Matrix Reloaded. Has Anybody seen it?

none | 5/16/03 | none

[The South Texan]

Just curious if anybody has seen this flick yet? The first one was great, but I have been disapointed with squels before.

[Michael2001]

I'm reading a lot of opinions on this movie, and one thing seems to stand out -- the talk between the Architect and Neo, at the end, was unintelligable to many many people who are not familiar with programming-speak. The architect spoke in "tech-ese" most of the time -- '"The One" is an anomoly in the system', and that kind of stuff. Many, many, many people who saw it have absolutely no idea what an "anomoly in a system" would be, or what that means. They don't know why that would make a system unstable, etc.

Many people didn't like it because they said it had no plot, and that there was too much "psychobabble". I believe it's because of that scene. It went over many people's heads.

I didn't think much about it at first, as it all made perfect sense to me (I am a systems architect). But the more I read other's opinions, the more I'm becoming convinced that is the case.

I was one of those people. Could you clue me in to what I missed? I rarely watch a movie twice, but this movie was so complex I want to see it again, though I will probably wait until it comes out on DVD.

[frosty snowman]

I was wondering what the purpose was, other than "shock value."

It was an awkward and uncreative way to show that Neo and Trinity are in love, as a plot setup for the ending. In Hollywood, if a couple is sleeping together it always means they are in love. It could've been done in a more subtle way, the first scene of them kissing was enough to get the idea across. The dance scene was made to look more sexual than it was by cutting in shots of those two in bed.
The chocolate cake thing was totally unnecessary. I think the directors just wanted an excuse to film a digitized scene of the camera going up a woman's skirt!

[pupdog]

THE BAD: This movie fully merits the "R" rating, unfortunately. There is a full 5-6 minute, completely un-necessary orgy/sex scene that seems to go on forever in what is supposed to be a "temple" in Zion. It is like something out of a pagan ritual. While we are treated to scenes of sweaty bodies grinding and groping, there are explicit scenes of Neo and Trinity having intercourse, orgasm and all. The sad thing is, none of this adds anything to the movie, which would have probably been "PG-13" had they simply edited out this 5-6 minute orgy. I don't know what is more shocking or disappointing: This scene being included in what was otherwise an excellent movie, or the fact that there was a family of a mom, dad, and three boys under the age of 10 in front of us.

I defended this in another forum: I need to now do so here. I found this scene not only to be completely necessary, but to have made the movie complete in a way no other scene prior did. Here's the cut-and-paste from my other post on this:

----------------

It appears that I'm in a small minority of people who was utterly blown away by this movie. That's fine by me: I've thought of myself as a pretty unique person for a long time, and the people whose opinions on these kinds of things I most trust all seem to have had the same reaction that I did. So I know that I'm not crazy, but am instead in a pretty small group of people who seems to share a specific mindset; not better or worse, but just different. This is all fine by me.

But while I'm not going to tell anyone that they need to have the same opinion that I do, there is one scene in particular from this movie that many people seem to have missed the point of, and I need to now defend that. I do that below.

The scene in question is the rave/drum-circle/getdowngetfunky/orgy/whateveryouwanttocallit scene that's near the start of the movie. I've heard many complaints about this scene, from it being too long to it being distracting to it being not in sync with the rest of the movie. Here is why I think all these complaints miss the point.

When I was dutifully fulfilling my role as drooling fan-boy I remember listening to the speeches Morpheus gave in the previews about how this is a war, and we are all soldiers in it, asking whether or not victory is worth giving our lives for. I've long thought that there are things worse than death, and though I've learned better than to sacrifice myself to whatever the hippest cause at any moment is, I've kept in mind the necessity of not being afraid to make this choice, or that of any lesser sacrifices for that matter.

Yet there is another side to that equation. Yes, it is right to fight for what you believe in, and I do think that there is a great conflict coming soon in this country (and though I don't think it's going to come quite as soon as I originally believed, I still don't think it's that far in the future). But as much as I feel the need to be ready for it, doing so would be incomplete without the answer to a key question: why are we fighting?

It is that question that the dance scene answered. The reason to fight the machines is specifically to have nights like those, when man could celebrate being man, being alive. You cannot fight for life until you understand exactly the life you are fighting for. To dance, to sing, to meditate, to listen, to watch, to love, to enjoy your existence in whatever manner is most natural to you. These are the reasons to be alive. For all of the things that humans had to do in order to prepare themselves for the day of the great battle ahead, there was nothing more important than to have a night that would be in the front of their minds during that day.

Thus not only was this scene not a waste, it was critical, and the story would have been completely different without it. The rest of the trilogy so far shows how the humans wage their war. It does not show why they choose to continue. That a scene was included that answers that question makes the story whole, and given that purpose, 4 minutes I don't think is nearly a huge amount of time to spend on it. To bring this back to my own life, I often need nights similar to these to remind me of why I push onward. One gathering this last weekend filled that role very well for me.

For an analogy to this, think of the movie Glory (warning: spoliers on this one as well). The movie's climax consists of the protagonistic unit entering into a battle in which they already know they will suffer heavy casualties, if any of them live through it at all. So what do they do the night before to prepare for it? They sing. They gather around in a songful session to the Lord, with anyone who wants to giving words for what the day tomorrow will mean for them. As his entire unit hums in unison, Morgan Freeman's character delivers the devastating line, "May I fall tomorrow with a gun in one hand and a Bible in the other!" (paraphrased). This was of course more low-key than the similar scene in MR, but was equally powerful, and equally purposeful (and about as long, for that matter).

I won't go much into Morpheus's speech preceding it, but I have about the same defenses for it. He said exactly what I believe needed to be said (and about what I would have said given his spot, or would have wanted to hear if I were in Zion). If you understand that my favorite Elton John song is "I'm Still Standing", then perhaps that added to my explanation above can help you see why I felt his speech was the right thing at the right time.

This is just one scene. I'm going to see this multiple times in the theatres to start picking up all of the little details, but the first time through, I have personally almost no objections to anything I saw there. Again, this is up to everyone to discern on their own which is why I'm not going to get too preachy here, but the complaints about the above were too important for me to ignore. I think that understanding that scene does help one understand exactly where the Wachowski brothers are taking this entire trilogy, and thus even if people don't see this story the way I do, the importance of those 4 minutes is something I can't refrain from explaining from my perspective.

----------------

One thing I'll add that I didn't include above is that, just as much as it was necessary for those in the movie to partake in this, so is it also necessary for us as the veiwer to see that this is, in fact, part of the Wachowski brother's message, and that like the people in the story, their own explanation would be incomplete without it.

So there are my 2 cents, stretched for maximum usage. Take as you will, and thanks for listening.

[american_ranger]

My 17 year old son and I went on Sunday. We both thought that it was slow, boring, and not worth the money. Wait for it to come out on video. Only good parts were the fight scenes and they are not worth the full price tickets.

We are both into sci-fi so that was not a factor.

Our bet is that in Matrix 3, we will discover that the people who are out of the matrix and living in Zion will discover that they are still in the matrix, just a matrix that lets them think that they are out.

[chichipow]

I think that was more foreshadowing than proof. Theory 1 is that he affected the sentinels, theory 2 is that the ship that came to rescue them minutes later used and EMP to save them before the sentinels got to him. Reason for the coma? Theory 1 is he realized there was a real world beyond the world of zion, theory 2 is that the elements that he absorbed from Smith (as Smith absorbed some from him) were effected by the EMP blast. Revolutions will tell.

[chichipow]

Make sure to play as Ghost second time around, it's substantially different.

[Texaggie79]

Neo is given the spoon as a method of explaining to him that zion is not real but part of the Matrix it's self.

Hows that? Neo is headed off to go INTO the Matrix. The orphan gave him the spoon to remind that he has the power in the Matrix. I'm not saying that I don't think that there could be a matrix within a matrix but I don't see the spoon as anything that refers to that aspect.

[Sentis]

I believe the spoon is nothing more than a filmakers clue as to the reality that Zion isn't. Because he is given the spoon in Zion I saw it as this type of clue nothing more. If the child that could bend the spoon sent it to Neo it means that child is now in Zion. If the child now realizes that Zion is not the real world what better symbol to send Neo than a spoon.

[Texaggie79]

I have mixed feelings on that scene. As I was with my nephew, and had to cover his eyes (as if he hasn't seen bare backsides) I did feel uncomfortable with him there. However, as an adult, I appreciate the scene as a great going away party. I didn't really see orgy like activity as far as partner sharing. It seemed, just as it is in many night clubs, that people and/or couples were keeping to themselves, as Link and his wife did.

Also, I loved the track playing.

[Texaggie79]

I agree that the child could use the spoon for that very reason, however, it just seemed more than coincidence that it was sent as Neo was headed off to enter back into the Matrix, as if to say "Remember, when you get back into the Matrix, the spoon isn't real."

[Sentis]

It could really go either way but the second I saw the spoon I realized Zion was a second matrix if that means anything.

[Texaggie79]

I would have thought that if the spoon was bent.

[LibertyGirl77]

In other words, there are no robots. So we're back to square one: What is the Matrix?

[rattrap]

I saw it, i thought the first 45 minutes we're pretty bad,
but there were some parts that for me were worth the price of admission. Overall i'd give it a 3.5 out of 5, i enjoyed it but i'm a big matrix fan. also, if you play video games, enter the matrix is a pretty good game with a plot that runs along side reloaded and explains some backstory and what goes on with some of the other charachters in the film.

---

SPOILER

---

even if you go in knowing about the underground rave scene, it still won't help you prepare yourself for how bad it is.

[bobwoodard]

I'm not sure about that.

After the second viewing, it's easier to pick out villan dialog that seem to indicate that 'everyone else' (mainframe/matrix/program-wise) is in on the whole versioning aspect of Neo.

For instance, the frenchman mentioned that Neo's previous versions weren't as troublesome as the current version.

Also, the dialog Smith gives about Neo not knowing his purpose gives the appearance of Smith knowing what Neo doesn't.

[bobwoodard]

The language was also coarser and more repetitious than the first. Definitely not for kids.

Isn't that the point of an R rating?

[bobwoodard]

It is that question that the dance scene answered. The reason to fight the machines is specifically to have nights like those, when man could celebrate being man, being alive. You cannot fight for life until you understand exactly the life you are fighting for. To dance, to sing, to meditate, to listen, to watch, to love, to enjoy your existence in whatever manner is most natural to you. These are the reasons to be alive. For all of the things that humans had to do in order to prepare themselves for the day of the great battle ahead, there was nothing more important than to have a night that would be in the front of their minds during that day.

I agree. There are lots of ways to show the different reasons, but what gives the most visual impact and gets the most points across in the 5-10 minutes? Would it have been Neo & Trinity, holding hands, skipping down a corridor? If someone's concerned about the morality, do we know that they aren't married? It's just left unaddressed.

Also interesting is the whole aspect of the other (however many) minutes of the movie being graphic with death, possession, wounding, destruction, etc, but it's the 5-10 minutes of people dancing and love that send some people over the edge.

It's like they're saying "Give me the gunshot wounds and explosions, but don't show me a sweaty body gyrating around (on the dance floor or otherwise)".

[scott7278]

Yes, it is, but the first one was rated "R" because of violence. There might be a parent who would be tempted to take their younger one solely because of the first one.

I was fooled into thinking the second one would be like the first one content-wise. The poster of this thread wanted our opinions, I was giving it through a response to someone else.

The Wachowski brothers tried to fit more into that "R" rating, that's for sure.

[bobwoodard]

The Wachowski brothers tried to fit more into that "R" rating, that's for sure.

A hard "R" vesus a soft "R", perhaps? It just struck me as odd that the existance and level of the violence was acceptable, while the addition of the sex was not. Each to their own? 8-)

Interestingly though, the W brothers didn't follow the normal plot device of exposing the female character more than the male character in a love scene, it seemed that they were careful to treat both charcters equally.

[Sloth]

A hard "R" vesus a soft "R", perhaps? It just struck me as odd that the existance and level of the violence was acceptable, while the addition of the sex was not. Each to their own? 8-)

Keep in mind that the violence was not gory -- it simply involved a sizeable body count & LOTS of gunplay. I always attributed the first movie's 'R'-rating to anti-gun attitudes within the MPAA. The sequel, however, is a much more typical R-rated movie.

Anyhow, I think there is a strong cultural difference between violence as entertainment & sex as entertainment. Most rational people don't worry if their kids go around pointing their fingers (or toys guns) at each other and pretending to shoot... but they'd be pretty freaked if the same kids were simulating intercourse.