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The Absurdity of 'Thinking in Language'
the author's site ^ | 1972 | Dallas Willard

Posted on 05/23/2003 3:59:51 PM PDT by unspun

The Absurdity of 'Thinking in Language'
This paper has been read to the University of Southern California philosophy group and the Boston 1972 meeting of the American Philosophical Association, as well as to the Houston meeting of the Southwestern Philosophical Society. Appeared in The Southwestern Journal of Philosophy, IV(1973), pp. 125-132. Numbers in "<>" refer to this journal.

Among the principal assumptions of major portions of philosophy in recent decades have been: (1) That philosophy somehow consists of (some sort of) logic, and (2) that logic is a study of and theory about (some sort of) language. There, of course, follows from these a third assumption: (3) That philosophy is a study of and theory about (some sort of) language--though this implication should not be taken as representing any phase of the historical development of recent philosophizing. Instead of listing these three points as assumptions, it would probably be more correct to regard them as categories or complexes of assumptions; or perhaps, more vaguely still, as 'tendencies' or proclivities of recent philosophical thinking. But precision of these points need not be put in issue here, as this paper does not seek any large-scale resolution of the problem area in question.

The aim here is to examine only one proposition which plays a role in the clearly existent tendencies referred to: Namely, the proposition that we think in or with language. I hope to show, first, that we do not always think in or with language; and then, second, that the very conception of thinking in or with language involves an absurdity. What implications this has for broader philosophical assumptions or tendencies will not be dealt with here, though the implications in question seem to me to be extremely important ones.

That human beings think in language is explicitly stated in such diverse places as ordinary newspapers, the more sophisticated popular magazines and journals, and serious discourse in the humanities and the social sciences, as well as in the technical writings of philosophers. To prove this broad range of consensus would be idle; but, in order to have the philosophical context clearly before us, we may give a few brief quotations. <126> 

     (1) Man, like every living creature, thinks unceasingly, but does not know it: the thinking which becomes conscious of itself is only the smallest part thereof. And, we may say, the worst part:--for this conscious thinking alone is done in words, that is to say, in the symbols for communication, by means of which the origin of consciousness is revealed. (Nietzsche, Joyful Wisdom, sub-sec. # 354)

     (2) Let no one be contemptuous of symbols! A good deal depends upon a practical selection of them. Furthermore, their value is not diminished by the fact that after much practice, we no longer really need to call forth a symbol, we do not need to speak out loud in order to think. The fact remains that we think in words or, when not in words, then in mathematical or other symbols. (Frege, Mind, Vol. 73, p. 156)

     (3) It is misleading then to talk of thinking as of a 'mental activity'. We may say that thinking is essentially the activity of operating with signs. This activity is performed by the hand, when we think by writing; by the mouth and larynx, when we think by speaking; and if we think by imagining signs or pictures, I can give you no agent that thinks. If then you say that in such cases the mind thinks, I would only draw your attention to the fact that you are using a metaphor, that here the mind is an agent in a different sense from that in which the hand can be said to be an agent in writing. (Wittgenstein, Blue Book, pp. 6-7)

     (4) ... The woof and warp of all thought and all research is symbols, and the life of thought and science is the life inherent in symbols; so that it is wrong to say that a good language is important to good thought, merely; for it is of the essence of it. (C. S. Peirce, Collected Papers, II, p. 129)

     (5) Words only matter because words are what we think with. (H. H. Price, Aristotelian Society, Suppl. Vol. XIX, p. 7)

     (6) Theorizing is an activity which most people can and normally do conduct in silence. They articulate in sentences the theories that they construct, but they do not most of the time speak these sentences out loud. They say them to themselves.... Much of our ordinary thinking is conducted in internal monologue or silent soliloquy, usually accompanied by an internal cinematograph-show of visual imagery.... This trick of talking to oneself in silence is acquired neither quickly nor without effort.... (Ryle, Concept of Mind, p. 27. See also pp. 282-83 and 296-97) <127>

     (7)This helps to elucidate the well-known difficulty of thinking without words. Certain kinds of thinking are pieces of intelligent talking to oneself. Consider the way in which I 'thinkingly' wrote the last sentence. I can no more do the 'thinking' part without the talking (or writing) part than a man can do the being graceful part of walking apart from the walking (or some equivalent activity). (J.J.C. Smart, Philosophy and Scientific Realism, p. 89)

These quotations will suffice to establish the context within which philosophers speak of thinking in language (or with language). Many other quotations could be added from the literature.1 It is not assumed here that the persons quoted all occupy the same position with reference to the relationship between thought and language. Yet it would be interesting to see what any of these thinkers, or others who suppose that human beings think in language, could save of their position from the critique which follows.

Uneasiness about the conception of thinking in or with language has been expressed by a number of writers, but only over limited aspects of it.2 Here we shall consider arguments which purport to call the conception into question entirely and in principle. First, consider a reason for rejecting the view that we always think in language. It consists in the fact that thinking often occurs without the production, manipulation, or perception of sense-perceptible signs, without which there is no use of language. Such occurrences often provoke offers of 'A penny for your thoughts.'

Thinking: Whatever we may decide to call them, and however it is that we are conscious of them, there are intentional states of persons, more or less fixed or fleeting, which do not require for their obtaining that what they are about or of be perceived by, or be impinging causally upon, the person involved. In order to think of3 Henry the Eighth, <128> of the first auto one owned, of the Pythagorean theorem, or of the Mississippi River, it is not required that they should disturb my nervous system. Such states (t-states) of persons are often called 'thoughts', especially in contrast with 'perceptions', and being in such a state is one of the things more commonly called 'thinking'. One no more needs to be going through a change of such states in order to be thinking, than he needs to be changing his bodily position in order to be sitting or lying or sleeping. Rarely if ever--as is alleged in the case of mystic contemplation--are these t-states unchanging. Usually they flow, at varying rates, intermingled with person states of many sorts, governed by such transitional structures as inference, goal orientation, objective structures given in perception or in other ways, and elemental association of 'ideas', among others. In what follows, we shall use 'thinking' to cover both the single t-state and the flow of such states, without regard to how intermingled with other person states.

Language: Sense perceptible signs or symbols are an essential constituent of language. It is always false to say that language is present or in use where no signs are present or in use. And, whatever else a sign may be, it is something which is apprehendable via its sensible qualities. That is, it is something which can be either seen, heard, felt, tasted or smelled. Moreover, the use of language requires some level of actual sensuous apprehension of the signs which are in use on the occasion. (Confusion or distortion of this sensuous feedback can render a subject incapable of writing or speaking; and, of course, without perception of the sign-sequences emitted, one cannot understand the person emitting language.)

Now cases can be produced almost at will where thinking occurs without language being present or in use. This, of course, is something which everyone--including the proponent of thinking-in-language--very well knows. It is these cases which, together with the assumption that we always think in language, create what in (7) was called "the well-known difficulty of thinking without words." If, as in (3), "thinking is essentially the activity of operating with signs," then when there are no signs--and when, consequently, the means by which we produce, manipulate, or perceive signs are not functioning--we do have a difficulty. In fact, a difficulty so severe that it amounts to a proof that thinking is not essentially the activity of operating with signs, and that often we think entirely without language. One cannot operate with signs where there are no signs. <129> 

As the above quotations indicate, the most common move made to save 'thinking in language' at this point is the shift to 'silent soliloquy,' as in (6), or to 'pieces of intelligent talking to oneself,' as in (7). These are latter-day shades of John Watson's 'sub-vocal language.' Of course one can talk to oneself or write to onself. But talking and writing to oneself require the production and perception of sensuous signs just as much as talking and writing to another. The realization of this is what drives the thinking-in-language advocate to silent soliloquy or to nonvocal speaking--the written counterpart of which would be invisible writing. That is, they are driven to flat absurdities. A silent soliloquy--that is, silent speaking--is precisely on a par with a silent trumpet solo, for example, or silent thunder. A poet may say:

       Heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard

            Are sweeter; therefore, ye soft pipes, play on;

       Not to the sensual ear, but, more endeared,

            Pipe to the spirit ditties of no tone;...

               (Keats, Ode to a Grecian Urn)

But there are in fact no unhearable melodies, no ears other than the "sensual," no ditties of no tone.

What those who speak of silent discourse have in mind is, no doubt, the fact that interlaced with our thinking of or about things is a great deal of imaging of linguistic entities. (This is especially true of academics or intellectuals in general, because of their great concern with expression of thought. Probably an adequate phenomenology of thinking would exhibit great contrast between them and other classes of persons precisely at the relation between thinking and degree of activity in imaging linguistic entities and events.) But imaging a word is not using a word, any more than imaging a horse is using a horse. Moreover, imaging a word, phrase, or sentence is not producing or perceiving a word, phrase, or sentence any more than imaging a horse is producing or perceiving--or otherwise 'having'--a horse. To image a linguistic sequence is not to have it in a special sort of place--the mind--nor is it to have a special sort of linguistic sequence. To image is to exemplify a certain sort of thinking or intentional state, and a sort which does have interesting relationships with other kinds of thinking. But there is no reason at all to suppose that all kinds of thinking necessarily involve or are accompanied by this kind of thinking (imaging) directed upon language segments. And if there were, it still would not follow that all thinking requires language, since this kind of thinking about language segments is not itself language at all. Nor does it require any <130> language present in order for it to come to pass, since intentional inexistence applies to mental events when language segments are the objects, as well as when sticks and stones and animals are.

Having considered a reason for rejecting the proposition that human beings always think in language, let us now consider whether they ever do. In fact, the difficulty is not, as Smart (above) and others have thought, in seeing how one can think without language, but in seeing how one would think with it. Thinking with or in language must consist in doing something with symbols, and so necessarily involves doing something to them--e.g., producing, altering, or perceiving them. If we would do something with the knife (e.g., cut the bread), we must do something to the knife, (e.g., clasp it in our hands). But, as we have seen, thinking occurs where nothing at all is being done to or with signs, there not being any signs in these cases. The power or act of having or changing t-states--that is, the power or act of thinking--is, then, not a power or act of having or altering linguistic symbols. (It is not, in fact, a power of doing anything with or in anything at all. The profound difference in kinds of powers and acts involved here is what Wittgenstein calls attention to in the last sentence of (3) above.) Thought is, of course, practical, in that it exercises an influence upon, or makes some difference in, the world of sense particulars. But it alone is not capable of acting with the sorts of particulars used in linguistic behavior as its immediate instruments. It is just this incapacity which makes it impossible for the advocates of thinking-in-language to give any account of the mechanisms or the 'how' by which the words in which we, allegedly, think are produced, manipulated, and gotten rid of--though they must be produced (or stored and hauled out), manipulated, and, in some sense, gotten rid of, if we are to think with and in them as our tools or instruments.

Merely to ask the question of how, in detail, this is done in the course of thinking reveals, I believe, the absurdity of 'thinking in language'. Mere thinking can do nothing to signs which might be used in a language, and hence it can do nothing with such signs, or in the act of modifying the conditions of such signs. It is absurd to suppose that one can do x with y without in some way bringing about a change in the condition, state, relations, or properties of y. It is this and only this that I put by saying that it is absurd to suppose that one can do something with y while doing nothing to y.

If it is replied that, of course, the mind or thought does not do these things, but that when we write, speak, hear, see, and otherwise relate to actual words in the actual employment of language, we then are thinking, with bodily parts managing the symbols involved, then it <131> must be pointed out that, while we may indeed also be thinking in such cases, we are not simply thinking. The total event here, to which language certainly is essential, is not thinking. Correct use of language can even occur, as has been pointed out by Wittgenstein, without the occurrence of any peculiarly relevant t-states. On the other hand, thinking does occur without the use of hands, mouth, ears, eyes, fingers in any appropriately relevant manner. Hence, what can only occur by the use of these is not the same as thinking, though it may somehow involve or influence thinking.

Smart remarks in (7) that, when he thinkingly wrote the sentence, "Certain kinds of thinking are pieces of intelligent talking to oneself," he could "no more do the 'thinking' part without the talking (or writing) part than a man can do the being graceful part of walking apart from the walking." This may be true of thinkingly writing the sentence (whatever that means). But it does not follow that one cannot think that certain kinds of thinking are pieces of intelligent talking to oneself without the use of language, though Smart clearly thinks that it does. Of course one cannot thinkingly write without writing. But that is nothing to the point of whether or not we can and do think with or without words. Also, the comparison to graceful walking is not apt. We do, as above shown, sometimes think without words or symbols, while no cases of grace without behavior are known.

Now it is very certainly true that some processes clearly involving thinking as described above depend for their occurrence upon linguistic behavior and the sensible signs which it involves, for example, the processes of learning algebra or the history of the Basques, or learning how to counsel emotionally upset persons. But it is to be noted that these are not themselves processes of thinking, but rather are extremely complex processes involving all kinds of events and entities other than language and other than thinking--e.g., feelings, perceptions, buildings, other persons, days and nights, books, and so on. None of these processes is a process of thinking; and for that reason alone it is invalid to infer from them that thinking is linguistic behavior, or that one thinks with language. What is essential to things or events of a certain sort must be shown essential to them taken by themselves, not in combination with many other things. With reference to the involved processes in question, it might be more appropriate (though it would still be wrong) to say--as some have said in recent years--that we live in or with language. Nevertheless, it is certain that some kind of dependence relation--probably similar to feedback mechanisms--exists between linguistic processes and their sensuous signs, on the one hand, and certain sequences of t-states on the other. What, exactly, this relation <132> of dependence is continues to be veiled by, among other things, a priori assumptions about what thinking and language must be and do. One such assumption is that which holds thinking essentially to be an operation with signs or symbols, or doing something with--or in--linguistic processes or entities.

The view that we (necessarily) think without language is, today, regarded as so outlandish as not to merit serious consideration. But this is not due to a lack of arguments to support it. My object here has been to focus upon certain arguments purporting to show the absurdity of thinking in language. The main points in these arguments are: Thinking does occur without any accompanying language whatsoever, and thus shows itself not to be a power or act of managing linguistic signs, once it is clear what such a sign is. Thinking, as distinct from behavioral processes involving it, can do nothing to signs or symbols, and hence can do nothing with them.


NOTES

  1. See for example, Ramsey's Foundations of Mathematics, p. 138, and Kneale's remarks in Feigl and Sellars, Readings in Philosophical Analysis, p. 42. Return to text.
  2. See S. Morris Engel, "Thought and Language," Dialogue, Vol. 3, 1964, 160-170; Jerome Shaffer, "Recent Work on the Mind-Body Problem," American Philosophical Quarterly, Vol. II, 1965, esp. p. 83; R. Kirk, "Rationality Without Language," Mind, 1967, pp. 369-368; G. Ryle, "A Puzzling Element in the Notion of Thinking," in Studies in the Philosophy of Thought and Action, P. F. Strawson, ed., (Oxford: 1968), pp. 7-23. Interesting remarks on the issues here are also found in Bruce Aune's Knowledge, Mind and Nature, chap. VIII and H. H. Price's Thinking and Experience, Chap. X.  See also Wm. James, "Thought Before Language; A Deaf Mute's Recollections," Mind, Vol. I, 1892; and see Wittgenstein's comments on this in Philosophical Investigations, No. 342. Return to text.
  3. I use only think here, for simplicity; but think that and other structures of such intentional states (and sequences thereof) might also be mentioned. Specifically, I would also wish to hold that instances of thinking that, in the sense of inferring or puzzling something out, occur in the absence of appropriate linguistic entities or activities. Return to text.


TOPICS: Philosophy
KEYWORDS: consciousness; dallaswillard; epistemology; faithandphilosophy; godsgravesglyphs; intelligence; intention; intentionality; language; linguistics; metaphysics; mind; ontology; psychology; semantics; semasiology; semiotics; sense; thinking; thought; willard
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To: Alamo-Girl
I realize that you do not consider qualia to be particularly meaningful, important or mysterious because your endeavor is in the front-end and qualia ought to accrue along the way.

I was not trying to dismiss it out of hand, Alamo-Girl. I was mostly saying that if you want to understand qualia in the context of all the rest of the stuff, you have to understand the fundamental principles or you won't fully appreciate the relationship between qualia and intelligence. I concern myself with qualia because it is important as a high-order artifact, but my perception of it is more jaded and clinical than someone still wrestling with the "meaning" of the idea.

I think qualia is probably THE most seductive idea in the greater field of AI, and it is almost always the bit that people latch on to when exposed to the field.

1,201 posted on 06/06/2003 10:58:58 AM PDT by tortoise
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To: tortoise
Stirring the pot some more, but with references that may be of interest to some here:

http://psyche.cs.monash.edu.au/v9/psyche-9-13-bridgeman.html

1,202 posted on 06/06/2003 11:43:14 AM PDT by tortoise
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To: tortoise
I think that gets us right back to the intentions of the good Doctor Willard.
1,203 posted on 06/06/2003 11:56:57 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: tortoise
I would agree that they have much less capacity than humans in this regard, but it is a gradient, not a boolean proposition.

I'm not disputing the gradient, just the slope. I think there is probably not a huge qualitative difference between consciousness in the more intelligent mammals and in a human with a normal brain who never learned language.

1,204 posted on 06/06/2003 12:04:31 PM PDT by js1138
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To: tortoise; Alamo-Girl
Clearly tortoise, this analysis begs the question and the research to which it alludes, while indicating relationships of behavior to brain function, does not obviate the presence of will, nor spirit. It is no more evidence of this, than to say, "I've just crushed your brain and you aren't functioning anymore, so your brain and body is all there is to you." It does no more to the "separation of soul and spirit, sinew and flesh" than to say the obvious: "Your brain is the organ which is involved in the expression of your being."

You can detach elements of a machine, in order to determine how that machine functions, but unless you find a computer's operating system, you don't find a computer. Then, even if you found the brain's "core protocol," you would find just that, not something you can point at, to say, "A-HA! This is all there is to you!" John 3 applies. Think breath and wind, if it helps. ;-)
1,205 posted on 06/06/2003 12:13:17 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: tortoise; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; Kudsman; logos; Phaedrus; Anybody; ANN; ee; spirit
BTW, this brain research does instruct us some about dissociative states. It may indicate how we can acutally, unwittingly drive a ouija board, etc., but it doesn't really tell us that another kind of being cannot do the same through us, including through the very same synapses.*

And certainly, it doesn't explain things like sudden decreased temperature in the room, a body being thrown against a wall, lights being turned on without a body there, etc. (Nor how these kinds of manifestations are ended.)

(BTW, neither does it explain my experience in prayer as I've related elsewhere, of inwardly sensing a spiritual sword in my hand, while it was visually though not ocularly sensed by another.)

_____________________________________________
* and of course I could go down the rabbit hole of "what is a synapse really?" etc. and find myself in QM land again.
1,206 posted on 06/06/2003 12:27:14 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: unspun; Alamo-Girl
I was not necessarily endorsing the link, just throwing it out there as fodder. It was in my inbox today, and I was in a sharing mood. :-)

and of course I could go down the rabbit hole of "what is a synapse really?" etc. and find myself in QM land again.

I disagree quite strongly. Synapses do not have a meaningful QM existence in their function nor is their any evidence of this. Synapses map remarkably well to a structure that falls out of algorithmic information theory, both in form and function. I would invoke Occam's Razor here and dismiss a QM claim for synapses out of hand.

Actually, this relates to an interesting and longstanding flaw in a de facto theoretical assumption in AI research that has led to a lot of conceptual wild goose chases. There has long been an assumption that the brain uses neurons as its core structure for storing information, and a LOT of AI research and theory makes this assumption even today. An important conclusion that has come out of algorithmic information theoretic models is that all the information is primarily stored in the synapses, and that neurons are merely placeholders or tags of sorts that make it easy to access that synaptic information, being more a biological necessity than a computational one. The difference is really just a subtle change in perspective of the system, but it is important. A lot of "difficult" problems resolve themselves if you make the synaptic structures the central construct rather than the neurons.

1,207 posted on 06/06/2003 12:57:07 PM PDT by tortoise
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To: unspun
You can detach elements of a machine, in order to determine how that machine functions, but unless you find a computer's operating system, you don't find a computer. Then, even if you found the brain's "core protocol," you would find just that, not something you can point at, to say, "A-HA! This is all there is to you!"

I'm willing to bet that over the next hundred years or so this will be a losing bet. All these arguments have been applied to "lesser" life functions, and biological science has whittled away at them.

the mind will still be marvelous, even after it's material embodiment is understood. It's far more productive to wonder how "mere" matter accomplishes all these things, than to deny that it does.

1,208 posted on 06/06/2003 1:20:53 PM PDT by js1138
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To: tortoise; js1138
Yeah, I didn't assume you claimed a materialistic necessity as js seems desirous to religiously suppose. (Is this the will of your conscious, js, or your subconscious, or just the way your brain connections wink? ;-) js, you realize you are attempting to swallow mind which isn't non-mind, self formulated out of uniformity -- and programming... without a programmer too? Then how would it be that God so offends you to imagine such a paradox in this world, instead of imagining God effectuating from outside of this world's limitations?

Synapses do seem to be where most of the action is, by my very, very limited understanding. As for QM, I wasn't referring to it as of direct consequence, just referring to the constructionlessness at the base of all that is constructed.

(Why anyone would presume that this energy would have a bias for "willing" anything is way, way beyond me, to say nothing about making such extravagent finery from chaos. Wow.)

Looks like we've got about 3 or 4 threads running all together on this stuff.
1,209 posted on 06/06/2003 2:09:17 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: tortoise; unspun; betty boop; Phaedrus; js1138; BMCDA; cornelis
Thank your tortoise, unspun and js1138 for all your posts!

This subject is indeed quite interesting and I wish I had time for a more thorough response but I have company all weekend, so I’ll make this brief.

The website of the url at 1202 is one of my favorites for keeping up with news on consciousness; this is the tiniest article I’ve read at that site.

On first blush, it appears the author of the book being reviewed in that article is taking the Crick view to the extreme. It reads like an evangelical flyer for metaphysical naturalism as he makes sweeping statements that the reader should take as “gospel” truth simply because he says so. And in doing, he sweeps away free will and the soul, and therefore also philosophy and theology as irrelevant.

It reminds me of what might happen if an intelligent cave-dweller got his hands on a radio. Since he knows nothing of radio waves, they don’t exist in his world. He tinkers with the radio and discovers he can control whether it speaks or not or what it says. Aha, says he, these parts in the radio only touch these other parts in the radio and it does this and that by my tinkering - ipso facto there is no soul, no free will and hence, theology and philosophy are irrelevant.

Likewise, I can readily appreciate that quantum mechanics and higher dimensional dynamics are outside the scope of A.I. – much like abiogenesis is outside the scope of evolution biology. That works quite well until either discipline makes a statement touching on the out-of-scope subject. It doesn’t work to make such a statement and then dismiss all rebuttals to it as “out of bounds.”

It so happens that quantum mechanics, quantum field theory and higher dimensional dynamics overarch all physicality and thus cannot be dismissed out-of-hand as never relevant to the study of a physical phenomenon. It may not be relevant today in project A, but one cannot say it will not be relevant tomorrow in project An.

After all, what we comprehend is only by choice of coordinates.

1,210 posted on 06/07/2003 9:10:13 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; tortoise; betty boop; Phaedrus; js1138; BMCDA; cornelis; logos; Kudsman; DannyTN
Well said, girl! And I like your final statement so much...

After all, what we comprehend is only by choice of coordinates.

The one thing I recall being intellectually worthwhile in Matrix Reloaded despite its sick attempt at deconstructions, was "The Oracle's" comment that went something like this: We only gain knowledge as a consequence of the choices we make....

Of course it's been said and expounded upon before "Matrix," and of course there are instances/ways this is not true, but in terms of life's relationality, well, it is our choices that bring what we may know.

1,211 posted on 06/07/2003 11:37:57 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: unspun
Call 'revelation' 'knowledge of unconditioned or absolute values,' and, IMHO, it would be more accurate.

It can become non-denominational then, just an unavoidable part of being human - the way the universe works.
1,212 posted on 06/07/2003 11:27:58 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: unspun
Thank you so much for the kudos and encouragement and for your insight concerning choices and knowledge! Hugs!
1,213 posted on 06/08/2003 7:55:05 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: D-fendr; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; tortoise; js1138; Consort; Kudsman; Hank Kerchief; ...
Call 'revelation' 'knowledge of unconditioned or absolute values,' and, IMHO, it would be more accurate. It can become non-denominational then, just an unavoidable part of being human - the way the universe works.

From my perspective as a man who gets along with other men to understand things and cooperate based upon what we may mutually understand, this seems fair to me.

However, from my perspective as being subject to God, who has informed man of his qualities, regards, and his relational interaction with us all over history, also his personal interaction with me personally, there does come a condition = God. And since he is the one whose perspective is truth, it seems that we have much more room (and responstiblity) to speak of what specifics are involved in his revelation.

I don't believe that these two considerations are mutually exclusive (or I would be seeing incongruity in God) so how I converse about revelation with others becomes a matter of propriety (better to say "wisdom" as the Bible relates).

Good enough? What thinkest thou?

(Pinging recent posters, sorry if I've missed any.)

1,214 posted on 06/08/2003 11:45:59 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: unspun
The human race would be left to think anything we wanted were it not for the fact that God has spoken unto man. He has not left us alone. He has chosen faithful men over many generations to reveal his word, and pass that faith on to other generations. The inspired word is so powerful that it has endured thousands of years of scrutiny and the unbelief of many, while it continues to spread and produce results. The only ones doubting those results are the ones who fail to examine his word fully, deciding to "hear thee again of this matter." Or, like king Agrippa, they listen but will not relinquish their own life and will, nor see their need of repentance, saying, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian."

When Jesus was asked by the rich young ruler what he needed to be saved, it was only one thing, Jesus himself. He refused to give up the idol that his wealth had become to him and follow God. It says that Jesus loved him, and called him to follow him. He chose the deceitfulness of riches over walking with God, hearing his word and beholding his glory. Some of those who post here have great minds, but their intellects are their god's, and the true God is not allowed to intervene in their thought life.To them, God is an equation to be understood, not the everlasting King inviting sinners to redemption.

"For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." (1 Corinthians 1:18-21) You cannot understand the path of salvation apart from salvation itself, and that salvation is in the person of Jesus Christ.
1,215 posted on 06/08/2003 4:55:33 PM PDT by man of Yosemite ("When a man decides to do something everyday, that's about when he stops doing it.")
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To: tortoise
Animals do learn what time their owners return to work, and can recognize the car of a family member when it is a long way off. Having owned dogs in my younger days, I could trick a dog into getting locked in the backyard, but the dog would catch on eventually and not move the next time. They sometimes remember a place where they had been injured. They are also aware of repurcussions when they have done something wrong and will cower in the owner's presence. Then you go through your house and discover that they shoved all the covers off the bed, or dumped their water bowl over. There is a lot of communication which goes on between animals and their owners by means of looks and tonations of the voice. One dog would get all excited if you just said the word "mountains", knowing he was going to go run in the hills.
1,216 posted on 06/08/2003 5:19:18 PM PDT by man of Yosemite ("When a man decides to do something everyday, that's about when he stops doing it.")
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To: man of Yosemite; unspun
Thank y'all so much for your testimony!

Indeed, spiritual understanding comes from God as a gift, when we are born again. It cannot be attained by any mortal device, including mental prowess.

1,217 posted on 06/09/2003 2:30:08 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: DaughterofEve; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; bondserv; man of Yosemite; tortoise; Yeti; logos; djf; x; ...
Hello again FReeper fellows,

If you remember this thread, you may remember that I promised to summarize Dallas Willard's case against "thinking in language."

Well, I got distracted with other things. But finally... I'd like to present a quotatation I've just happened by, for a brief if somewhat oblique summary:

"The very essence of the creative is its novelty, and hence we have no standard by which to judge it."
--Carl. R. Rogers

For a further explanation on the positive side of the matter (why, if not exactly how we don't think in language) I could also present this link and this.

Thanks again for your interest. If there are any new comments this 2004, feel free....

1,218 posted on 01/07/2004 6:14:53 PM PST by unspun (The uncontextualized life is not worth living. | I'm not "Unspun w/ AnnaZ" but I appreciate.)
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To: unspun
Words only matter because words are what we think with

Hi unspun!! Gosh I 'lost track' of you! Thanks for the ping and wishing you a Happy New Year. Carol

1,219 posted on 01/07/2004 6:38:06 PM PST by potlatch (Whenever I feel 'blue', I start breathing again.)
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To: unspun
I have spent a lot of time "thinking" about "thinking" and I have reached some new conclusions.

I Freep a lot and must communicate "in language", so when I Freep I think "in language". However, my fingers type with no thought and when I'm hungry, I get repeated images of my hand pulling open the refrigerator door, with no language uttered at all.

When I am organizing, I think "in language". I say to myself, "Now where does this go?" and then I say "Now what did I come into this room for?" When I am planning I think in language, "I will accomplish this before beginning this." When I am reading or working I think "in language".

When I am driving I think in symbols, until I need to plan a route. Bathing, going to the bathroom, going to bed, eating, hugging people, relaxing: in symbols.

My conclusion: Instinct level or animal level actions require only "image thought", while human level, higher order activites require "language thought".

1,220 posted on 01/07/2004 8:17:59 PM PST by TaxRelief ("Links" build the chain of knowledge.)
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