Note: this topic is from 7/10/2003.Thanks blam.
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Posted on 07/10/2003 5:56:52 PM PDT by blam
Madoc In America
Native American Histories in the USA
Is truth stranger than fiction? Of course it is; it always has been One subject that has been debated for the last four hundred years was whether or not a Khumric-Welsh Prince called Madoc discovered America. Queen Elizabeth I was persuaded by her advisors that this was so and the Khumric-Welsh discovery was put forward as somehow giving England a prior claim in the political wrangles over first rights in the New World of the Americas.
No one ever thought to investigate the British records. Caradoc of Llancarfan wrote about it circa 1140. The information was made available to historian Richard Hakluyt. Immediately, things started to go wrong. Thinking that the Madoc story was a continuation of the same history, Hakluyt wrongly dated the voyages around 1170, which, of course, would be impossible as Caradoc of Llancarfan could not have recorded voyages which took place 14 years after he died!
A certain William Fleming, of Flemingston, near Cardiff, wrote poetry on the subject before Caradoc died, so the idea of voyages being made in 1170 becomes even weaker. In 1625, the Archbishop of Canterbury wrote a world history that stated that a Welsh Prince had discovered America and that, "King Arthur knew of it". This means voyages in the sixth century...
We know that "King Arthur" was, in fact, two people, which clears up the confusion of Polydore Vergil, historian at the Court of Henry VIII, relating to how "King Arthur" could defeat the Romans and also the Angles, the Saxons and others. "Arthur" would have been 250 years old. We know now, thanks to our King Arthur Research Project, that Arthur I was son of Magnus Maximus and led the British armies into Gaul in 383, defeated the Romans at Sassy-Soissons and chased the Roman Emperor Gratian to Lyons, where he executed him.
Arthur II, son of King Meurig, and a sixth generation direct male descendant of Arthur I, is the Sixth Century Arthur of legend.
What has this to do with America? Well, King Arthur, son of Meurig, had brothers and sisters. His brothers were Idnerth, who was murdered, St Pawl, known as "King Poulentius" in the Lives of Saints, Ffrioc, who was killed by Morgan Mwynfawr, and Madoc Morfran, the Cormorant. If we begin to research the sixth Century Madoc Morfran some extraordinary and startling facts emerge. For instance, the best recorded and defining event of "Dark Age" Britain was the devastation caused by debris from a comet, which struck in 562. Dr Victor Clube, Professor of Astrophysics at Oxford University, estimates this as having been an equivalent of a scatter of at least 100 Hiroshima-size atomic bombs. Unsurprisingly, great tracts of land were rendered uninhabitable and populations were wiped out, giving rise to subsequent literature relating to "The Great Wastelands" of Arthurian Britain, the "Yellow Plague" and the "Coming Of The Dragon". Seen in this context, all are symbolic of the same cataclysmic event…
A wealth of ancient manuscript evidence preserves the records of Madoc Morfran's voyages to Er-Yr meaning "towards that which is beyond", in search of new and habitable lands. Eryr means "land of eagles" and is usually attributed to Snowdonia in Gwynedd, but Er-Yr is, in fact, America. The records were obviously both religiously and politically incorrect; religion preached that God had created a safe, stable solar system and that stones could not fall from the heavens. The records tell us of a voyage by Madoc Morfran where he was believed lost and then "miraculously" re-appeared after ten years. No ship could sail west into the Atlantic for ten years and be supplied and return, so the event was truly remarkable. Madoc even brought a brown skinned man home with circa 572…
The records tell of the great new lands across the Western ocean and, in 573, Admiral Gwenon was sent out to check Madoc's star reckonings, which were doubted. Gwenon returned, and a fleet of 700 ships was assembled. It sailed for Er-Yr in 574. Anyone having a negative knee jerk reaction to all this would do well to keep an open mind. The evidence for Madoc, son of King Meurig, brother of King Arthur ll, is formidable, to say the least. So also is the surviving physical evidence in both Britain and in North America.
We have done a great deal of research into the question of the ancient British navy and its capabilities. (This will be published in the very near future and is unusually detailed. Much of the research was done in the early-mid 1980s. We have recently updated it with new and important hard evidence.) Welsh shipbuilders were the best in the business and many ancient Khumric Kings fought wars of movement that relied upon their being able to move large numbers of troops and vast quantities of supplies from place to place. Oddly enough, some modern historians claim that Arthur ll could not have fought such wars of movement because the Khumry were "primitive". And yet they are quite happy for other tribal groups, the Angles, the Saxons, the Vikings and others to have sailed long distances in ships of great speed and manoeuvrability. The double standard is immediately obvious but ships more ancient than those used by Arthur and his contemporaries have been located around Britain's shores. Indeed, ancient Khumric-British history is a story of two seaborne mass migrations!
Jim Michael, President of the Ancient Kentucke Historical Association, and one of our most active US supporters, takes up the tale: "In the early 1800s a Dr. Ward was summoned to the White Water area of Indiana to treat the people of a village of Native Americans who were dying of, perhaps, smallpox. One of the last surviving men, who called himself a king, asked if he could give Dr. Ward some sacred information. He told Ward that the member of the tribe who was to have received this "Lleni Llenape" information was dead, and there was no one left to pass it on to. He then handed him 148 sticks each of which had carving upon it."
"Dr Ward later gave these sticks to Professor Constantine Rafinesque of Transylvania College. Rafinesque and Eli Lilly went back to the tribal area to get more information on the history, called the "Wallam Ollam". They met with several of the remaining elders and learned that there was a chant that went with each stick. One of the sticks told of a great flood, and another of the creation myth. The remaining sticks told what happened when different kings were leading their people. It appeared to be a chronology of their tribal leadership. Eli Lily published the Wallan Ollam in book form and gave every member of the Indiana Historical Society a copy."
"The bards of Britannia also recorded all the births and deaths of nobility on sticks, and on special occasions they brought them out into public and sang their story to all. It is very hard to believe that two historical record systems could be independently invented. Of course, the two men had a bit of trouble understanding the wording but they did the best they could to write down what they heard."
Sounds crazy? Not really; the best part is that the Delaware histories tell of a great and powerful nation of "White men" who came to the Kentucky and Indiana regions in antiquity and that only an unprecedented alliance of all the Mid Western and Eastern tribes was able to fight against them. Had Rafinesque and Lilly known that Gwallam Oll-means "The Organization of Everyone", and that Lleni Llenape means "Secret Knowledge", in the Khumric-Welsh language, then things would have been rather different.
When we realised the massive significance of this information we formed a transatlantic partnership; researchers, historians and supporters in the USA joined us in the early 1990s. Several exchange visits and lectures tours resulted. Alan Wilson travelled to the USA in 1993-4, lectured in colleges and universities, appeared on TV and told the Americans about the Khumric side of the story. The work continues today and, we were encouraged by the publication of The Holy Kingdom (May 2002) in the USA by Invisible Cities Press, which will give interested American readers the correct historical background to both King Arthurs and more besides.
We now know who led the 700-ship expedition to America; the records say it was Arthur II ap Meurig, along with his brother Madoc Morfran and brother-in-law Ammwn Ddu. This, we should point out, is only the beginning…
For political reasons, Humphrey Llwyd and Richard Hakluyt invented a Madoc sailing in 1170 instead of 562; they were only 600 years out! Their fiction made Madoc a son of Owen Gwynedd (an ancestor of Elizabeth I) instead of the copiously well-recorded Madoc son of King Meurig. Wrong family but suitable ancestry for Elizabeth I of England. Then they moved Madoc from his native South East Wales to North West Wales. Wrong territory but very suitable for ancestors of Elizabeth I of England. The result? A deliberately targetted, early political and religious attack upon our immensely valuable, well documented and provable British history.
But that's OK. We are following in the tradition of truth set in motion by Bardic scholars in ancient times. Their work was understood, researched and republished from the earliest times and we are carrying on the noble tradition of truth in British history. The stones and monuments are where the ancient manuscripts tell us they should be and the site of every battle and, indeed, every significant historical event can be tracked down using the same information. What is good for Britain is good for America too, as we discovered. Riddles in the ancient poetry and other stories became clear when we understood that Madoc, and Arthur, had indeed engaged upon a very real voyage to the otherworld.
As a result, we now know the true story of Madoc in America and the detailed evidence is truly remarkable. We are making progress on all fronts and we have archaeological, documentary, oral, radiocarbon dated and other evidence to support our case.
Sure, If you like.
Note: this topic is from 7/10/2003.Thanks blam.
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I just occurred to me that the lleni llenapi might be the Indians on the east coast, NJ I think that were called the leni lenapi.
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| GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother & Ernest_at_the_Beach | |
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Just updating the GGG info, not sending a general distribution.We know now, thanks to our King Arthur Research Project, that Arthur I was son of Magnus Maximus and led the British armies into Gaul in 383, defeated the Romans at Sassy-Soissons and chased the Roman Emperor Gratian to Lyons, where he executed him. Arthur II, son of King Meurig, and a sixth generation direct male descendant of Arthur I, is the Sixth Century Arthur of legend.To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. |
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I am new to this and will try get it right.
A long time ago a read a book on Madoc. Then went to Mobil Bay to see the post that was put up on the Bay. It was not there and had been taken down buy the Alabama gen. soc. as it had nothing to do with Alabama? I still believed that de was there in 1170.
Roland Young, Fresno, Calif.
hello BLAM.
I had never heard of this site until yester day.
I am a grad. of Roosevelt 1952.
I was trying how I fond out about Madoc and I think it was a book in TN called the Abaridgnal history of TN. ? I also have read all of Louis Lamoure’s books.
welcome to FR
10 year-old thread resurrection ping.
Says your account is suspended or banned.
I hope it wasn’t this thread.
Looks can be deceiving...
Welcome skepglen! Blam, see, I told ya, I’m not the only one who finds old topics.
Thanks.
SunkenCiv is your 'go-to-guy' these days, mostly I just watch from the side-lines now.
If you haven’t seen this one, you might enjoy the story.
The “legend of the piasa” with the paisa stealing young women from the indian villages and carrying them off to its cave like a European dragon ... the indian hero finding a chink in its armor and serving himself up as bait while his warriors take their shots at the spot, is not American indian at all, it comes from a very white writer who made it up for a magazine in the 1830s as fiction. The wings did not appear in recreations of the piasa until after his story, in which the ability to fly plays a part.
There were indeed American indian paintings of horned cougars with monster or semi-human faces and serpent tails or bodies on the bluffs that were reported by trappers and explorers and also much earlier by French explorer Marquette. They do appear in engraved shell and pottery from Mississippian times.
But none of the river explorer’s descriptions had wings, certainly not poorly rendered bat or dragon wings. The modrn paintings that have been done on the bluffs in the last century are based more on the fictional children’s tale than on Marquette or historical record. The originals would be more catlike.
The original were vastly different, and the originals really were not that big- Marquette described the painting as being about the size of a calf. The purpose of the piasa paintings was probably to warn travelers of a naturally dangerous spot on the river. The Alton piasa was probably just an uktena, the underwater panther of eastern and southeastern indian lore that lives in whirlpools.
Here’s a very good history and explanation of the legend and towards the middle of the page is a more likely rendition of what was there from indian engravings on shell cups :
http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/2013januarypiasapage1.htm
Bump
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