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The Absurdity of 'Thinking in Language'
the author's site ^ | 1972 | Dallas Willard

Posted on 05/23/2003 3:59:51 PM PDT by unspun

The Absurdity of 'Thinking in Language'
This paper has been read to the University of Southern California philosophy group and the Boston 1972 meeting of the American Philosophical Association, as well as to the Houston meeting of the Southwestern Philosophical Society. Appeared in The Southwestern Journal of Philosophy, IV(1973), pp. 125-132. Numbers in "<>" refer to this journal.

Among the principal assumptions of major portions of philosophy in recent decades have been: (1) That philosophy somehow consists of (some sort of) logic, and (2) that logic is a study of and theory about (some sort of) language. There, of course, follows from these a third assumption: (3) That philosophy is a study of and theory about (some sort of) language--though this implication should not be taken as representing any phase of the historical development of recent philosophizing. Instead of listing these three points as assumptions, it would probably be more correct to regard them as categories or complexes of assumptions; or perhaps, more vaguely still, as 'tendencies' or proclivities of recent philosophical thinking. But precision of these points need not be put in issue here, as this paper does not seek any large-scale resolution of the problem area in question.

The aim here is to examine only one proposition which plays a role in the clearly existent tendencies referred to: Namely, the proposition that we think in or with language. I hope to show, first, that we do not always think in or with language; and then, second, that the very conception of thinking in or with language involves an absurdity. What implications this has for broader philosophical assumptions or tendencies will not be dealt with here, though the implications in question seem to me to be extremely important ones.

That human beings think in language is explicitly stated in such diverse places as ordinary newspapers, the more sophisticated popular magazines and journals, and serious discourse in the humanities and the social sciences, as well as in the technical writings of philosophers. To prove this broad range of consensus would be idle; but, in order to have the philosophical context clearly before us, we may give a few brief quotations. <126> 

     (1) Man, like every living creature, thinks unceasingly, but does not know it: the thinking which becomes conscious of itself is only the smallest part thereof. And, we may say, the worst part:--for this conscious thinking alone is done in words, that is to say, in the symbols for communication, by means of which the origin of consciousness is revealed. (Nietzsche, Joyful Wisdom, sub-sec. # 354)

     (2) Let no one be contemptuous of symbols! A good deal depends upon a practical selection of them. Furthermore, their value is not diminished by the fact that after much practice, we no longer really need to call forth a symbol, we do not need to speak out loud in order to think. The fact remains that we think in words or, when not in words, then in mathematical or other symbols. (Frege, Mind, Vol. 73, p. 156)

     (3) It is misleading then to talk of thinking as of a 'mental activity'. We may say that thinking is essentially the activity of operating with signs. This activity is performed by the hand, when we think by writing; by the mouth and larynx, when we think by speaking; and if we think by imagining signs or pictures, I can give you no agent that thinks. If then you say that in such cases the mind thinks, I would only draw your attention to the fact that you are using a metaphor, that here the mind is an agent in a different sense from that in which the hand can be said to be an agent in writing. (Wittgenstein, Blue Book, pp. 6-7)

     (4) ... The woof and warp of all thought and all research is symbols, and the life of thought and science is the life inherent in symbols; so that it is wrong to say that a good language is important to good thought, merely; for it is of the essence of it. (C. S. Peirce, Collected Papers, II, p. 129)

     (5) Words only matter because words are what we think with. (H. H. Price, Aristotelian Society, Suppl. Vol. XIX, p. 7)

     (6) Theorizing is an activity which most people can and normally do conduct in silence. They articulate in sentences the theories that they construct, but they do not most of the time speak these sentences out loud. They say them to themselves.... Much of our ordinary thinking is conducted in internal monologue or silent soliloquy, usually accompanied by an internal cinematograph-show of visual imagery.... This trick of talking to oneself in silence is acquired neither quickly nor without effort.... (Ryle, Concept of Mind, p. 27. See also pp. 282-83 and 296-97) <127>

     (7)This helps to elucidate the well-known difficulty of thinking without words. Certain kinds of thinking are pieces of intelligent talking to oneself. Consider the way in which I 'thinkingly' wrote the last sentence. I can no more do the 'thinking' part without the talking (or writing) part than a man can do the being graceful part of walking apart from the walking (or some equivalent activity). (J.J.C. Smart, Philosophy and Scientific Realism, p. 89)

These quotations will suffice to establish the context within which philosophers speak of thinking in language (or with language). Many other quotations could be added from the literature.1 It is not assumed here that the persons quoted all occupy the same position with reference to the relationship between thought and language. Yet it would be interesting to see what any of these thinkers, or others who suppose that human beings think in language, could save of their position from the critique which follows.

Uneasiness about the conception of thinking in or with language has been expressed by a number of writers, but only over limited aspects of it.2 Here we shall consider arguments which purport to call the conception into question entirely and in principle. First, consider a reason for rejecting the view that we always think in language. It consists in the fact that thinking often occurs without the production, manipulation, or perception of sense-perceptible signs, without which there is no use of language. Such occurrences often provoke offers of 'A penny for your thoughts.'

Thinking: Whatever we may decide to call them, and however it is that we are conscious of them, there are intentional states of persons, more or less fixed or fleeting, which do not require for their obtaining that what they are about or of be perceived by, or be impinging causally upon, the person involved. In order to think of3 Henry the Eighth, <128> of the first auto one owned, of the Pythagorean theorem, or of the Mississippi River, it is not required that they should disturb my nervous system. Such states (t-states) of persons are often called 'thoughts', especially in contrast with 'perceptions', and being in such a state is one of the things more commonly called 'thinking'. One no more needs to be going through a change of such states in order to be thinking, than he needs to be changing his bodily position in order to be sitting or lying or sleeping. Rarely if ever--as is alleged in the case of mystic contemplation--are these t-states unchanging. Usually they flow, at varying rates, intermingled with person states of many sorts, governed by such transitional structures as inference, goal orientation, objective structures given in perception or in other ways, and elemental association of 'ideas', among others. In what follows, we shall use 'thinking' to cover both the single t-state and the flow of such states, without regard to how intermingled with other person states.

Language: Sense perceptible signs or symbols are an essential constituent of language. It is always false to say that language is present or in use where no signs are present or in use. And, whatever else a sign may be, it is something which is apprehendable via its sensible qualities. That is, it is something which can be either seen, heard, felt, tasted or smelled. Moreover, the use of language requires some level of actual sensuous apprehension of the signs which are in use on the occasion. (Confusion or distortion of this sensuous feedback can render a subject incapable of writing or speaking; and, of course, without perception of the sign-sequences emitted, one cannot understand the person emitting language.)

Now cases can be produced almost at will where thinking occurs without language being present or in use. This, of course, is something which everyone--including the proponent of thinking-in-language--very well knows. It is these cases which, together with the assumption that we always think in language, create what in (7) was called "the well-known difficulty of thinking without words." If, as in (3), "thinking is essentially the activity of operating with signs," then when there are no signs--and when, consequently, the means by which we produce, manipulate, or perceive signs are not functioning--we do have a difficulty. In fact, a difficulty so severe that it amounts to a proof that thinking is not essentially the activity of operating with signs, and that often we think entirely without language. One cannot operate with signs where there are no signs. <129> 

As the above quotations indicate, the most common move made to save 'thinking in language' at this point is the shift to 'silent soliloquy,' as in (6), or to 'pieces of intelligent talking to oneself,' as in (7). These are latter-day shades of John Watson's 'sub-vocal language.' Of course one can talk to oneself or write to onself. But talking and writing to oneself require the production and perception of sensuous signs just as much as talking and writing to another. The realization of this is what drives the thinking-in-language advocate to silent soliloquy or to nonvocal speaking--the written counterpart of which would be invisible writing. That is, they are driven to flat absurdities. A silent soliloquy--that is, silent speaking--is precisely on a par with a silent trumpet solo, for example, or silent thunder. A poet may say:

       Heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard

            Are sweeter; therefore, ye soft pipes, play on;

       Not to the sensual ear, but, more endeared,

            Pipe to the spirit ditties of no tone;...

               (Keats, Ode to a Grecian Urn)

But there are in fact no unhearable melodies, no ears other than the "sensual," no ditties of no tone.

What those who speak of silent discourse have in mind is, no doubt, the fact that interlaced with our thinking of or about things is a great deal of imaging of linguistic entities. (This is especially true of academics or intellectuals in general, because of their great concern with expression of thought. Probably an adequate phenomenology of thinking would exhibit great contrast between them and other classes of persons precisely at the relation between thinking and degree of activity in imaging linguistic entities and events.) But imaging a word is not using a word, any more than imaging a horse is using a horse. Moreover, imaging a word, phrase, or sentence is not producing or perceiving a word, phrase, or sentence any more than imaging a horse is producing or perceiving--or otherwise 'having'--a horse. To image a linguistic sequence is not to have it in a special sort of place--the mind--nor is it to have a special sort of linguistic sequence. To image is to exemplify a certain sort of thinking or intentional state, and a sort which does have interesting relationships with other kinds of thinking. But there is no reason at all to suppose that all kinds of thinking necessarily involve or are accompanied by this kind of thinking (imaging) directed upon language segments. And if there were, it still would not follow that all thinking requires language, since this kind of thinking about language segments is not itself language at all. Nor does it require any <130> language present in order for it to come to pass, since intentional inexistence applies to mental events when language segments are the objects, as well as when sticks and stones and animals are.

Having considered a reason for rejecting the proposition that human beings always think in language, let us now consider whether they ever do. In fact, the difficulty is not, as Smart (above) and others have thought, in seeing how one can think without language, but in seeing how one would think with it. Thinking with or in language must consist in doing something with symbols, and so necessarily involves doing something to them--e.g., producing, altering, or perceiving them. If we would do something with the knife (e.g., cut the bread), we must do something to the knife, (e.g., clasp it in our hands). But, as we have seen, thinking occurs where nothing at all is being done to or with signs, there not being any signs in these cases. The power or act of having or changing t-states--that is, the power or act of thinking--is, then, not a power or act of having or altering linguistic symbols. (It is not, in fact, a power of doing anything with or in anything at all. The profound difference in kinds of powers and acts involved here is what Wittgenstein calls attention to in the last sentence of (3) above.) Thought is, of course, practical, in that it exercises an influence upon, or makes some difference in, the world of sense particulars. But it alone is not capable of acting with the sorts of particulars used in linguistic behavior as its immediate instruments. It is just this incapacity which makes it impossible for the advocates of thinking-in-language to give any account of the mechanisms or the 'how' by which the words in which we, allegedly, think are produced, manipulated, and gotten rid of--though they must be produced (or stored and hauled out), manipulated, and, in some sense, gotten rid of, if we are to think with and in them as our tools or instruments.

Merely to ask the question of how, in detail, this is done in the course of thinking reveals, I believe, the absurdity of 'thinking in language'. Mere thinking can do nothing to signs which might be used in a language, and hence it can do nothing with such signs, or in the act of modifying the conditions of such signs. It is absurd to suppose that one can do x with y without in some way bringing about a change in the condition, state, relations, or properties of y. It is this and only this that I put by saying that it is absurd to suppose that one can do something with y while doing nothing to y.

If it is replied that, of course, the mind or thought does not do these things, but that when we write, speak, hear, see, and otherwise relate to actual words in the actual employment of language, we then are thinking, with bodily parts managing the symbols involved, then it <131> must be pointed out that, while we may indeed also be thinking in such cases, we are not simply thinking. The total event here, to which language certainly is essential, is not thinking. Correct use of language can even occur, as has been pointed out by Wittgenstein, without the occurrence of any peculiarly relevant t-states. On the other hand, thinking does occur without the use of hands, mouth, ears, eyes, fingers in any appropriately relevant manner. Hence, what can only occur by the use of these is not the same as thinking, though it may somehow involve or influence thinking.

Smart remarks in (7) that, when he thinkingly wrote the sentence, "Certain kinds of thinking are pieces of intelligent talking to oneself," he could "no more do the 'thinking' part without the talking (or writing) part than a man can do the being graceful part of walking apart from the walking." This may be true of thinkingly writing the sentence (whatever that means). But it does not follow that one cannot think that certain kinds of thinking are pieces of intelligent talking to oneself without the use of language, though Smart clearly thinks that it does. Of course one cannot thinkingly write without writing. But that is nothing to the point of whether or not we can and do think with or without words. Also, the comparison to graceful walking is not apt. We do, as above shown, sometimes think without words or symbols, while no cases of grace without behavior are known.

Now it is very certainly true that some processes clearly involving thinking as described above depend for their occurrence upon linguistic behavior and the sensible signs which it involves, for example, the processes of learning algebra or the history of the Basques, or learning how to counsel emotionally upset persons. But it is to be noted that these are not themselves processes of thinking, but rather are extremely complex processes involving all kinds of events and entities other than language and other than thinking--e.g., feelings, perceptions, buildings, other persons, days and nights, books, and so on. None of these processes is a process of thinking; and for that reason alone it is invalid to infer from them that thinking is linguistic behavior, or that one thinks with language. What is essential to things or events of a certain sort must be shown essential to them taken by themselves, not in combination with many other things. With reference to the involved processes in question, it might be more appropriate (though it would still be wrong) to say--as some have said in recent years--that we live in or with language. Nevertheless, it is certain that some kind of dependence relation--probably similar to feedback mechanisms--exists between linguistic processes and their sensuous signs, on the one hand, and certain sequences of t-states on the other. What, exactly, this relation <132> of dependence is continues to be veiled by, among other things, a priori assumptions about what thinking and language must be and do. One such assumption is that which holds thinking essentially to be an operation with signs or symbols, or doing something with--or in--linguistic processes or entities.

The view that we (necessarily) think without language is, today, regarded as so outlandish as not to merit serious consideration. But this is not due to a lack of arguments to support it. My object here has been to focus upon certain arguments purporting to show the absurdity of thinking in language. The main points in these arguments are: Thinking does occur without any accompanying language whatsoever, and thus shows itself not to be a power or act of managing linguistic signs, once it is clear what such a sign is. Thinking, as distinct from behavioral processes involving it, can do nothing to signs or symbols, and hence can do nothing with them.


NOTES

  1. See for example, Ramsey's Foundations of Mathematics, p. 138, and Kneale's remarks in Feigl and Sellars, Readings in Philosophical Analysis, p. 42. Return to text.
  2. See S. Morris Engel, "Thought and Language," Dialogue, Vol. 3, 1964, 160-170; Jerome Shaffer, "Recent Work on the Mind-Body Problem," American Philosophical Quarterly, Vol. II, 1965, esp. p. 83; R. Kirk, "Rationality Without Language," Mind, 1967, pp. 369-368; G. Ryle, "A Puzzling Element in the Notion of Thinking," in Studies in the Philosophy of Thought and Action, P. F. Strawson, ed., (Oxford: 1968), pp. 7-23. Interesting remarks on the issues here are also found in Bruce Aune's Knowledge, Mind and Nature, chap. VIII and H. H. Price's Thinking and Experience, Chap. X.  See also Wm. James, "Thought Before Language; A Deaf Mute's Recollections," Mind, Vol. I, 1892; and see Wittgenstein's comments on this in Philosophical Investigations, No. 342. Return to text.
  3. I use only think here, for simplicity; but think that and other structures of such intentional states (and sequences thereof) might also be mentioned. Specifically, I would also wish to hold that instances of thinking that, in the sense of inferring or puzzling something out, occur in the absence of appropriate linguistic entities or activities. Return to text.


TOPICS: Philosophy
KEYWORDS: consciousness; dallaswillard; epistemology; faithandphilosophy; godsgravesglyphs; intelligence; intention; intentionality; language; linguistics; metaphysics; mind; ontology; psychology; semantics; semasiology; semiotics; sense; thinking; thought; willard
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To: Paul C. Jesup
Huh?
381 posted on 05/25/2003 11:33:57 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: betty boop
Wouldn't you say, then, that they are real, yet not in the manner of physical objects?

They are very real in the same sense that all information is. Symbols (in the information theoretic abstract) describe everything describable, and the more thoughtful people realize that physical objects are actually a complex collections of symbols at their essence. Of course, one could then argue that energy is the ultimate substrate in which symbols manifest, a pervasive field of unknown origin that we only see from differentials in the energy field (as manifested symbols).

382 posted on 05/25/2003 11:34:34 AM PDT by tortoise
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To: unspun
I don't like being spammed.
383 posted on 05/25/2003 11:35:25 AM PDT by Paul C. Jesup
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To: unspun
What you are describing is not so much thinking as it is thinking about thinking. Which quickly turns into thinking about thinking about thinking. It's the mythical bird that flies in ever decreasing circles at ever increasing speeds until it flies up its own rectum.
"Your experiments are going too far, man! There are forces in nature that are not to be tampered with!!"

-- Some goofy Doctor lecturing Dr. Jeykill in the Spencer Tracy version of Jeykill/Hyde. (Paraphrase)


384 posted on 05/25/2003 11:36:38 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: Mike Darancette
This crap will be a science when you can check what I've been doing with my mind.

Variations between one person and another do not mean they do not hold identifiers in common. I am a human being, for example, aren't you? Don't we both have humanity?

BTW, it doesn't have to be a science, to be truthful.

385 posted on 05/25/2003 11:36:59 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: betty boop; Roscoe; unspun; D-fendr; Alamo-Girl
Roscoe, the mind has no alternative but to think in symbols. You can't stuff real objects in there. And yes, symbols are "reductionist" because they represent things to the mind that never are the things themselves. Reality is always richer than the abstractions we draw from it. I don't see any irony or hypocrisy here, it's just the way things are. If you doubt this, try thinking without using symbols and see how far you get.

No, no, no. This is all wrong!

First, it confuses words (symbols) for concepts. Words only represent concepts.

It is only by concepts that we know anything of the richness of reality. The mistake you have made and that most people make when they think language is limiting, is a misunderstaning of what concepts are.

You said: Reality is always richer than the abstractions we draw from it. The process of forming concepts, however, is both abstraction and integration, which those who do not have a sound epistemology almost always misunderstand. A concept is not a little abstraction from some more solid and rich concrete. The concept of "bird" for example, is not a mental line drawing of a bird.

A word is a symbol which represents a concept. A definition serves to indicate what concept a symbol represents. Neither of these, however, is the meaning of a concept.

Except for "particular" concepts (Joe, this dog, my wife), the meaning of a concept is every possible, past, present or future, particular or unit subsumed by that concept. For example, bird means, any bird of any kind that has ever been or ever will be. The process by which the concept is formed is both abstraction and integration. It first integrates all birds into a single concept by means of those qualities which are common to all birds, without which they would not be birds. These are the essential qualities which every unit of the concept will have. It abstracts all those qualities of birds which differentiate them in the real world, like size, shape, color, habit, habitat, diet, but includes them as possible qualities of any unit of the concept. [The ancients called the possible qualities "accidentals."] The meaning of a concept is every possible unit, with all the actual qualities and characteristics (both essential and accidental) of each actual unit.

Without concepts, we would be able to see birds, just as any animal does, but we would never be able to identify that the robin we just saw and the hawk overhead are both birds. We would never know that the birds we saw yesterday are the same kind we are seeing today. We would never be able to study how birds fly, and learn from that how to fly ourselves.

The real world without concepts is very rich. I'm sure my kitty's world is interesting to her. Without concepts, that is the only world we could know, however. To understand the connection between things, to know there are relationships between the stars in the heavens and the objects of the everyday world below, to know that what I do today has consequences tomorrow is only possible by means of concepts, and concepts are only possible if we have some concrete way of grasping, remembering, and referring to them, and that way is symbols, words, or language.

The only way we know there is a rich reality is by means of concepts, and the only way we have for representing concepts is words. Without words, there would be no language, no poetry, no literature, no science, no theater, nothing which makes human life rich. Without words, the mind would be concrete bound, able only to apprehend one's immediate experience, never able to make a connection to anything else. Without words, there would be no meaning.

To deplore words is to deplore the only means to a rich and meaningful existence.

Hank

386 posted on 05/25/2003 11:37:07 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: Roscoe
The view that symbols exist apart from individual consciousness just waiting to be picked up and jammed into your head is reductionist tripe.

The symbols exist in our minds, but there is no absolute objective context of perception. The symbols exist independently, but a mind like ours can never perceive them independently, only in a rich subjective context.

387 posted on 05/25/2003 11:37:48 AM PDT by tortoise
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To: Paul C. Jesup
1. You should find answers of your questions to me in that post.
2. You are participating in a discussion, by your posts.
3. Spam is pretty good on rye toast, with celery.
388 posted on 05/25/2003 11:39:38 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: Hank Kerchief; unspun; Alamo-Girl; cornelis; D-fendr
It is very sad that in this age people can believe their deepest form of thinking is dreams and nightmares. You did choose the right word, "deep," however. The highest kind of thinking, is that clear, lucid, and cognitive reason that ruthlessly demands truth which can only be understood by means of explicit concepts which are comprehended by means of words, that is, language.... To promote a non-linguistic form of consciousness is to promote a kind of insanity. A non-linguistic consciousness is appropriate to the irrational animals, in human beings, it is sickness.

Isn't it correct to say that dreams and nightmares are phenomena of the unconscious mind? And therefore cannot be considered "thoughts" at all, which are phenomena of (self-reflective) consciousness? The "language" of dreams seems to be images -- to which, upon waking, people often try to ascribe symbolic content (if they remember their dream at all).

This bears repeating, Hank: "The highest kind of thinking, is that clear, lucid, and cognitive reason that ruthlessly demands truth which can only be understood by means of explicit concepts which are comprehended by means of words, that is, language...."

Forgive me, Hank, if I say I sense a doctrinaire spirit at work here. I know how you hate to be criticised as a "doctrinal thinker." But in a very important sense, these observations are "non-foundational" in the sense of the Newman post I pinged to you.

Both concepts and language (words) are abstractions from reality, not reality itself. The human mind needs them to think, but we mustn't use that as an excuse to let them eclipse the reality from which they are drawn. To do that, to identify the abstraction with the reality it signifies, is to "hole up in a doctrine." Incidentally, it is the type of mental maneuver that makes "dialectical science" possible, as its "inventor," Hegel, clearly recognized.

389 posted on 05/25/2003 11:41:23 AM PDT by betty boop
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To: VadeRetro
You don't have to ride The Vortex, but if you get sick, I'm sorry. Please try to vomit in your shirt or something; you know what centrifugal force can do. ;-`
390 posted on 05/25/2003 11:42:13 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: tortoise
The symbols exist independently,

I don't share that faith.

but a mind like ours can never perceive them independently, only in a rich subjective context.

Without rich subjective context, do they have meaning?

391 posted on 05/25/2003 11:42:47 AM PDT by Roscoe
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To: donh
What is it, exactly, the distinquishes the brain from the mind?

Consciousness.

Hank

392 posted on 05/25/2003 11:44:08 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: unspun
there are so many contradictions

Results from imperfections in understanding: too narrow a definition, too wide a definition, lack of perception of sufficient detail, forgetting what time it is, incorrect deduction, incorrect implication, invalid premise, exogenous factors. Get more data, refine the techniques, work up a better scientific model.

393 posted on 05/25/2003 11:49:23 AM PDT by RightWhale (Theorems link concepts; proofs establish links)
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To: Roscoe
The view that symbols exist apart from individual consciousness just waiting to be picked up and jammed into your head is reductionist tripe.

But I never said that "symbols exist apart from individual consciousness just waiting to be picked up and jammed into your head," Roscoe.

394 posted on 05/25/2003 11:49:36 AM PDT by betty boop
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To: betty boop
You can't stuff real objects in there.

Or "symbols".

395 posted on 05/25/2003 11:51:10 AM PDT by Roscoe
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To: Hank Kerchief
No, no, no. This is all wrong!... First, it confuses words (symbols) for concepts. Words only represent concepts.

And what do concepts represent? Or are they "final," "non-foundational?"

396 posted on 05/25/2003 11:52:34 AM PDT by betty boop
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To: RightWhale
Yes, you and your mentor fC have some things in common... ;-)

But ultimate truth is ultimately subjective as well as well as ultimately objective. Don't forget to subject yourself to the truth or you will never "under stand."
397 posted on 05/25/2003 11:55:29 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: Roscoe; Betteboop; yall
The view that symbols exist apart from individual consciousness just waiting to be picked up and jammed into your head is reductionist tripe.
374 -roscoe-

Lesse. -- If we disregard the true tripe in that sentence about:
-- "just waiting to be picked up and jammed into your head", -- we get:

'The view that symbols exist apart from individual consciousness is reductionist tripe.'


-- Which at least makes some sense grammatically.
- It still has no logic of course, as symbols do exist independant of any one individual. As was noted we all agree that certain symbols have given meanings.

Reductionist 'tripe' of course, is truly in the individuals tripe ridden mind.
398 posted on 05/25/2003 11:57:19 AM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be a 'decent human being', but me flesh is weak.,)
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To: Roscoe
I don't share that faith.

Symbols are nothing more than referents to patterns. I didn't think this definition was controversial at all, and the definition implies almost nothing, being strictly a definition. This is a common rigorous definition of "symbol".

Without rich subjective context, do they have meaning?

Of course not. A pattern is a pattern is a pattern. Without the subjective context, symbolic referents to "cat" and "dog" are essentially equivalent (technical caveat: assuming the patterns have the same Kolmogorov complexity). The corollary though, is that every interpretative context of a symbol will generally be unique. The contextual framework you put the symbol "cat" in is different from mine (since we don't share minds that I know of), so the contextual perception of that symbol will be different as well. The "cat" pattern exists objectively but we never perceive it that way; we only see it through the lens of how it interacts with the massive nest of interwoven patterns in our brains.

399 posted on 05/25/2003 11:59:10 AM PDT by tortoise
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To: tpaine; Roscoe; betty boop
Let's differentiate between symbols such as "the letter - A" and the symbols that our minds hold -- even when our minds are dealing with the concept and any of the considerations involving "A."
400 posted on 05/25/2003 12:01:05 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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