Gibson's gaffe. Mel Gibson needs to take a history class.

Jewsweek ^ | 7/31/03 | Regenstein

[DPB101]

Gibson's gaffe. Mel Gibson needs to take a history class. It was the Romans, not the Jews, who were the Christ killers.

The flood of recent articles and publicity on Mel Gibson's forthcoming movie on Jesus' crucifixion have failed to mention the most important point about this controversy: if the movie does tell the truth about the cruelty and brutality of Jesus' crucifixion, it will make it clear that it was the Romans, not the Jews, who are the real "Christ killers".

According to the Christian Bible ( the "New Testament", especially the Gospel of Mark), Jesus, his family, and virtually all of his followers and disciples at the time were Jews. Jesus preached almost exclusively to the Jews ("the multitudes"), who dined and walked with him. It was his popularity with the Jewish people that caused Jesus to be killed by the ruling Roman authorities; and it was Jews who took Jesus off the cross, prepared him for "burial," mourned him, and then got the blame for the crime.

While a small clique of Jewish collaborators in the ruling classes are purported to have urged the Romans on, they had no real political power, all of which was held by the ruling Romans. All accounts make it clear that it was Romans who condemned Jesus to death, tortured him, put a crown of thorns on his head, spat on him, crucified him, even ran him through with a sword, fearing that this popular Jewish reformer with a huge Jewish following was a threat to Roman law and order.

The Romans went on to kill Jesus' closest disciples Peter and Paul, along with countless other Jewish "Christians", and eventually killed or expelled from the region almost all of the Jews, thus setting the stage for 2,000 years of Jewish suffering and persecution, and for the violence and territorial disputes that plague the Holy Land today.

It is unfortunate that Gibson's movie will apparently fail to make it clear who really killed Jesus, and instead will repeat the ancient blood libels that actually contradict the New Testament's account of the murder, and which have been used since that time to stir up hatred for Jesus' own people.

Indeed, the New Testament account of these events could be used to discredit Gibson's movie, which he claims is based on the truthful version of events as set forth in the Christian bible.

[ATOMIC_PUNK]

Th truth is a wonderful thing!

[OldEagle]

"This must be a terrific movie. All the right people hate it."

Right! No Oscar for Mel.

[hellinahandcart]

Are we sure there are not two Lewis Regensteins?

I looked at the guy's picture in Jewsweek, and he doesn't look 60. (of course, he wouldn't be the first person to submit a younger picture, or airbrush the hell out of a new one)

But the writing style isn't all that similar either.

[SauronOfMordor]

And then meditate on the parable of the master who sent his servant out to gather travelers and beggars from the countryside for a feast, after all the master's friends turned down his invitation.

There were a number of parables on that subject. Matthew 21:33 comes to mind

[RaceBannon]

The Romans didnt consider Hima threat. They tried to let Him go at first. In fact, Pilate WANTED to meet Jesus and see the Miracles he heard of.

When the crowd demanded He be killed, the Romans consented. Both sides were equally guilty in that, one, thinking He was guilty, and the other killing Him to be politically correct!

Also, He came out and said it several times who He was, but also backed it up with the miracles done in front of hundreds of witnesses

[RaceBannon]

Technical point, but those who believed as Stephen did were later called Christians.

However, that is a great point!

Since Jesus was THE MESSIAH, To the Jew First, THEN the gentiles, How the name changed, that is strange.

That and the form of Worship, the first believers were Jews, when they worshipped it should have been according to what they saw in the Temple, only with a different interpretation of many verses, but the liturgy, songs, order of events in worship, should have all been identical to standard Jewish Worship!

There are a lot of things that could be discussed from that point! I attended a Messianic Service once, I wanted to know what was different between orthodox a messianic practice was, they assured me that what they did was identical to the standard Orthodox worship service, only when appropiate, Jesus being the Messiah was mentioned in the subject being taught at that moment.

Almost all people there had only recently left the Orthodox services and started attending the Messianic Service.

[SauronOfMordor]

The site is the mirror of Jews for Jesus. It is a bunch of ex-Christians.

It labels itself as a Hasidic site. It is definitely not a "Jews for Jesus" site. My sister-in-law is a Messianic Jew (alias Jew for Jesus), and the JfJ's are purely and simply Jews who have converted to a brand of Evangelical Christianity and who wish for other Jews to do likewise.

[Varda]

see post 145

[DPB101]

the liberals erringly criticze a movie they havent't seen, and based on that Mel needs to take a history class? WTF is wrong with this man's brain?

The usual. A failure to live and let live. Trying to profit by turning people against each other. Meddling. Arrogance. Same sociopathic behavior we see from liberals everyday.

[Fifth Business]

I think you misunderstand Petronski. He is making the point that all have sinned and are in need of redemption, thereby requiring the events of Christ's death and subsequent resurrection. Christ's death was necessary, regardless of who wanted it or carried it out. So Petronski admits his sins necessitated Christ's death. So did mine, so I'm responsible also.

[Bryan24]

The easiest way to refute error is with The Truth.

---

Luk 23:1 And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate.

Luk 23:2 And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this [fellow] perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King.

Luk 23:3 And Pilate asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answered him and said, Thou sayest [it].

Luk 23:4 Then said Pilate to the chief priests and [to] the people, I find no fault in this man.

Luk 23:5 And they were the more fierce, saying, He stirreth up the people, teaching throughout all Jewry, beginning from Galilee to this place.

Luk 23:6 When Pilate heard of Galilee, he asked whether the man were a Galilaean.

Luk 23:7 And as soon as he knew that he belonged unto Herod's jurisdiction, he sent him to Herod, who himself also was at Jerusalem at that time.

Luk 23:8 And when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: for he was desirous to see him of a long [season], because he had heard many things of him; and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him.

Luk 23:9 Then he questioned with him in many words; but he answered him nothing.

Luk 23:10 And the chief priests and scribes stood and vehemently accused him.

Luk 23:11 And Herod with his men of war set him at nought, and mocked [him], and arrayed him in a gorgeous robe, and sent him again to Pilate.

Luk 23:12 And the same day Pilate and Herod were made friends together: for before they were at enmity between themselves.

Luk 23:13 And Pilate, when he had called together the chief priests and the rulers and the people,

Luk 23:14 Said unto them, Ye have brought this man unto me, as one that perverteth the people: and, behold, I, having examined [him] before you, have found no fault in this man touching those things whereof ye accuse him:

Luk 23:15 No, nor yet Herod: for I sent you to him; and, lo, nothing worthy of death is done unto him.

Luk 23:16 I will therefore chastise him, and release [him].

Luk 23:17 (For of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast.)

Luk 23:18 And they cried out all at once, saying, Away with this [man], and release unto us Barabbas:

Luk 23:19 (Who for a certain sedition made in the city, and for murder, was cast into prison.)

Luk 23:20 Pilate therefore, willing to release Jesus, spake again to them.

Luk 23:21 But they cried, saying, Crucify [him], crucify him.

Luk 23:22 And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let [him] go.

Luk 23:23 And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. And the voices of them and of the chief priests prevailed.

Luk 23:24 And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required.

Luk 23:25 And he released unto them him that for sedition and murder was cast into prison, whom they had desired; but he delivered Jesus to their will.




Acts 2:36 - Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

[Varda]

"Pope Pius IX was the last pontiff to advocate putting European Jews into ghettoes. He likened them to dogs.

Even CNN notes that this claim is simply an allegation that's bandied about. Pope Pius IX was hardly an advocate of putting Jews in ghettos since he was the one who abolished ghettos in Rome.

"It seems clear from the historical record, in fact, that Pius had no hatred of Jews. Upon his election in 1846, he was hailed by Jews as their best friend in Italy. In 1847, Mose Israel Kazzan, Chief Rabbi at the Israeli University in Rome, dedicated a psalm and prayer to the "glorious and immortal" Pope....
"On the night of April 17-18, 1848, Pius IX ordered that the doors of the Jewish ghetto be knocked down. He abrogated the undignified and humilating tasks the Jews were forced to carry out. He declared that "they were not foreigners," and had their streets patrolled to pretect them from a popular uprising that had broken out aginst the ghetto's emancipation."
http://www.geocities.com/orthopapism/piusix.html

As for your quote from Pope John XXII,
"I was recently told that according to Dr. Eugene Fisher, expert on Jewish-Christian relations with the U.S. Catholic Bishops' Conference, this prayer is not authentic. ... Please, add this disclaimer if you want to cite the prayer. From the Jerusalem Post, Internet Edition"
http://ecumene.org/SHOAH/shalom.htm

Here's another clue. Vatican II overturned no doctrine. Doctrine is synonymous with catechesis. The Catholic catechism has never taught that the Jewish people are responsible for Christ's death.

[mhking]

president of the Interfaith Council for the Protection of Animals and Nature.

[rolling eyes] Oh, joy...

[Alberta's Child]

There's substantial evidence that when the Romans sacked Jerusalem it had a substantial Christian minority ~ maybe as great as 30% of the population. And that didn't mean that the other 70% were entirely Jewish.

The irony here is that those early Christians generally considered themselves (and were considered by others) nothing more than a sect of Judaism! Christianity wasn;t really thought of as an entirely different religion until it became clear to those early Christians that Christ was not going to return during their lifetime.

The sacking of Jerusalem by the Romans had nothing more to do with some sort of Divine Judgment on Jews than it did some sort of Divine Judgment on Christians.

But is was certainly a fulfillment of predictions that had been foretold by Christ throughout His life on earth.

[hopespringseternal]

I have always assumed that this is why Israel paid a terrible price for the rejection of Christ when Jerusalem was sacked by the Romans in 70 AD.

You don't have to assume, the bible says exactly that. Contrary to grossly erroneous popular eschatology, the Olivet discourse is mainly concerned with the destruction of Jerusalem.

When Pilate is forced to go ahead with the crucifixion, he washes his hands literally and symbolicly while the Jews are shouting for Jesus' blood to be "on our heads and our children's heads."

It's a shame no one has read Josephus' account of the seige and destruction of Jerusalem. You can't read it without coming to the conclusion that an awful judgement came upon the Jews. I don't believe that slaughter has ever been repeated in history. While more have been killed, the killing stretched over years. In the sacking of Jerusalem, over a million Jews were killed in just a few hours time. So great and quick was the slaughter that Josephus records blood flowing to the extent that it put out house fires and was ankle deep in the streets.

[sweet_diane]

I'm looking forward to seeing the movie... I understand that Mr. Gibson feels compelled to make this movie and as a fan of his, I feel compelled to see it. :)

I don't have time to read all this thread but I do want to share with ya'll a book I found very interesting that chronicles the last week of Christ's life, Og Mandino's The Christ Commission. I found the old paperback on the shelf at a Drug and Alcohol Treatment center where I volunteer and couldn't put it down! It can be found over at amazon, should anyone be interested.

[Alberta's Child]

I hate to tell you, but Jesus did commit blasphemy.

LOL. Now there is an intriguing thought.

If Christ was the Son of God, then He could not possibly have committed blasphemy. If He wasn't the Son of God, then he certainly did.

Since this goes right to the irreconcilable differences between Christianity and Judaism, there is no reason to debate the point any further.

[breakem]

I agree, thanx for making my point.