all bitterness and wrath and anger and wrangling and slander, together with all malice, and be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ has forgiven you.”
She also suggested we e-mail Bishop Stanton with our opinions.
Does anyone else have an experience to share?
Bishop Taylor is with us frequently, though. Did I mention we have three bishops? The diocese is Sisk's, though.
There are doubtless those in ministry, both male and female, whose presence there have nothing to do with a call of God, but a godly woman can be an effective leader, and arguably a better one than a liberal male who preaches a social gospel from the pulpit.
"All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify." (1 Corin. 10:22)
If the Bible is very clear -- as I think it is -- that a heterosexual indulging in homosexual activity for the sake of variety and gratification is not following the will of God, does that automatically say that that is the only sort of homosexual activity there could ever be?
"My own personal conclusion is that I can see a case for acknowledging faithful same-sex relationships," he added.
I was actually shocked by the total lack of logic in this statement; however, later that day I was reading an article about the MSP convention and one of the "gay bishop's" supporters gave the EXACT line to the reporter.
I believe this is now the theology that they will try to pass off as biblical. The Archbishop, IMHO, is on the side of the homosexuals on this one.
When I was younger, I thought there would be nothing wrong with female priests (I am Catholic); however, after watching the reality of it in the Episcopal church, I have completely reversed myself.
It seems that when women start taking over churches, this is when you see a great increase in the type of gender/sexual politics and new-ageism that leads to the kind of outcome we have seen in Minneapolis.
No, but we do have "quote of the day" and I would certainly nominate this one from post #60:
"The weeds of socialism are slowly choking the Tree of Liberty."
Well, I can give you MY perspective on it. Sin is sin, period. Robinson should have never been allowed to remain in the priesthood in my opinion. I am not sure how canon law is set up to deal with such a situation. But here is why I think this became such a critical issue.
I began to be concerned quite a few years ago when there were those in the church who were making noises about the inevitability of the ordination of openly practicing homosexuals to the priesthood. I was in a very conservative diocese at the time and it was pretty much rejected outright by all but the most liberal members of our diocesan body. Once ordination of homosexuals became a possibility, said queers had to find a diocese that would be in support of their aspirations because it is impossible to rise through the hierarchy of the Episcopal church without the support of both a local parish and the diocese of which it is a part. Once the occasional ordination of a homosexual of a deacon or priest occurred, it wasn't too difficult to look at it as something that was a sin within THAT diocese as long as it wasn't condoned in our own and wasn't "officially" sanctioned by the national church.
With a bishop it is different though. A bishop is an overseer of the priests as well as being the standard bearer for the diocese and must be approved by the national church. Once this happens, as it did with the acceptance of Robinson, the entire church is affected, not only nationally, but internationally and it becomes the problem for every communicant because we submit to the headship of the church. The problem is, the headship of the church is supposed to be in submission to the Lord. It is not unlike the idea of a wife being in submission to her husband, but the husband in turn, is supposed to be in submission to the Lord. The husband has no authority to cause his wife to sin. This is in effect what the church is doing, causing US to sin by submitting to the headship of one who is in rebellion against God. Because of that, I feel that I can no longer be a part of the church, but I do hope that the meeting in October of the conservative church leaders will produce an answer that we can live with.
Hope that helps.
Bishop Stanton does not approve of this action but signed a joint letter of support to the Bishop who has ruined the Catholic church of Dallas.
Your priest is fine with the decision. You need to look at your parish not what you should tell the bishop.
This is what I am hoping for. I think if the Anglican Communion severs ties with the apostate churches, the rest of us can can heal and continue to serve God as part of the larger church.
I too refuse to use the word gay to describe homosexuals. That came directly from a remark I heard in a Christian teaching some years ago that they are not "gay", as the word implies, creating an image of people who are carefree and happy, but they are really the most wretched and miserable of people because they have chosen to live a life separated from God in a manner that God cannot bless.
Absolutely correct. Which is why I'm not Roman Catholic.
My better half comments:
You are preaching to the choir! However, you can't be a communicant member of a church which no longer professes the faith in which you believe.
It is a big deal to go church hunting after you have found a church community that has become your family.
I think it is a near perfect resolution and would put the burden of responsibility where it belongs, squarely on the shoulders of those who are intent on defying both the church and God. Why should the faithful pay the price for those who are in rebellion against God.
"I think we should stick to this issue. The women thing has been decided."
was telling and unfortunate because the ordination of women has a direct bearing upon the recent decision and the discussion at hand. Episcopal Church's ordaining women was a fateful sign that the denomination, as a whole had chosen social evolution, political correctness and expediency over scripture.
Their choice of a practicing homosexual as Bishop is just the latest step in their apostasy and abandonment of God's Word as the determining factor in what the denomination believes and how they live their lives (faith and practice). Scripture has spoken on the subject of women pastors/women priests and the problem is it didn't fit with what they wanted to do. So the denomination substituted it's will for God's Word.
The ordination of women is not scriptural from both the order of creation and the historic fall of our first parents Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Up until the early 20th century, few Christian denominations or groups allowed women to be ordained. Since that time, most of the liberal denominations have accepted female ministers and pastors and many mainline denominations, including the Episcopal Church, are following suit.
Those promoting the ordination of women cite Gal. 3:28 as the core or “heart” of the New Testament instruction to the church regarding the subject and the proof text concerning the ordination of women and the functional roles of Christian men and women within the church. However, a thorough exegesis of Galatians 3:28 and the surrounding passages reveals they do not refer to a new social structure nor do they support or even enter into a discussion of the idea of gender impartiality. This text instead focuses on justification. Paul is talking about those who are saved, not those who hold an office. He affirms that God accepts all through faith in Jesus Christ, without any discrimination. Thus, the nature of salvation (salvation is totally of God without regard to the status of those saved) and one’s spiritual standing before God (united/one and equally blessed in Christ, joint-heirship of women in Christ)--not the role of women within the church--is in view.
While women are equal to men in the eyes of God, they are different. According to His will, women may serve in a multitude of roles within the church, ministering to women, children, etc. However, God’s Word is clear that they are not to assume positions of authority over men for the following reasons.
Christ gave His church the public, pastoral ministry of Word (Mt. 28:19; Eph 4:11 -12; Rom 10:15; 1 Cor. 4:1; 2 Cor. 4:1). The church is to entrust this ministry to faithful and able men (1 Tim 3:2 and Ti 1:7-9). This teaching is reinforced, in both passages in which the qualifications of a bishop or elder are listed, (1 Timothy 3:1-2, Titus 1:5-6). The candidate must be "the husband of one wife." These offices are clearly open to men only given that a woman obviously cannot fulfill this most basic qualification.
According to 1 Cor. 14:34b-35 women are to keep silent and to be in submission when in church. If they want to clarify some theological point, they are instructed to wait and approach their husband at home. These statements totally exclude women from becoming ministers or pastors.
Paul's statement in 1 Tim. 2:11-15 that he would not "permit a woman to teach or to usurp authority over a man" is not based upon societal or cultural norms, rather it is directly tied in verses 13-14 to both the order of creation and the historic fall of our first parents Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.
While women are given significant tasks and responsibilities for service within the church (Rom. 16:1; Tit. 2:3 – 5, 2Tim. 1:5; 3:14 – 15), they are not allowed to assume responsibility for public pastoral teaching and preaching in the church. To allow otherwise is to seriously depart from the revealed will of God as revealed in Scripture.
In closing no matter what our personal opinions or desires may be, if we name the name of Christ, God's Word is our ONLY and supreme authority for faith and practice. We cannot say that we are walking with the Lord and enjoying fellowship with Him if we are living in direct disobedience with God's Word, no matter what the issue.
Throughout the Old Testament, the Levitical priesthood was reserved for men only. It is also telling that God's qualifications for the office of pastor, elder/bishop is reserved for men only. I didn't set the rules, God did. As for the New Testament, there is not one women listed or mentioned as an elder or pastor. The closest thing to a woman leading a church is the false/self proclaimed prophetess Jezebel within the church in Thyatira. To my knowledge this is the only instance and it resulted in sexual immorality and spiritual apostasy!
18“And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this:
19‘I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first.
20‘But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
21‘I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
22‘Behold, I will throw £her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
23‘And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according
to your deeds. 24‘But I say to you, the rest who are in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not known the deep things of Satan, as they call them—I place no other burden on you.
25‘Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.
26‘He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;
27AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father;
28and I will give him the morning star.
29‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ (Revelation 2:18 - 29)
The choice of a practicing homosexual as Bishop is just the latest in an on-going decision on the part of the Episcopal Church to supplant God's Word with the wisdom and advice of mere men and women.
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