"Hopeless Alert Call from Brazil" [Nazi Socialism Out of Control in Brazil --A.L.]

And I'm not saying this to belittle you...

LOL That's is EXACTLY what your trying to do.

...didn't mean to speak on you behalf.

Ah, so proper spelling is a fleeting thing, eh? What a difference a post makes.

You started it, sparky.

Wouldn't it be weird if the next pope happened to be from Brazil (Brazil's Claudio Hummes)? Weird and prophetic. We live in scary times, indeed.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archives/2003/10/13/2003071528

Yes. Although there are some excellent people in Brazil the social and political climate there is really scary. Do you want me to post that, or did you already do so?

"This is Communist disinformation that they have successfully pushed for years. Nazism IS socialism, pay attention to the name: The National Socialist party. While you are correct that Nazis and Commies are enemies, it is because each group wants to be THE socialists that steal all the wealth and have an orgy of execution (genocide) and they each must eliminate the other to accomplish their goal." Navy Patriot

As much as I don't agree with what you said I would like to praise you in your polite response unlike some other members of the board that prefer to be rude and crude. i.e. Defcon.
Well what would you call a right wing totalitarian regime? See...Nazism is a form of fascism...and fascism is widely recognized by all as being a right wing ideology (specially scholars). Again...I've been surprised at the opinions of the members of the board who seem to believe otherwise. But nevertheless...to turn the argument on its head how would you define fascism? Or perhaps even better what would a right wing totalitarian regime look like?

Do you not believe that capitalism has its authoritarian version in fascism?

A fascist economy is controlled by the state. The economy is nationalized and ultimately private property can be taken by the state at any time. This is not Free Enterprise. "Capitalism" is a communist term anyway.

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler (Speech of May 1, 1927. Quoted by Toland, 1976, p. 306)

"Against individualism, the Fascist conception is for the State; and it is for the individual in so far as he coincides with the State, which is the conscience and universal will of man in his historical existence...for the Fascist, everything is in the State, and nothing human or spiritual exists, much less has value,-outside the State." - Benito Mussolini - 1932.

The Mystery of Fascism - David Ramsay Steele - "Leftists often imagine that Fascists were afraid of a revolutionary working-class. Nothing could be more comically mistaken. Most of the early Fascist leaders had spent years trying to get the workers to become revolutionary. As late as June 1914, Mussolini took part enthusiastically, at risk of his own life and limb, in the violent and confrontational "red week." The initiators of Fascism were mostly seasoned anti-capitalist militants who had time and again given the working class the benefit of the doubt."

The Socialist Calumny Against the Jews

The Marxians are not prepared to admit that the Nazis are socialists too. In their eyes Nazism is the worst of all evils of capitalism. On the other hand, the Nazis describe the Russian system as the meanest of all types of capitalist exploitation and as a devilish machination of World Jewry for the domination of the gentiles. Yet it is clear that both systems, the German and the Russian, must be considered from an economic point of view as socialist. And it is only the economic point of view that matters in debating whether or not a party or system is socialist. Socialism is and has always been considered a system of economic organization of society. It is the system under which the government has full control of production and distribution. As far as socialism existing merely within individual countries can be called genuine, both Russia and Germany are right in calling their systems socialist.
...The Nazis do not reject Marxism because it aims at socialism but because, as they say, it advocates internationalism. ...What the Nazis really have in mind when indicting the Jewish mind for internationalism is the liberal theory of free trade and the mutual advantages of international division of labor. The Jews, they say, want to corrupt the innate Aryan spirit of heroism by the fallacious doctrines of the advantages of peace. ...Finally, the Nazis call the business mentality Jewish. Tacitus informs us that the German tribes of his day considered it clumsy and shameful to acquire with sweat what could be won by bloodshed.

The Socialist Roots of Nazism - Friedrich A. Hayek

The doctrines which had guided the ruling elements in Germany for the past generation were opposed not to the socialism in Marxism but to the liberal elements contained in it, its internationalism and its democracy. And as it became increasingly clear that it was just these elements which formed obstacles to the realization of socialism, the socialists of the Left approached more and more to those of the Right. It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.The connection between socialism and nationalism in Germany was close from the beginning. It is significant that the most important ancestors of National Socialism-Fichte, Robertus, and Lassalle-are at the same time acknowledged fathers of socialism. ...The "German idea of the state," as formulated by Fichte, Lassalle, and Rodbertis, is that the state is neither founded nor formed by individuals, nor an aggregate of individuals, nor is its purpose to serve any interest of individuals. It is a Volksgemeinschaft in which the individual has no rights but only duties. Claims of the individual are always an outcome of the commercial spirit.

Why Are We Socialists?

by Joseph Goebbels

We are socialists because we see in socialism, that is the union of all citizens, the only chance to maintain our racial inheritance and to regain our political freedom and renew our German state.

Socialism is the doctrine of liberation for the working class. It promotes the rise of the fourth class and its incorporation in the political organism of our Fatherland, and is inextricably bound to breaking the present slavery and the regaining of German freedom. Socialism therefore is not merely a matter of the oppressed class, but a matter for everyone, for freeing the German people from slavery is the goal of contemporary policy. Socialism gains its true form only through a total combat brotherhood with the forward-striving energies of a newly awakened nationalism. Without nationalism it is nothing, a phantom, a mere theory, a castle in the sky, a book. With it it is everything, the future, freedom, the Fatherland!

The sin of liberal thinking was to overlook socialism's nation-building strengths, thereby allowing its energies to go in anti-national directions. The sin of Marxism was to degrade socialism into a question of wages and the stomach, putting it in conflict with the state and its national existence. An understanding of both these facts leads us to a new sense of socialism, which sees its nature as nationalistic, state-building, liberating and constructive.

The bourgeois is about to leave the historical stage. In its place will come the class of productive workers, the working class, that has been up until today oppressed. It is beginning to fulfill its political mission. It is involved in a hard and bitter struggle for political power as it seeks to become part of the national organism. The battle began in the economic realm; it will finish in the political. It is not merely a matter of pay, not only a matter of the number of hours worked in a day-though we may never forget that these are an essential, perhaps even the most significant part of the socialist platform-but it is much more a matter of incorporating a powerful and responsible class in the state, perhaps even to make it the dominant force in the future politics of the Fatherland. The bourgeois does not want to recognize the strength of the working class. Marxism has forced it into a straitjacket that will ruin it. While the working class gradually disintegrates in the Marxist front, bleeding itself dry, the bourgeois and Marxism have agreed on the general lines of capitalism, and see their task now to protect and defend it in various ways, often concealed.

We are socialists because we see the social question as a matter of necessity and justice for the very existence of a state for our people, not a question of cheap pity or insulting sentimentality. The worker has a claim to a living standard that corresponds to what he produces. We have no intention of begging for that right. Incorporating him in the state organism is not only a critical matter for him, but for the whole nation. The question is larger than the eight-hour day. It is a matter of forming a new state consciousness that includes every productive citizen. Since the political powers of the day are neither willing nor able to create such a situation, socialism must be fought for. It is a fighting slogan both inwardly and outwardly. It is aimed domestically at the bourgeois parties and Marxism at the same time, because both are sworn enemies of the coming workers' state. It is directed abroad at all powers that threaten our national existence and thereby the possibility of the coming socialist national state.

Socialism is possible only in a state that is united domestically and free internationally. The bourgeois and Marxism are responsible for failing to reach both goals, domestic unity and international freedom. No matter how national and social these two forces present themselves, they are the sworn enemies of a socialist national state.

We must therefore break both groups politically. The lines of German socialism are sharp, and our path is clear.

We are against the political bourgeois, and for genuine nationalism!

We are against Marxism, but for true socialism!

We are for the first German national state of a socialist nature!

We are for the National Socialist German Workers Party!

Date, time, citation, context. Especially, context.

"Despite the widespread republican sentiment, Spaniards support the monarchy because of their reverence for King Juan Carlos - born in exile during the Franco dictatorship, brought back and groomed to succeed him as head of state after Franco died in 1975 and a hero for putting down a coup attempt six year later by generals nostalgic for right-wing rule." AP-NY-05-22-04 0557EDT

This is the associate press calling fascism a right wing ideology not I. Again your article is a link from an unreliable Internet source. I cannot even verify the veracity of your piece. You gave no bibliographical information. But to leave that aside. Even if they call themselves socialists "which they did" changes nothing. Because fascism was a response from the right to the threat of revolution from the communists. It was a strategy in response to the 1929 world economic crisis and the Russian revolution. They had support from the catholic church and conservative groups in general that saw communism as a threat against religion, the family and property. It is odd that you believe that fascism is not a right wing ideology because fascist considered themselves right wingers. (they still do). But regardless of that don't you find odd that you claim that no right wingers existed in Europe? Because at the time there were the communists on the left (with very organized parties). The fascists on the left according to you. Than where was the right? Where were the defenders of religion, the family and property? According to you and the other members of the board the right disappeared from Europe from 1920s-1945. Odd, no right wingers for many decades. Where did they go?

Half your sources can't be verified. Please no Internet unreliable nut jobs. Quote from a published book or magazine rather than website that cannot be verified. Is the fact that every university (even Christian, conservative ones) in their history and political classes refer to fascism as a right ideology a vast conspiracy? Did you know fascists stood for family values, religion, patriotism, property and anticommunism? Did you know the catholic church welcomed the rise of fascism and so did many protestants because the fascists stood for religion, family and against the atheism of the left. Now if they were not right wingers what was the right doing? Who were they? Because apparently they disappeared since everybody was left according to you.

You can call them "right" if you want to, but they did not believe in free enterprise. They condemned capitalist "plutocracy" of the "international bankers" and communism both as materialist jewish inventions.

Blaming "the right", capitalists, conservatives, and the Catholic Church for Nazism is a leftist mindset. The Nazis hated all these groups and worked to destroy them all.

Real conservative Germans loathed Hitler and many of them were executed in the July plot. They plotted to kill Hitler not because they sympathized with Germany's enemies, but because they wanted to win World War II.

Than where was the right? Where were the defenders of religion, the family and property?

Are you saying this is what the nazis stood for?

The Nazis were gangs of homosexuals who set up nationalized whorehouses for SS men to breed the Master Race.

Is that what you think conservative family values stand for?

"By the way Nazis are a right wing group while Socialism is left wing. As a matter of fact Nazism was the arch enemy of Socialism thus a Nazi communist is like a square circle."

You might want to do a little reading on that matter, clear up a misconception common to youth.

Nazis and socialists are divided only by their rhetoric, on the ground the terms mean virtually the same thing.

Exactly. Its really a Darwian thing. If the Brazilian people are clueless enough to allow the stupid leftists in, then they will deserve what they get. I think that WE can cope with a leftist Brazil. I for one won't lose sleep over this, or better said, I'll only keep one eye open to what these clowns are up to...

One of the most interesting things that is happening in Latin America is that all these loser leftist clowns are ganging up on Chile. Argentina and Bolivia, two EXTREME losers, have banded together and basically torn up agreements to supply natural gas to Chile. The *real* reason for this is that Chile is so damn successful, it puts real political pressure on the Argentine and Bolivian leaders to get their act together, something they are unable to do. SO, they want to pull Chile down a peg so THEY won't look quite as incompentent as they do following their stupid socialist economic schemes.

Problem is it won't work. The greedy international corporations who picked Argentina back in the 1990's to invest their money (with a potentially huge population) instead of Chile (which a population well less than half of Argentina), all lost their shirts. The ones who stayed in Chile are doing *very* well.

SO, even with its energy problems caused by their socialist neighbors, the smart foreign investments are continuing to flow into Chile and will keep doing so. At some point, the Argies, Bolivians and Brazilian people will *finally* realize what is going on and then the left's resurgence in Latin America will reverse, probably in a dramatic manner.

Fortunately, there is a large middle class in Argentina and Brazil that may be able to do this, if they can avoid the resurgence of another Chavez type. The Venezuelan middle class has fallen into a pit, and I think they aren't going to be able to escape from it. Thank you jimmuh carter for convincing the Venezuelan middle class to wait for the "referendum" to oust Chavez rather than take to the streets about 18 months ago...

"Blaming "the right", capitalists, conservatives, and the Catholic Church for Nazism is a leftist mindset. The Nazis hated all these groups and worked to destroy them all." tailgunner.

I have decided to not talk about Nazis anymore but rather fascism. It is in fascism that we see these things as worldwide trends. Franco had great support from the catholic church. And so did Vargas (in Latin America), and Mussolini. All these men (fascists) rose to power as a result of a worldwide economic crisis. Capitalism was in serious jeopardy...the socialist and communist parties had their memberships on the rise. Unemployment and crime were ramped worldwide.

It is in this context that authoritarian regimes came to power. There was great fear in all these nations of communist take over. With great dissatisfaction among the working class. Fascists rose to power in many nations. They were anticommunists, they were pro family and pro catholic. They manipulated the masses (even many unions) into believing that it was their turn. However they were unwilling to grant the masses what they needed since they were not proposing an overthrow of the capitalist class, the church or any of the wealthy. It was rather their strategy to seek internal enemies inside the country external enemies outside the country. These enemies were the communists, the Jews, Russia, etc....so they would galvanized the energy and dissatisfaction of masses and channel them against these enemies.

"Than where was the right? Where were the defenders of religion, the family and property?" Maimonides

"Are you saying this is what the Nazis stood for?

The Nazis were gangs of homosexuals who set up nationalized whorehouses for SS men to breed the Master Race.

Is that what you think conservative family values stand for?" tailgunner

Again I want to avoid the Nazi thing. I will rather talk about fascism in general. Fascist were anticommunists, they supported family and were befriended by the church because the church saw what happened to the Orthodox church in Russia and although they might not agree with everything the fascists did. They were however seen as a much better option than the communists. The communist threat was very real. So the church and the conservatives mobilized. Look Germany, Italy, Spain, Brazil, Portugal, all these countries were very religious. Church attendance was high. The fascists rose to power in all these nations and were hardly ever opposed by any conservative. They were rather championed as the defenders of the faith against the communist atheists. Against the Russians. It is also important to look at the big picture. The big picture is a scared to the core Europe and Latin America...scared to the point of allowing fascists to rule with an iron fist. The rise of the fascist then is an alliance between the capitalists, church, conservatives....etc....they needed an authoritarian regime that could arrest at will, without any regards to civil rights...etc....this of course was a radical response to a real threat. It was also necessary an authoritarian regime to keep order. The lower classes were restless, unemployed and just fed up. Each group that supported the fascist did so out of extreme necessity. The capitalist did so out of a fear for strikes and chaos. Beyond that in the not so distant future he feared that his business, factory, etc...would be confiscated in a communist take over. He would be looking at being executed, placed in jail at the very least. A bleak prospect. Remember Russia was the largest country in Europe and that did not stop the communists. So the fear of the communists was ever present. The church supported the fascist in spite of the violence associated with a fascist regime because of the atheist communists. The lessons were fresh in Rome's mind of only 15 years earlier when priests were executed in Russia. Church property confiscated. Beyond that the systematic encouragement on the part of the Communist state of atheism. A communist take over in western Europe would mean the end of catholicism and possibly protestantism. Again these were real fears. Conservatives supported the fascist government because of their fear of the end of the family as they knew it. They would also be looking at a possibly even more authoritarian regime than the fascist. Property would be confiscated, perhaps even small farms. So even small farmers, large ones, the petite bourgeoisie all supported the fascist government. So there was a strategy of containing the communist advance and also to bring order to societies that were being hit hard by a worldwide capitalist crisis. The Jews unfortunately were caught in the crossfire. Hated, or at the very least ignored by catholics and protestants alike. Not having much of a stake in the economy of these countries and when they did there was a sense that they shouldn't since they weren't real "Germans," "Italians," "Brazilians," etc...Although conservatives in many instances, many orthodox Jews lived secluded lives separated from everybody else by laws and traditions written thousands of years earlier. So observant Jews only really talked to and knew other Jews. There relationships to gentiles were largely professional and superficial. They were isolated from politics, the decision making of these nations. Other Jews seduced by the Utopian nature of socialism, where there would be no more Jew or gentile, rich or poor; where all would be able to live in peace in an almost messianic age courtesy of Karl Marx. These Jews were persecuted and killed and arrested due to their socialist and communist leanings. Other Jews were accept in society, specially the wealthy ones, but they would still have to marry within the Jewish intelligentsia.Since it was still taboo to marry a Jew. Although liberal Judaism had made strides in Europe in the 19th century...breaking down the wall that separated Jews from their gentile neighbors still many Christians hated Jews or simply ignored them. It is this "ignore" that ultimately allows for the fascists to kill them. Because nobody would stand up for them. Again the killing of Jews was not a new phenomenon. Something widely practiced throughout the centuries specially in Spain, Portugal, Russia....eastern Europe. All this done in the name of God by church going Christian folk. After all they had killed Jesus a belief still shared by a few church going folk. Things have changed and Christianity is no longer the aintisemitic religion it used to be. The point of all this is really to point out that the fascists were conservatives and supported by conservatives in a time of world crisis. One must understand the concept of world chaos to get the picture that they were right wingers supported by the right opposing left winger communist/socialist bent on world domination and revolution.

Fascism does not eliminate the "capitalist class" but it does control their actions. Fascism is a form of socialism because the government controls the economy. It is also called "corporate socialism." Not all socialists line the bourgeoisie against the wall and shoot them. Not all Socialists are Marxist.

However they were unwilling to grant the masses what they needed since they were not proposing an overthrow of the capitalist class, the church or any of the wealthy.

Is this what they needed? In whose opinion?

You say that the working masses were manipulated into supporting fascism but you offer no such excuse for the Catholics. The truth is that, as in Nazi Germany, the church under fascism had to be careful about what it said in order to continue to survive.

By the way, blaming Christianity for European anti-jew pogroms is also a leftist mindset, as well as a blood libel against all Christians.