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The Absurdity of 'Thinking in Language'
the author's site ^ | 1972 | Dallas Willard

Posted on 05/23/2003 3:59:51 PM PDT by unspun

The Absurdity of 'Thinking in Language'
This paper has been read to the University of Southern California philosophy group and the Boston 1972 meeting of the American Philosophical Association, as well as to the Houston meeting of the Southwestern Philosophical Society. Appeared in The Southwestern Journal of Philosophy, IV(1973), pp. 125-132. Numbers in "<>" refer to this journal.

Among the principal assumptions of major portions of philosophy in recent decades have been: (1) That philosophy somehow consists of (some sort of) logic, and (2) that logic is a study of and theory about (some sort of) language. There, of course, follows from these a third assumption: (3) That philosophy is a study of and theory about (some sort of) language--though this implication should not be taken as representing any phase of the historical development of recent philosophizing. Instead of listing these three points as assumptions, it would probably be more correct to regard them as categories or complexes of assumptions; or perhaps, more vaguely still, as 'tendencies' or proclivities of recent philosophical thinking. But precision of these points need not be put in issue here, as this paper does not seek any large-scale resolution of the problem area in question.

The aim here is to examine only one proposition which plays a role in the clearly existent tendencies referred to: Namely, the proposition that we think in or with language. I hope to show, first, that we do not always think in or with language; and then, second, that the very conception of thinking in or with language involves an absurdity. What implications this has for broader philosophical assumptions or tendencies will not be dealt with here, though the implications in question seem to me to be extremely important ones.

That human beings think in language is explicitly stated in such diverse places as ordinary newspapers, the more sophisticated popular magazines and journals, and serious discourse in the humanities and the social sciences, as well as in the technical writings of philosophers. To prove this broad range of consensus would be idle; but, in order to have the philosophical context clearly before us, we may give a few brief quotations. <126> 

     (1) Man, like every living creature, thinks unceasingly, but does not know it: the thinking which becomes conscious of itself is only the smallest part thereof. And, we may say, the worst part:--for this conscious thinking alone is done in words, that is to say, in the symbols for communication, by means of which the origin of consciousness is revealed. (Nietzsche, Joyful Wisdom, sub-sec. # 354)

     (2) Let no one be contemptuous of symbols! A good deal depends upon a practical selection of them. Furthermore, their value is not diminished by the fact that after much practice, we no longer really need to call forth a symbol, we do not need to speak out loud in order to think. The fact remains that we think in words or, when not in words, then in mathematical or other symbols. (Frege, Mind, Vol. 73, p. 156)

     (3) It is misleading then to talk of thinking as of a 'mental activity'. We may say that thinking is essentially the activity of operating with signs. This activity is performed by the hand, when we think by writing; by the mouth and larynx, when we think by speaking; and if we think by imagining signs or pictures, I can give you no agent that thinks. If then you say that in such cases the mind thinks, I would only draw your attention to the fact that you are using a metaphor, that here the mind is an agent in a different sense from that in which the hand can be said to be an agent in writing. (Wittgenstein, Blue Book, pp. 6-7)

     (4) ... The woof and warp of all thought and all research is symbols, and the life of thought and science is the life inherent in symbols; so that it is wrong to say that a good language is important to good thought, merely; for it is of the essence of it. (C. S. Peirce, Collected Papers, II, p. 129)

     (5) Words only matter because words are what we think with. (H. H. Price, Aristotelian Society, Suppl. Vol. XIX, p. 7)

     (6) Theorizing is an activity which most people can and normally do conduct in silence. They articulate in sentences the theories that they construct, but they do not most of the time speak these sentences out loud. They say them to themselves.... Much of our ordinary thinking is conducted in internal monologue or silent soliloquy, usually accompanied by an internal cinematograph-show of visual imagery.... This trick of talking to oneself in silence is acquired neither quickly nor without effort.... (Ryle, Concept of Mind, p. 27. See also pp. 282-83 and 296-97) <127>

     (7)This helps to elucidate the well-known difficulty of thinking without words. Certain kinds of thinking are pieces of intelligent talking to oneself. Consider the way in which I 'thinkingly' wrote the last sentence. I can no more do the 'thinking' part without the talking (or writing) part than a man can do the being graceful part of walking apart from the walking (or some equivalent activity). (J.J.C. Smart, Philosophy and Scientific Realism, p. 89)

These quotations will suffice to establish the context within which philosophers speak of thinking in language (or with language). Many other quotations could be added from the literature.1 It is not assumed here that the persons quoted all occupy the same position with reference to the relationship between thought and language. Yet it would be interesting to see what any of these thinkers, or others who suppose that human beings think in language, could save of their position from the critique which follows.

Uneasiness about the conception of thinking in or with language has been expressed by a number of writers, but only over limited aspects of it.2 Here we shall consider arguments which purport to call the conception into question entirely and in principle. First, consider a reason for rejecting the view that we always think in language. It consists in the fact that thinking often occurs without the production, manipulation, or perception of sense-perceptible signs, without which there is no use of language. Such occurrences often provoke offers of 'A penny for your thoughts.'

Thinking: Whatever we may decide to call them, and however it is that we are conscious of them, there are intentional states of persons, more or less fixed or fleeting, which do not require for their obtaining that what they are about or of be perceived by, or be impinging causally upon, the person involved. In order to think of3 Henry the Eighth, <128> of the first auto one owned, of the Pythagorean theorem, or of the Mississippi River, it is not required that they should disturb my nervous system. Such states (t-states) of persons are often called 'thoughts', especially in contrast with 'perceptions', and being in such a state is one of the things more commonly called 'thinking'. One no more needs to be going through a change of such states in order to be thinking, than he needs to be changing his bodily position in order to be sitting or lying or sleeping. Rarely if ever--as is alleged in the case of mystic contemplation--are these t-states unchanging. Usually they flow, at varying rates, intermingled with person states of many sorts, governed by such transitional structures as inference, goal orientation, objective structures given in perception or in other ways, and elemental association of 'ideas', among others. In what follows, we shall use 'thinking' to cover both the single t-state and the flow of such states, without regard to how intermingled with other person states.

Language: Sense perceptible signs or symbols are an essential constituent of language. It is always false to say that language is present or in use where no signs are present or in use. And, whatever else a sign may be, it is something which is apprehendable via its sensible qualities. That is, it is something which can be either seen, heard, felt, tasted or smelled. Moreover, the use of language requires some level of actual sensuous apprehension of the signs which are in use on the occasion. (Confusion or distortion of this sensuous feedback can render a subject incapable of writing or speaking; and, of course, without perception of the sign-sequences emitted, one cannot understand the person emitting language.)

Now cases can be produced almost at will where thinking occurs without language being present or in use. This, of course, is something which everyone--including the proponent of thinking-in-language--very well knows. It is these cases which, together with the assumption that we always think in language, create what in (7) was called "the well-known difficulty of thinking without words." If, as in (3), "thinking is essentially the activity of operating with signs," then when there are no signs--and when, consequently, the means by which we produce, manipulate, or perceive signs are not functioning--we do have a difficulty. In fact, a difficulty so severe that it amounts to a proof that thinking is not essentially the activity of operating with signs, and that often we think entirely without language. One cannot operate with signs where there are no signs. <129> 

As the above quotations indicate, the most common move made to save 'thinking in language' at this point is the shift to 'silent soliloquy,' as in (6), or to 'pieces of intelligent talking to oneself,' as in (7). These are latter-day shades of John Watson's 'sub-vocal language.' Of course one can talk to oneself or write to onself. But talking and writing to oneself require the production and perception of sensuous signs just as much as talking and writing to another. The realization of this is what drives the thinking-in-language advocate to silent soliloquy or to nonvocal speaking--the written counterpart of which would be invisible writing. That is, they are driven to flat absurdities. A silent soliloquy--that is, silent speaking--is precisely on a par with a silent trumpet solo, for example, or silent thunder. A poet may say:

       Heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard

            Are sweeter; therefore, ye soft pipes, play on;

       Not to the sensual ear, but, more endeared,

            Pipe to the spirit ditties of no tone;...

               (Keats, Ode to a Grecian Urn)

But there are in fact no unhearable melodies, no ears other than the "sensual," no ditties of no tone.

What those who speak of silent discourse have in mind is, no doubt, the fact that interlaced with our thinking of or about things is a great deal of imaging of linguistic entities. (This is especially true of academics or intellectuals in general, because of their great concern with expression of thought. Probably an adequate phenomenology of thinking would exhibit great contrast between them and other classes of persons precisely at the relation between thinking and degree of activity in imaging linguistic entities and events.) But imaging a word is not using a word, any more than imaging a horse is using a horse. Moreover, imaging a word, phrase, or sentence is not producing or perceiving a word, phrase, or sentence any more than imaging a horse is producing or perceiving--or otherwise 'having'--a horse. To image a linguistic sequence is not to have it in a special sort of place--the mind--nor is it to have a special sort of linguistic sequence. To image is to exemplify a certain sort of thinking or intentional state, and a sort which does have interesting relationships with other kinds of thinking. But there is no reason at all to suppose that all kinds of thinking necessarily involve or are accompanied by this kind of thinking (imaging) directed upon language segments. And if there were, it still would not follow that all thinking requires language, since this kind of thinking about language segments is not itself language at all. Nor does it require any <130> language present in order for it to come to pass, since intentional inexistence applies to mental events when language segments are the objects, as well as when sticks and stones and animals are.

Having considered a reason for rejecting the proposition that human beings always think in language, let us now consider whether they ever do. In fact, the difficulty is not, as Smart (above) and others have thought, in seeing how one can think without language, but in seeing how one would think with it. Thinking with or in language must consist in doing something with symbols, and so necessarily involves doing something to them--e.g., producing, altering, or perceiving them. If we would do something with the knife (e.g., cut the bread), we must do something to the knife, (e.g., clasp it in our hands). But, as we have seen, thinking occurs where nothing at all is being done to or with signs, there not being any signs in these cases. The power or act of having or changing t-states--that is, the power or act of thinking--is, then, not a power or act of having or altering linguistic symbols. (It is not, in fact, a power of doing anything with or in anything at all. The profound difference in kinds of powers and acts involved here is what Wittgenstein calls attention to in the last sentence of (3) above.) Thought is, of course, practical, in that it exercises an influence upon, or makes some difference in, the world of sense particulars. But it alone is not capable of acting with the sorts of particulars used in linguistic behavior as its immediate instruments. It is just this incapacity which makes it impossible for the advocates of thinking-in-language to give any account of the mechanisms or the 'how' by which the words in which we, allegedly, think are produced, manipulated, and gotten rid of--though they must be produced (or stored and hauled out), manipulated, and, in some sense, gotten rid of, if we are to think with and in them as our tools or instruments.

Merely to ask the question of how, in detail, this is done in the course of thinking reveals, I believe, the absurdity of 'thinking in language'. Mere thinking can do nothing to signs which might be used in a language, and hence it can do nothing with such signs, or in the act of modifying the conditions of such signs. It is absurd to suppose that one can do x with y without in some way bringing about a change in the condition, state, relations, or properties of y. It is this and only this that I put by saying that it is absurd to suppose that one can do something with y while doing nothing to y.

If it is replied that, of course, the mind or thought does not do these things, but that when we write, speak, hear, see, and otherwise relate to actual words in the actual employment of language, we then are thinking, with bodily parts managing the symbols involved, then it <131> must be pointed out that, while we may indeed also be thinking in such cases, we are not simply thinking. The total event here, to which language certainly is essential, is not thinking. Correct use of language can even occur, as has been pointed out by Wittgenstein, without the occurrence of any peculiarly relevant t-states. On the other hand, thinking does occur without the use of hands, mouth, ears, eyes, fingers in any appropriately relevant manner. Hence, what can only occur by the use of these is not the same as thinking, though it may somehow involve or influence thinking.

Smart remarks in (7) that, when he thinkingly wrote the sentence, "Certain kinds of thinking are pieces of intelligent talking to oneself," he could "no more do the 'thinking' part without the talking (or writing) part than a man can do the being graceful part of walking apart from the walking." This may be true of thinkingly writing the sentence (whatever that means). But it does not follow that one cannot think that certain kinds of thinking are pieces of intelligent talking to oneself without the use of language, though Smart clearly thinks that it does. Of course one cannot thinkingly write without writing. But that is nothing to the point of whether or not we can and do think with or without words. Also, the comparison to graceful walking is not apt. We do, as above shown, sometimes think without words or symbols, while no cases of grace without behavior are known.

Now it is very certainly true that some processes clearly involving thinking as described above depend for their occurrence upon linguistic behavior and the sensible signs which it involves, for example, the processes of learning algebra or the history of the Basques, or learning how to counsel emotionally upset persons. But it is to be noted that these are not themselves processes of thinking, but rather are extremely complex processes involving all kinds of events and entities other than language and other than thinking--e.g., feelings, perceptions, buildings, other persons, days and nights, books, and so on. None of these processes is a process of thinking; and for that reason alone it is invalid to infer from them that thinking is linguistic behavior, or that one thinks with language. What is essential to things or events of a certain sort must be shown essential to them taken by themselves, not in combination with many other things. With reference to the involved processes in question, it might be more appropriate (though it would still be wrong) to say--as some have said in recent years--that we live in or with language. Nevertheless, it is certain that some kind of dependence relation--probably similar to feedback mechanisms--exists between linguistic processes and their sensuous signs, on the one hand, and certain sequences of t-states on the other. What, exactly, this relation <132> of dependence is continues to be veiled by, among other things, a priori assumptions about what thinking and language must be and do. One such assumption is that which holds thinking essentially to be an operation with signs or symbols, or doing something with--or in--linguistic processes or entities.

The view that we (necessarily) think without language is, today, regarded as so outlandish as not to merit serious consideration. But this is not due to a lack of arguments to support it. My object here has been to focus upon certain arguments purporting to show the absurdity of thinking in language. The main points in these arguments are: Thinking does occur without any accompanying language whatsoever, and thus shows itself not to be a power or act of managing linguistic signs, once it is clear what such a sign is. Thinking, as distinct from behavioral processes involving it, can do nothing to signs or symbols, and hence can do nothing with them.


NOTES

  1. See for example, Ramsey's Foundations of Mathematics, p. 138, and Kneale's remarks in Feigl and Sellars, Readings in Philosophical Analysis, p. 42. Return to text.
  2. See S. Morris Engel, "Thought and Language," Dialogue, Vol. 3, 1964, 160-170; Jerome Shaffer, "Recent Work on the Mind-Body Problem," American Philosophical Quarterly, Vol. II, 1965, esp. p. 83; R. Kirk, "Rationality Without Language," Mind, 1967, pp. 369-368; G. Ryle, "A Puzzling Element in the Notion of Thinking," in Studies in the Philosophy of Thought and Action, P. F. Strawson, ed., (Oxford: 1968), pp. 7-23. Interesting remarks on the issues here are also found in Bruce Aune's Knowledge, Mind and Nature, chap. VIII and H. H. Price's Thinking and Experience, Chap. X.  See also Wm. James, "Thought Before Language; A Deaf Mute's Recollections," Mind, Vol. I, 1892; and see Wittgenstein's comments on this in Philosophical Investigations, No. 342. Return to text.
  3. I use only think here, for simplicity; but think that and other structures of such intentional states (and sequences thereof) might also be mentioned. Specifically, I would also wish to hold that instances of thinking that, in the sense of inferring or puzzling something out, occur in the absence of appropriate linguistic entities or activities. Return to text.


TOPICS: Philosophy
KEYWORDS: consciousness; dallaswillard; epistemology; faithandphilosophy; godsgravesglyphs; intelligence; intention; intentionality; language; linguistics; metaphysics; mind; ontology; psychology; semantics; semasiology; semiotics; sense; thinking; thought; willard
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To: donh
hmm? As distinct from self-awareness? The capacity to think about thinking?

I'm sorry I didn't see this earlier.

I do not equate "self-awareness" with consciousness. Our selves are only one of many things we can be conscious of.

My kitty is conscious, but I do not think my kitty has what people usually mean by self-awareness, and my kitty certainly doesn't think about thinking.

In fact, a mosquito is probably conscious on some level.

I have no idea why, but some people have great difficulty identifying consciousness. I used to believe it was a kind of disingenuousness, but no longer believe that. I know they are sincere, but I do not know what the difficulty is.

I also know it is almost impossible to overcome. Nevertheless:

Here is what concsiousness is. It is awareness, it is what is aware of all existence directly, by means of what we call percepts. Material existence is all that we can be directly aware of "consciously." But we cannot be aware of consciouosness itself, directly.

Seeing is one aspect of consciousness, but we cannot see our seeing. We know we see, because we do it. This is true of all consciousness. Just as no one can be directly conscious of someone else's consciousness (you cannot see or hear or feel what anyone else is subjectively seeing, hearing, or feeling) you cannot be directly consious of even your own consciousness. You know you are conscious, because you are, just as you know you can see, because you do it.

Since material existence is that which we are directly conscious of, and we cannot be directly conscious of consciousness itself, it cannot be material existence.

Also, material existence cannot "give rise" to it, like it does to a "flame" or an "explosion," because consciousness has some very peculiar characteristics.

There is only one consciousness (per individual). The same consciousness is conscious of a pain in the big toe, the music playing on the radio, and the itch we are scratching, all at the same time. But all those events are separate, and however much they are processed by the brain, there is no way the brain can make all that separate data be one thing.

The one consciousness has continuity in a way not physical thing can have continuity. It is the same consciousness when we are five years old as it is when we are fifty. This is not just a matter of memory. If it were not the same consciousness, we would not care at forty five, what was going to happen to the fifty year old consciousness, but we do care, and correctly so.

Finally, the content of consciousness is inexplicable as an emergent quality. There is no physical, chemical, or electrical event or configuration thereof that is the smell of a rose, a particular shade of red, or the taste of a chocolate malt. When you or I smell that heavenly aroma of coffee in the morning, if someone proceeds to explain all of the events in the nervous system and the brain and says, that is what that heavenly smell is, I at least will tell him, that smell is no event in my brain. It may be an event in my brain that I am actually conscious of as that smell, but the smell, itself, is something else altogether.

For many people, these things are obvious. For others, they seem unfathomable. I cannot judge if this is a good or bad thing. Personally, I know my consciousness is unique from any material aspect of my being, and I cannot imagine how it cannot be obvious to anyone.

I think some people are afraid to face this uniqueness of consciousness because they think it smacks of mysticism or the supernatural. I assure, I do not believe this necessary characteristic of consciousness in any way requires either mysticism or the supernatural.

(I have not even mentioned rational/volitional consciousness, which is another level of removal from materialness.)

Hank

461 posted on 05/25/2003 5:02:48 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: betty boop; Hank Kerchief
And what HK is obviously doing is trying to deconstruct, taking up with that herd who would dismantle the relational nature of life and the integrity of all we are, and all we are to be, derived by the Other, the master of integrity, for His pleasure.

Just as gnosticism had its stoics and its only apparently opposite hedonists, the severing of what we perceive we know from what we actually know, has its modernists and its postmodernists, as you and Liz so well explain, betty.

That obdurate egocentism does not buy anything, ultimately.

Shame on you, HK.

It is so much better to drink and eat what you cannot buy.
462 posted on 05/25/2003 5:05:10 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: betty boop
Reality...

On the practical, day-to-day level, reality is what we experience or know at the present moment. Tomorrow's reality may be different than todays in this dynamic world. Change is constant, IMO. And, reality in the awake state is different than in the dream state.

463 posted on 05/25/2003 5:07:54 PM PDT by Consort
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To: cornelis
Somethings just ain't up to us.

A very useful gross understatement.

464 posted on 05/25/2003 5:09:47 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: unspun
It can be overstated and understated if Consort has a point.
465 posted on 05/25/2003 5:12:52 PM PDT by cornelis
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To: unspun
Thanks for including me in your response....it makes me feel like maybe someone devoted a nanoo-second to my reply. (Sometimes I feel invisible here! )
So, I appreciate your thoughts in return and will read them over again tomorrow in depth when I have even more time.

I figure this post to you will also balance out the DON'T SPAM ME reply you also received!
:- /
Vhat a voild!
466 posted on 05/25/2003 5:13:06 PM PDT by DaughterofEve (W)
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To: cornelis
Oh, I agree.
467 posted on 05/25/2003 5:17:29 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: betty boop
Before I comment, I think we are beginning to get somewhere. I doubt that any essential view either of us holds is changing, but I think we at least have a clearer understanding of what we mean by some of these concepts.

Fair enough as far as it goes, Hank. But this treatment of the issue loses the idea that reality is not at all dependent on my (or your) conceptualization of it in language.

Of course it doesn't lose the idea "that reality is not at all dependent on my (or your) conceptualization of it in language." Before a concept can be formed, it must first recognize that what it identifies is what it is, and its existence and nature is independent of anyone's observation or comprehension of it. This is necessary becasue a concept identifies what is, as it is, independent of anyone's whim's, whishes, desires, thoughts, or concepts. The concept doesn't do anything to any aspect of reality, it enables us to identify and recognize it.

Plus the idea, "whatever 'is there'," identifies, not merely a category of existents, but of all existents. As such, "whatever 'is there'" isn't terribly useful as a concept.

Of course it is. (Besides, it was your definition.) It's the concept for reality, an extremely useful concept you have used several times today.

Hank

468 posted on 05/25/2003 5:24:31 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: DaughterofEve
Sorry for not responding earlier and thanks for this reply. I'll aim to look into your earlier post again, after I mow the front lawn. I do remember it was something interesting.
469 posted on 05/25/2003 5:31:30 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: Hank Kerchief
The concept doesn't do anything to any aspect of reality, it enables us to identify and recognize it.

Well, the independence of the concept can be viewed in several ways. I hear that observation is in fact determinative. So not independent in every way. The status of this indepedence is often weighed down by an older rationalism, but maybe not so long ago as Kant. Although before Kant, the meaning of subject and object was integral to a third factor: a foundation of truth transcending both, which has never been such an unpopular view, as the workaday world so easily tires of secularism.

470 posted on 05/25/2003 5:35:03 PM PDT by cornelis
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To: unspun
I'll aim to look into your earlier post again, after I mow the front lawn

As difficult as it has been to wade through this thread, I distinctly come away with the distinct impression that if you conceptualized a mowed lawn that is the equivilant of the actual act.

So sit down, pop a beer, and look out the window at your lovely lawn, courtesy of Descarte.

471 posted on 05/25/2003 5:38:18 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Peace through Strength)
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To: tpaine
Still tail chasing, Yappy?
472 posted on 05/25/2003 6:17:09 PM PDT by Roscoe
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To: freedumb2003
So sit down, pop a beer, and look out the window at your lovely lawn, courtesy of Descarte.

Well, too late. Let's try to make it simple though, despite all the pretzel logic. I had real thoughts about really mowing my real lawn. I really did mow my lawn (well, a good bit of it). Now I really have real memories* about having really mown my real lawn.

I see nothing magic in "conceptualization" (just miraculous, just like all the rest). ;-) - - winks to WT & A-G, for their eariler observations about the miraculous.**

____________________________________________
* Oh my, we haven't talked about memory per se, have we? 8-o

** That reminds me, I got a post by someone a short while ago who seemed to be a all things from uniformity evolutionist and he used the word "design." I remembered while I was mowing that I'd failed to chide him/her.

473 posted on 05/25/2003 6:56:42 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: unspun
>> I remembered while I was mowing that I'd failed to chide him/her. <<

Did you use language to make that reminder? Oh, wait, I guess you can't if you buy the premise of this thread. Maybe you only thought you used language. But I am sure your lawn will now stay mowed irrespective of perception. I guess that's as far as can go before I trip on myself.
474 posted on 05/25/2003 6:59:58 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Peace through Strength)
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To: freedumb2003; betty boop
Did you use language to make that reminder?

I'm quite confident that this reminder occured to me not "in" language, though I may have quickly applied language to it and then dealt with the thought through language, in which case I would be thinking linguistically... thinking through language, but not thinking "in" language (language is not the stuff of the thought.)

475 posted on 05/25/2003 7:28:44 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: Alamo-Girl
I hold that view, that consciousness is non-spatial, non-temporal and non-corporeal.

Well, you know that I agree. One day we may come round to the view that consciousness came first, that it is the Author of It All (which is about 179.9 degrees in the other direction from the popular culture). I will be happy enough if we can just bury Materialism.

476 posted on 05/25/2003 8:34:41 PM PDT by Phaedrus
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To: Hank Kerchief
Here is what concsiousness is. It is awareness, it is what is aware of all existence directly, by means of what we call percepts. Material existence is all that we can be directly aware of "consciously." But we cannot be aware of consciouosness itself, directly.

Precepts, I assume you mean....So, how do you deduce from this inexplicable nature of awareness that precepts are the only gatekeepers of awareness? Are precepts a bit more primative in your casting of this question than I am accostomed to seeing? Doesn't unexplicableness sort of augur against closure on this question? Am I employing something other then precepts when I seem to be aware of my dreams? Or do you deny that that's the case? Do you assert that I'm not directly aware of my dreams?

Consciousness is awareness...but we cannot be aware of consciousness?....So, you don't go along with the notion that being conscious has, at least as a subset, being self-aware? So an ameba's light tropism is conscious? I don't suppose you could recast this explanation with a little more concreteness--I believe it's making me a little dizzy trying to follow along in the playbook.

477 posted on 05/25/2003 9:18:05 PM PDT by donh (/)
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To: unspun
1. I was making a comment to you, not asking a question.

2. Participation usually requires two people to be directly talking to each other at some point.

3. I prefer lite spam (less salt), I find regular spam to be too salty for my tastes.

478 posted on 05/25/2003 9:34:58 PM PDT by Paul C. Jesup
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To: Hank Kerchief
. Personally, I know my consciousness is unique from any material aspect of my being, and I cannot imagine how it cannot be obvious to anyone.

So...can your consciousness continue on when your material aspects are scattered to dust? Do you draw a distinction between your consciousness and your incorporial spirit?

479 posted on 05/25/2003 9:45:14 PM PDT by donh (/)
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To: tortoise
I just had to let you know that I very, very strongly agree with your post at 382. You said:

They [symbols] are very real in the same sense that all information is. Symbols (in the information theoretic abstract) describe everything describable, and the more thoughtful people realize that physical objects are actually a complex collections of symbols at their essence. Of course, one could then argue that energy is the ultimate substrate in which symbols manifest, a pervasive field of unknown origin that we only see from differentials in the energy field (as manifested symbols).

I challenge you to go one step further in the manifestation of symbols. It seems to me that much (if not all) of what is perceived as physical “reality” (matter and energy) is a panorama of essentially virtual messenger particles manifest directly from the wave effect. Understanding the information content potential of wave phenomenon in itself ought to be illuminating.

IOW, I suspect that information theory may hold the key for a whole new kind of physics that several physicists believe is needed to resolve the issues between quantum and classical (Schrodinger’s cat, observation paradox, violations of Bell’s inequalities at distance, quantum gravity and time, dark energy, etc.)

My two cents…

480 posted on 05/25/2003 9:51:53 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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