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To: Tailgunner Joe
"Blaming "the right", capitalists, conservatives, and the Catholic Church for Nazism is a leftist mindset. The Nazis hated all these groups and worked to destroy them all." tailgunner.

I have decided to not talk about Nazis anymore but rather fascism. It is in fascism that we see these things as worldwide trends. Franco had great support from the catholic church. And so did Vargas (in Latin America), and Mussolini. All these men (fascists) rose to power as a result of a worldwide economic crisis. Capitalism was in serious jeopardy...the socialist and communist parties had their memberships on the rise. Unemployment and crime were ramped worldwide.

It is in this context that authoritarian regimes came to power. There was great fear in all these nations of communist take over. With great dissatisfaction among the working class. Fascists rose to power in many nations. They were anticommunists, they were pro family and pro catholic. They manipulated the masses (even many unions) into believing that it was their turn. However they were unwilling to grant the masses what they needed since they were not proposing an overthrow of the capitalist class, the church or any of the wealthy. It was rather their strategy to seek internal enemies inside the country external enemies outside the country. These enemies were the communists, the Jews, Russia, etc....so they would galvanized the energy and dissatisfaction of masses and channel them against these enemies.

"Than where was the right? Where were the defenders of religion, the family and property?" Maimonides

"Are you saying this is what the Nazis stood for?

The Nazis were gangs of homosexuals who set up nationalized whorehouses for SS men to breed the Master Race.

Is that what you think conservative family values stand for?" tailgunner

Again I want to avoid the Nazi thing. I will rather talk about fascism in general. Fascist were anticommunists, they supported family and were befriended by the church because the church saw what happened to the Orthodox church in Russia and although they might not agree with everything the fascists did. They were however seen as a much better option than the communists. The communist threat was very real. So the church and the conservatives mobilized. Look Germany, Italy, Spain, Brazil, Portugal, all these countries were very religious. Church attendance was high. The fascists rose to power in all these nations and were hardly ever opposed by any conservative. They were rather championed as the defenders of the faith against the communist atheists. Against the Russians. It is also important to look at the big picture. The big picture is a scared to the core Europe and Latin America...scared to the point of allowing fascists to rule with an iron fist. The rise of the fascist then is an alliance between the capitalists, church, conservatives....etc....they needed an authoritarian regime that could arrest at will, without any regards to civil rights...etc....this of course was a radical response to a real threat. It was also necessary an authoritarian regime to keep order. The lower classes were restless, unemployed and just fed up. Each group that supported the fascist did so out of extreme necessity. The capitalist did so out of a fear for strikes and chaos. Beyond that in the not so distant future he feared that his business, factory, etc...would be confiscated in a communist take over. He would be looking at being executed, placed in jail at the very least. A bleak prospect. Remember Russia was the largest country in Europe and that did not stop the communists. So the fear of the communists was ever present. The church supported the fascist in spite of the violence associated with a fascist regime because of the atheist communists. The lessons were fresh in Rome's mind of only 15 years earlier when priests were executed in Russia. Church property confiscated. Beyond that the systematic encouragement on the part of the Communist state of atheism. A communist take over in western Europe would mean the end of catholicism and possibly protestantism. Again these were real fears. Conservatives supported the fascist government because of their fear of the end of the family as they knew it. They would also be looking at a possibly even more authoritarian regime than the fascist. Property would be confiscated, perhaps even small farms. So even small farmers, large ones, the petite bourgeoisie all supported the fascist government. So there was a strategy of containing the communist advance and also to bring order to societies that were being hit hard by a worldwide capitalist crisis. The Jews unfortunately were caught in the crossfire. Hated, or at the very least ignored by catholics and protestants alike. Not having much of a stake in the economy of these countries and when they did there was a sense that they shouldn't since they weren't real "Germans," "Italians," "Brazilians," etc...Although conservatives in many instances, many orthodox Jews lived secluded lives separated from everybody else by laws and traditions written thousands of years earlier. So observant Jews only really talked to and knew other Jews. There relationships to gentiles were largely professional and superficial. They were isolated from politics, the decision making of these nations. Other Jews seduced by the Utopian nature of socialism, where there would be no more Jew or gentile, rich or poor; where all would be able to live in peace in an almost messianic age courtesy of Karl Marx. These Jews were persecuted and killed and arrested due to their socialist and communist leanings. Other Jews were accept in society, specially the wealthy ones, but they would still have to marry within the Jewish intelligentsia.Since it was still taboo to marry a Jew. Although liberal Judaism had made strides in Europe in the 19th century...breaking down the wall that separated Jews from their gentile neighbors still many Christians hated Jews or simply ignored them. It is this "ignore" that ultimately allows for the fascists to kill them. Because nobody would stand up for them. Again the killing of Jews was not a new phenomenon. Something widely practiced throughout the centuries specially in Spain, Portugal, Russia....eastern Europe. All this done in the name of God by church going Christian folk. After all they had killed Jesus a belief still shared by a few church going folk. Things have changed and Christianity is no longer the aintisemitic religion it used to be. The point of all this is really to point out that the fascists were conservatives and supported by conservatives in a time of world crisis. One must understand the concept of world chaos to get the picture that they were right wingers supported by the right opposing left winger communist/socialist bent on world domination and revolution.
99 posted on 06/03/2004 4:15:34 PM PDT by Maimonides
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To: Maimonides
Fascism does not eliminate the "capitalist class" but it does control their actions. Fascism is a form of socialism because the government controls the economy. It is also called "corporate socialism." Not all socialists line the bourgeoisie against the wall and shoot them. Not all Socialists are Marxist.

However they were unwilling to grant the masses what they needed since they were not proposing an overthrow of the capitalist class, the church or any of the wealthy.

Is this what they needed? In whose opinion?

You say that the working masses were manipulated into supporting fascism but you offer no such excuse for the Catholics. The truth is that, as in Nazi Germany, the church under fascism had to be careful about what it said in order to continue to survive.

By the way, blaming Christianity for European anti-jew pogroms is also a leftist mindset, as well as a blood libel against all Christians.

100 posted on 06/03/2004 5:16:43 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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