Posted on 02/17/2003 7:43:03 AM PST by Gothmog
Edited on 04/13/2004 2:09:10 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
THE PROSPECT of war with Iraq has sparked a discussion of the possibility of bringing back military conscription. So far, such a move seems unlikely; the only calls for a reinstatement of the draft have come from war opponents such as Representative Charles Rangel, Democrat of New York, who argues that war requires ''shared sacrifice'' (and believes that if a draft were in place, our government would be more reluctant to go to war).
(Excerpt) Read more at boston.com ...
This isn't about that: This is about the stupidity of pretending that we aren't different.
True, but it sure makes some of us mean...I'm sure the Republican Guard ain't seen nothin' like a hormonal female with a gun or a tank! ;o)
Please cite examples of this. It seems to me that the U.S. military is more formidable than ever. We've come a long way since Vietnam (the last war in which the military was primarily male). In the Gulf War, the recent war in Afghanistan and in the dozen or so minor conflicts we've been engaged in since 1983 (Grenada), the U.S. military has kicked butt. There is absolutely not a shred of evidence out there that shows that women in the military have caused us to lose wars.
I'm indifferent about women in the military. If women never desired to be a part of the military, it would have been okay by me. But women evidently want to play a role in our military and they have been fighting for 30 years to integrate themselves into it. The women by and large have expressed no desire (outside of a very small minority) to serve in a direct combat role, which is fine by me as well. Women have proven their usefulness in their supporting roles in our military. They are now, whether some here like it or not, a valuable part of our military.
So then, being that women have established themselves in our military, is it really fair that they should exempt themselves from the draft? Realize again that the issue is not drafting women into combat roles, but the drafting of women into the supporting roles they have already been proven to perform and perform well. So we men can dispense with this gallant chivalry nonsense in opposing women for the draft. We aren't talking about women being drafted for the front lines here. Ok?
There was a common saying during the American Revolution: "We cannot have taxation without representation." Well we can apply that same idea to the following saying: "We cannot have equal rights without equal responsibility."
So the women want to have equal rights to serve in our military? Fine. Let them also deal with the responsibility that comes with it. Hey, it's not pleasant being drafted. It really puts a crimp in your life's plans, if you know what I mean. Men have been dealing with that for centuries. Why women wanted to be a part of this world is beyond me. But they fought like hell to get here, and well, what can I say other than, to coin another expression, "Sleep in the bed you made."
You go, Bannie! And I'll be right there with you! You mess with gal's family, and hell hath no fury, etc.!
I had a very similar experience in the Army LOL.
Why shouldn't we draft women as well as men?
Because no one should be drafted. If a country can't must enough citizens to defend itsself then it can go into the ashheap of history.
Agreed. But who is the "we" here? Men were content to have the military (and the draft) be all-male. There were no men demanding that women be part of the military. We accepted that women were different and had no desire to have them serve in the military - which we all understood to be a "man's job."
But the women wouldn't have any of this. They called men like us sexist and worse. How dare we keep them from serving in the military alongside the men? They have fought tooth and nail for over 30 years now to integrate women into the military. They used their votes to support political candidates who would get this done. Well, women are now in the military and we men must learn to deal with it. Most of us are fine with it. Heck, if that's what they want, why they're citizens just like we are. Don't they have a right to play a role in our military, if that is what they want? And we have to assume that women as a whole want this because there were no women out there protesting against the women's liberation movement. Why they all seemed to be for it. So here we are today, with an integrated military in which females play a very valuable role.
Hey, it would have been fine by me to not have them in the military at all. But since they are in the military, I do expect them to be held to the same standards as the men. If men must register for the draft, I think the women must be compelled to register for the draft as well. If women have a problem with this, then why weren't they speaking up 30 years ago when the feminists were calling us sexist pigs for wanting to keep the military an all-male institution?
I joined the military with my husband. I was young. I worked hard: Pulled mess duty and CQ; polished floors, cleaned tiolets and policed up cigarette butts; did whatever I was directed to do. I also saw many women scam the system.
I was going to ennumerate the incidents; but I became disgusted with this whole thing. If you can't figure out what can/did go on, I guess you'll have to just mark me off as wrong. Feel free.
Well I don't have issues with women in the military, if that is what you meant by that statement. That's a done deal and I doubt we can ever turn back the clock on that. I'm just saying that since they now a part of the military, they ought to have the same responsibilities as the men relative to work chores and registering for the draft, etc. (I'm not talking about combat roles.)
You say that you saw many other women scam the system. I saw it too. Women who would do 100 situps and run three miles in 20 minutes on a PFT would complain of "women pains" whenever it was time to do something in the field. This was why most of them got clerical duty instead of cleaning toilets and picking up cigarette butts with the male Marines (who would be laughed at if they ever tried to get out of a work detail by saying they were in pain). I'm happy to hear that you weren't one of them and that you willingly pulled your weight with the rest of us. I respect that and I know you weren't the only one. And also, thank you for your service to our country!
Since there is a long set precedent for the draft most Americans do not question the concept but if we live in a free society that jealously guards the concept of liberty then the draft would be anathema as it means that the state has first claim on your very person and very life itself. If the individual does not do as the state orders then the state can imprison you or even kill you - that is the antithesis of individualism and liberty. A free society fighting justly for its own defense would have more than enough volunteers. That said if we are to have a draft - draft everybody. (especially pundits)
AND, (not directed to you, ward...) what about the differences in women's brains? Women have communication abilities on both sides of the brain, giving men a better "single-minded-ness." FURTHER, men have "compasses" in their brains which are more effective.
We can argue over equality all we want; BUT IT DOESN'T EXIST! Why do you suppose that God (gasp!) created us to work as TEAMS to raise children? Geesh! We wren't identical, but we MATCH...too bookends: One can't hold the books up alone, and...well...
THIS IS GETTING SILLY.
But since males are currently required to register for the draft, I think it is only right that women be compelled to as well, being that they have established themselves as an important part of our military. Of course, I'd just as soon do away with the whole thing (draft registration).
BTW, when I got out of active duty with the Marine Corps in 1985, one of the first things I had to do was go to the local post office and re-register for the draft.
I think, maybe, you and I are arguing FOR the same thing. We both saw women scam the system, and we were both disgusted. We can't have equality because we are not "equal." IF we were truly EQUAL, you could have babies, and I could pee on a wall. :)
And women don't smell as sexy as men.
You're absolutely right -- War is NOT a "democracy." <.P I would also add that neither is education, sports, employment, etc., or any other facet of American life that has become clouded by "equal rights" legislation.
Well I've seen my wife have both of our babies and I can assure you that I would sign up for combat duty in a heartbeat before going through that myself! (And peeing on a tree is a convenience I wouldn't want to give up.)
VOLUNTEER US Army Vet,
jimt
Why shouldn't we draft women as well as men?
Actually, we are talking about sending women into combat, for this simple legal reason: In the 1970s an anti-war type brought a federal suit saying the drafting of (just) men was unconstitutional--eventually the USSC rulled that SINCE women were not used in combat--by congressional mandate, there was no need to draft them. Therefore the only legal barrier to drafting women is the combat rule. Since the '70's forward, the feminists have pressured the military (within and without) to allow increasing roles for women--including roles that were once called combat roles.
Since left-wing feminists are anti-military and anti-war generally, this fits well into their agenda (just like those who call for the draft now--its done for anti-war purposes), the idea being when we have America's daughters coming home in body bags we'll be less likely to use our military than otherwise. Roles in peace-time too--neatly divided between combat and non-combat (training exercises)will not be so neat, come a serious war. Physical and emotional strength--as well minimizing distractions for the men--are important even in the most modern technological military.....and women do not help in these priorities. 50% of women on various ships during the Gulf War became pregnant....can you imagine the problems that would cause if we were against a really challenging foe??? Its stupid to the point of absurdity to think you can put 18 year old men & women together and not have serious "family" problems.
Not since pagan times have Western governments forced women into military service. The day our government does this--is the day I help my daughter to be a draft dodger. Its not right and unnatural to require women in the military.
How many commanders would have been relieved of duty in WW2 had conditions been the same then as they are today? Imagine how different the outcome of the war might have been if, say, Eisenhower and McArthur were relieved of command for improper relationships with women in their command? (Just hypothetical, not suggesting that Eisenhower and McArthur would have put themselves in that situation).
I think you and I are trying to achieve the same objective but I'm coming at this thing from a different angle then you are. I feel that if we "call the bluff" of the feminists and start requiring women to register for the draft as men, that they will start backing off a little and they might not be so quick to keep pushing the envelope in the future. It is my opinion that if we continue to reassure them (the feminists) that there never will be any call to draft women, that they will continue to push for women to assume ever increasing roles, even combat roles. Right now, the feminists are fighting this on principle and for political gain as they are feeling confident that nobody will ever call them on it. But I am telling them to put up or shut up.
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