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The "Threat" of Creationism, by Isaac Asimov
Internet ^ | 1984 | Isaac Asimov

Posted on 02/15/2003 4:18:25 PM PST by PatrickHenry

Scientists thought it was settled. The universe, they had decided, is about 20 billion years old, and Earth itself is 4.5 billion years old. Simple forms of life came into being more than three billion years ago, having formed spontaneously from nonliving matter. They grew more complex through slow evolutionary processes and the first hominid ancestors of humanity appeared more than four million years ago. Homo sapians itself—the present human species, people like you and me—has walked the earth for at least 50,000 years.

But apparently it isn't settled. There are Americans who believe that the earth is only about 6,000 years old; that human beings and all other species were brought into existence by a divine Creator as eternally separate variations of beings; and that there has been no evolutionary process.

They are creationists—they call themselves "scientific" creationists—and they are a growing power in the land, demanding that schools be forced to teach their views. State legislatures, mindful of the votes, are beginning to succumb to the pressure. In perhaps 15 states, bills have been introduced, putting forth the creationist point of view, and in others, strong movements are gaining momentum. In Arkansas, a law requiring that the teaching of creationism receive equal time was passed this spring and is scheduled to go into effect in September 1982, though the American Civil Liberties Union has filed suit on behalf of a group of clergymen, teachers, and parents to overturn it. And a California father named Kelly Segraves, the director of the Creation-Science Research Center, sued to have public-school science classes taught that there are other theories of creation besides evolution, and that one of them was the Biblical version. The suit came to trial in March, and the judge ruled that educators must distribute a policy statement to schools and textbook publishers explaining that the theory of evolution should not be seen as "the ultimate cause of origins." Even in New York, the Board of Education has delayed since January in making a final decision, expected this month [June 1981], on whether schools will be required to include the teaching of creationism in their curriculums.

The Rev. Jerry Fallwell, the head of the Moral Majority, who supports the creationist view from his television pulpit, claims that he has 17 million to 25 million viewers (though Arbitron places the figure at a much more modest 1.6 million). But there are 66 electronic ministries which have a total audience of about 20 million. And in parts of the country where the Fundamentalists predominate—the so called Bible Belt— creationists are in the majority.

They make up a fervid and dedicated group, convinced beyond argument of both their rightness and their righteousness. Faced with an apathetic and falsely secure majority, smaller groups have used intense pressure and forceful campaigning—as the creationists do—and have succeeded in disrupting and taking over whole societies.

Yet, though creationists seem to accept the literal truth of the Biblical story of creation, this does not mean that all religious people are creationists. There are millions of Catholics, Protestants, and Jews who think of the Bible as a source of spiritual truth and accept much of it as symbolically rather than literally true. They do not consider the Bible to be a textbook of science, even in intent, and have no problem teaching evolution in their secular institutions.

To those who are trained in science, creationism seems like a bad dream, a sudden reveling of a nightmare, a renewed march of an army of the night risen to challenge free thought and enlightenment.

The scientific evidence for the age of the earth and for the evolutionary development of life seems overwhelming to scientists. How can anyone question it? What are the arguments the creationists use? What is the "science" that makes their views "scientific"? Here are some of them:

• The argument from analogy.

A watch implies a watchmaker, say the creationists. If you were to find a beautifully intricate watch in the desert, from habitation, you would be sure that it had been fashioned by human hands and somehow left it there. It would pass the bounds of credibility that it had simply formed, spontaneously, from the sands of the desert.

By analogy, then, if you consider humanity, life, Earth, and the universe, all infinitely more intricate than a watch, you can believe far less easily that it "just happened." It, too, like the watch, must have been fashioned, but by more-than-human hands—in short by a divine Creator.

This argument seems unanswerable, and it has been used (even though not often explicitly expressed) ever since the dawn of consciousness. To have explained to prescientific human beings that the wind and the rain and the sun follow the laws of nature and do so blindly and without a guiding would have been utterly unconvincing to them. In fact, it might have well gotten you stoned to death as a blasphemer.

There are many aspects of the universe that still cannot be explained satisfactorily by science; but ignorance only implies ignorance that may someday be conquered. To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today.

In short, the complexity of the universe—and one's inability to explain it in full—is not in itself an argument for a Creator.

• The argument from general consent.

Some creationists point at that belief in a Creator is general among all peoples and all cultures. Surly this unanimous craving hints at a greater truth. There would be no unanimous belief in a lie.

General belief, however, is not really surprising. Nearly every people on earth that considers the existence of the world assumes it to have been created by a god or gods. And each group invents full details for the story. No two creation tales are alike. The Greeks, the Norsemen, the Japanese, the Hindus, the American Indians, and so on and so on all have their own creation myths, and all of these are recognized by Americans of Judeo-Christian heritage as "just myths."

The ancient Hebrews also had a creation tale—two of them, in fact. There is a primitive Adam-and-Eve-in-Paradise story, with man created first, then animals, then women. There is also a poetic tale of God fashioning the universe in six days, with animals preceding man, and man and woman created together.

These Hebrew myths are not inherently more credible than any of the others, but they are our myths. General consent, of course, proves nothing: There can be a unanimous belief in something that isn't so. The universal opinion over thousands of years that the earth was flat never flattened its spherical shape by one inch.

• The argument of belittlement.

Creationists frequently stress the fact that evolution is "only a theory," giving the impression that a theory is an idle guess. A scientist, one gathers, arising one morning with nothing particular to do, decided that perhaps the moon is made of Roquefort cheese and instantly advances the Roquefort-cheese theory.

A theory (as the word is used by scientists) is a detailed description of some facet of the universe's workings that is based on long observation and, where possible, experiment. It is the result of careful reasoning from these observations and experiments that has survived the critical study of scientists generally.

For example, we have the description of the cellular nature of living organisms (the "cell theory"); of objects attracting each other according to fixed rule (the "theory of gravitation"); of energy behaving in discrete bits (the "quantum theory"); of light traveling through a vacuum at a fixed measurable velocity (the "theory of relativity"), and so on.

All are theories; all are firmly founded; all are accepted as valid descriptions of this or that aspect of the universe. They are neither guesses nor speculations. And no theory is better founded, more closely examined, more critically argued and more thoroughly accepted, than the theory of evolution. If it is "only" a theory, that is all it has to be.

Creationism, on the other hand, is not a theory. There is no evidence, in the scientific sense, that supports it. Creationism, or at least the particular variety accepted by many Americans, is an expression of early Middle Eastern legend. It is fairly described as "only a myth."

• The argument of imperfection.

Creationists, in recent years, have stressed the "scientific" background of their beliefs. They point out that there are scientists who base their creationists beliefs on a careful study of geology, paleontology, and biology and produce "textbooks" that embody those beliefs.

Virtually the whole scientific corpus of creationism, however, consists of the pointing out of imperfections in the evolutionary view. The creationists insists, for example, that evolutionists cannot true transition states between species in the fossil evidence; that age determinations through radioactive breakdown are uncertain; that alternative interpretations of this or that piece of evidence are possible and so on.

Because the evolutionary view is not perfect and is not agreed upon by all scientists, creationists argue that evolution is false and that scientists, in supporting evolution, are basing their views on blind faith and dogmatism.

To an extent, the creationists are right here: The details of evolution are not perfectly known. Scientists have been adjusting and modifying Charles Darwin's suggestions since he advanced his theory of the origin of species through natural selection back in 1859. After all, much has been learned about the fossil record and physiology, microbiology, biochemistry, ethology, and various other branches of life science in the last 125 years, and it was to be expected that we can improve on Darwin. In fact, we have improved on him. Nor is the process finished. it can never be, as long as human beings continue to question and to strive for better answers.

The details of evolutionary theory are in dispute precisely because scientists are not devotees of blind faith and dogmatism. They do not accept even as great thinker as Darwin without question, nor do they accept any idea, new or old, without thorough argument. Even after accepting an idea, they stand ready to overrule it, if appropriate new evidence arrives. If, however, we grant that a theory is imperfect and details remain in dispute, does that disprove the theory as a whole?

Consider. I drive a car, and you drive a car. I do not know exactly how an engine works. Perhaps you do not either. And it may be that our hazy and approximate ideas of the workings of an automobile are in conflict. Must we then conclude from this disagreement that an automobile does not run, or that it does not exist? Or, if our senses force us to conclude that an automobile does exist and run, does that mean it is pulled by an invisible horses, since our engine theory is imperfect?

However much scientists argue their differing beliefs in details of evolutionary theory, or in the interpretation of the necessarily imperfect fossil record, they firmly accept the evolutionary process itself.

• The argument from distorted science.

Creationists have learned enough scientific terminology to use it in their attempts to disprove evolution. They do this in numerous ways, but the most common example, at least in the mail I receive is the repeated assertion that the second law of thermodynamics demonstrates the evolutionary process to be impossible.

In kindergarten terms, the second law of thermodynamics says that all spontaneous change is in the direction of increasing disorder—that is, in a "downhill" direction. There can be no spontaneous buildup of the complex from the simple, therefore, because that would be moving "uphill." According to the creationists argument, since, by the evolutionary process, complex forms of life evolve from simple forms, that process defies the second law, so creationism must be true.

Such an argument implies that this clearly visible fallacy is somehow invisible to scientists, who must therefore be flying in the face of the second law through sheer perversity. Scientists, however, do know about the second law and they are not blind. It's just that an argument based on kindergarten terms is suitable only for kindergartens.

To lift the argument a notch above the kindergarten level, the second law of thermodynamics applies to a "closed system"—that is, to a system that does not gain energy from without, or lose energy to the outside. The only truly closed system we know of is the universe as a whole.

Within a closed system, there are subsystems that can gain complexity spontaneously, provided there is a greater loss of complexity in another interlocking subsystem. The overall change then is a complexity loss in a line with the dictates of the second law.

Evolution can proceed and build up the complex from the simple, thus moving uphill, without violating the second law, as long as another interlocking part of the system — the sun, which delivers energy to the earth continually — moves downhill (as it does) at a much faster rate than evolution moves uphill. If the sun were to cease shining, evolution would stop and so, eventually, would life.

Unfortunately, the second law is a subtle concept which most people are not accustomed to dealing with, and it is not easy to see the fallacy in the creationists distortion.

There are many other "scientific" arguments used by creationists, some taking quite cleaver advantage of present areas of dispute in evolutionary theory, but every one of then is as disingenuous as the second-law argument.

The "scientific" arguments are organized into special creationist textbooks, which have all the surface appearance of the real thing, and which school systems are being heavily pressured to accept. They are written by people who have not made any mark as scientists, and, while they discuss geology, paleontology and biology with correct scientific terminology, they are devoted almost entirely to raising doubts over the legitimacy of the evidence and reasoning underlying evolutionary thinking on the assumption that this leaves creationism as the only possible alternative.

Evidence actually in favor of creationism is not presented, of course, because none exist other than the word of the Bible, which it is current creationist strategy not to use.

• The argument from irrelevance.

Some creationists putt all matters of scientific evidence to one side and consider all such things irrelevant. The Creator, they say, brought life and the earth and the entire universe into being 6,000 years ago or so, complete with all the evidence for eons-long evolutionary development. The fossil record, the decaying radio activity, the receding galaxies were all created as they are, and the evidence they present is an illusion.

Of course, this argument is itself irrelevant, for it can be neither proved nor disproved. it is not an argument, actually, but a statement. I can say that the entire universe was created two minutes age, complete with all its history books describing a nonexistent past in detail, and with every living person equipped with a full memory; you, for instance, in the process of reading this article in midstream with a memory of what you had read in the beginning—which you had not really read.

What kind of Creator would produce a universe containing so intricate an illusion? It would mean that the Creator formed a universe that contained human beings whom He had endowed with the faculty of curiosity and the ability to reason. He supplied those human beings with an enormous amount of subtle and cleverly consistent evidence designed to mislead them and cause them to be convinced that the universe was created 20 billion years ago and developed by evolutionary processes that include the creation and the development of life on Earth. Why?

Does the Creator take pleasure in fooling us? Does it amuse Him to watch us go wrong? Is it part of a test to see if human beings will deny their senses and their reason in order to cling to myth? Can it be that the Creator is a cruel and malicious prankster, with a vicious and adolescent sense of humor?

• The argument from authority.

The Bible says that God created the world in six days, and the Bible is the inspired word of God. To the average creationist this is all that counts. All other arguments are merely a tedious way of countering the propaganda of all those wicked humanists, agnostics, an atheists who are not satisfied with the clear word of the Lord.

The creationist leaders do not actually use that argument because that would make their argument a religious one, and they would not be able to use it in fighting a secular school system. They have to borrow the clothing of science, no matter how badly it fits, and call themselves "scientific" creationists. They also speak only of the "Creator," and never mentioned that this Creator is the God of the Bible.

We cannot, however, take this sheep's clothing seriously. However much the creationist leaders might hammer away at in their "scientific" and "philosophical" points, they would be helpless and a laughing-stock if that were all they had.

It is religion that recruits their squadrons. Tens of millions of Americans, who neither know nor understand the actual arguments for or even against evolution, march in the army of the night with their Bibles held high. And they are a strong and frightening force, impervious to, and immunized against, the feeble lance of mere reason.

Even if I am right and the evolutionists' case is very strong, have not creationists, whatever the emptiness of their case, a right to be heard? if their case is empty, isn't it perfectly safe to discuss it since the emptiness would then be apparent? Why, then are evolutionists so reluctant to have creationism taught in the public schools on an equal basis with evolutionary theory? can it be that the evolutionists are not as confident of their case as they pretend. Are they afraid to allow youngsters a clear choice?

First, the creationists are somewhat less than honest in their demand for equal time. It is not their views that are repressed: schools are by no means the only place in which the dispute between creationism and evolutionary theory is played out. There are churches, for instance, which are a much more serious influence on most Americans than the schools are. To be sure, many churches are quite liberal, have made their peace with science and find it easy to live with scientific advance — even with evolution. But many of the less modish and citified churches are bastions of creationism.

The influence of the church is naturally felt in the home, in the newspapers, and in all of surrounding society. It makes itself felt in the nation as a whole, even in religiously liberal areas, in thousands of subtle ways: in the nature of holiday observance, in expressions of patriotic fervor, even in total irrelevancies. In 1968, for example, a team of astronomers circling the moon were instructed to read the first few verses of Genesis as though NASA felt it had to placate the public lest they rage against the violation of the firmament. At the present time, even the current President of the United States has expressed his creationist sympathies.

It is only in school that American youngsters in general are ever likely to hear any reasoned exposition of the evolutionary viewpiont. They might find such a viewpoint in books, magazines, newspapers, or even, on occasion, on television. But church and family can easily censor printed matter or television. Only the school is beyond their control.

But only just barely beyond. Even though schools are now allowed to teach evolution, teachers are beginning to be apologetic about it, knowing full well their jobs are at the mercy of school boards upon which creationists are a stronger and stronger influence.

Then, too, in schools, students are not required to believe what they learn about evolution—merely to parrot it back on test. If they fail to do so, their punishment is nothing more than the loss of a few points on a test or two.

In the creationist churches, however, the congregation is required to believe. Impressionable youngsters, taught that they will go to hell if they listen to the evolutionary doctrine, are not likely to listen in comfort or to believe if they do. Therefore, creationists, who control the church and the society they live in and to face the public-school as the only place where evolution is even briefly mentioned in a possible favorable way, find they cannot stand even so minuscule a competition and demand "equal time."

Do you suppose their devotion to "fairness" is such that they will give equal time to evolution in their churches?

Second, the real danger is the manner in which creationists want threir "equal time." In the scientific world, there is free and open competition of ideas, and even a scientist whose suggestions are not accepted is nevertheless free to continue to argue his case. In this free and open competition of ideas, creationism has clearly lost. It has been losing, in fact, since the time of Copernicus four and a half centuries ago. But creationism, placing myth above reason, refused to accept the decision and are now calling on the government to force their views on the schools in lieu of the free expression of ideas. Teachers must be forced to present creationism as though it had equal intellectual respectability with evolutionary doctrine.

What a precedent this sets.

If the government can mobilize its policemen and its prisons to make certain that teachers give creationism equal time, they can next use force to make sure that teachers declare creationism the victor so that evolution will be evicted from the classroom altogether. We will have established ground work, in other words, for legally enforced ignorance and for totalitarian thought control. And what if the creationists win? They might, you know, for there are millions who, faced with a choice between science and their interpretation of the Bible, will choose the Bible and reject science, regardless of the evidence.

This is not entirely because of the traditional and unthinking reverence for the literal words of the Bible; there is also a pervasive uneasiness—even an actual fear—of science that will drive even those who care little for fundamentalism into the arms of the creationists. For one thing, science is uncertain. Theories are subject to revision; observations are open to a variety of interpretations, and scientists quarrel among themselves. This is disillusioning for those untrained in the scientific method, who thus turn to the rigid certainty of the Bible instead. There is something comfortable about a view that allows for no deviation and that spares you the painful necessity of having to think.

Second, science is complex and chilling. The mathematical language of science is understood by very few. The vistas it presents are scary—an enormous universe ruled by chance and impersonal rules, empty and uncaring, ungraspable and vertiginous. How comfortable to turn instead to a small world, only a few thousand years old, and under God's personal and immediate care; a world in which you are his particular concern and where He will not consign you to hell if you are careful to follow every word of the Bible as interpreted for you by your television preacher.

Third, science is dangerous. There is no question but that poison gas, genetic engineering, and nuclear weapons and power stations are terrifying. It may be that civilization is falling apart and the world we know is coming to an end. In that case, why not turn to religion and look forward to the Day of Judgment, in which you and your fellow believers will be lifted into eternal bliss and have the added joy of watching the scoffers and disbelievers writhe forever in torment.

So why might they not win?

There are numerous cases of societies in which the armies of the night have ridden triumphantly over minorities in order to establish a powerful orthodoxy which dictates official thought. Invariably, the triumphant ride is toward long-range disaster. Spain dominated Europe and the world in the 16th century, but in Spain orthodoxy came first, and all divergence of opinion was ruthlessly suppressed. The result was that Spain settled back into blankness and did not share in the scientific, technological and commercial ferment that bubbled up in other nations of Western Europe. Spain remained an intellectual backwater for centuries. In the late 17th century, France in the name of orthodoxy revoked the Edict of Nantes and drove out many thousands of Huguenots, who added their intellectual vigor to lands of refuge such as Great Britain, the Netherlands, and Prussia, while France was permanently weakened.

In more recent times, Germany hounded out the Jewish scientists of Europe. They arrived in the United States and contributed immeasurably to scientific advancement here, while Germany lost so heavily that there is no telling how long it will take it to regain its former scientific eminence. The Soviet Union, in its fascination with Lysenko, destroyed its geneticists, and set back its biological sciences for decades. China, during the Cultural Revolution, turned against Western science and is still laboring to overcome the devastation that resulted.

As we now, with all these examples before us, to ride backward into the past under the same tattered banner of orthodoxy? With creationism in the saddle, American science will wither. We will raise a generation of ignoramuses ill-equipped to run the industry of tomorrow, much less to generate the new advances of the days after tomorrow.

We will inevitably recede into the backwater of civilization, and those nations that retain opened scientific thought will take over the leadership of the world and the cutting edge of human advancement. I don't suppose that the creationists really plan the decline of the United States, but their loudly expressed patriotism is as simpleminded as their "science." If they succeed, they will, in their folly, achieve the opposite of what they say they wish.

( Isaac Asimov, "The 'Threat' of Creationism," New York Times Magazine, June 14, 1981; from Science and Creationism, Ashley Montagu, ed., New York: Oxford University Press, 1984, pp. 182-193. )


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: creation; creationism; crevolist; darwin; evolution; evolutionism; intelligentdesign
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To: js1138; betty boop; Phaedrus; desertcry; Alamo-Girl; balrog666; PatrickHenry; unspun
Interesting read on some modern discoveries regarding the human brain.

http://khouse.org/articles/technical/19990201-229.html
801 posted on 02/22/2003 12:30:02 PM PST by bondserv
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To: Alamo-Girl
AG, no doubt you'll ignore this, but you're posting some serious tinfoil helmet stuff here (literally; EM fields are what tinfoil helmets are supposed to screen out) There are people who study low frequency electomagnetic field emissions of living matter; they're potentially a way of doing remote EKG/EEG sorts of measurements, but the idea that this is some sort of 'link to the cosmos' is loopy. We emit photons at the low end of the spectrum, as a sort of low-intensity electrical noise from our muscles and neurons, but as js1138 wrote in 798, we have no apparatus for receiving them (except for our eyes, and to an extent heat receptors in our skin).
802 posted on 02/22/2003 12:31:27 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: Right Wing Professor
I must say in passing I find it amusing that our anti-evolutionist posters seem very generally to be afficionados of the Art Bell school of scientific thought, complete with black projects in the DOD to produce holographic UFOs, low frequency EM resonances linking our consciousnesses together, etc. This bears out my observation that while many creationists may be scientifically literate, it's on a very superficial level; the idea of estimating on the back of the envelope what voltage could be induced in a human neuron by a neuronal depolarization 6 feet away is one that just doesn't occur to them. So they can calculate the probability of arranging the 10^9 bases in the human genome in the exact order, but they have no idea if this is a small or a big number in comparison with other probability calcuations on a molecular scale (FWIW, it's very small ).

I have to advocate credulity, but you really ought to admit that if 99% of the physicists in the country agree on a scientiifc question, they are probably not going to be correctly second guessed by someone who knows a lot less physics.

803 posted on 02/22/2003 12:49:53 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: Diamond
A metaphysical, (non scientific) argument against creation such as this based upon your own expectations of what a designer would or would not do, or should or should not do, or is capable or incapable of doing does not constitute a proof of evolution or even evidence of evolution

In ths instance, I was arguing against 'intelligent design', not for evolution. If you argue that genomes are similar because of 'code reuse', you then need to ask whether similarities between genomes have characteristics that reflect reused code.

One major premise of ID is that design can be detected by scientific principles. You're arguing against ID by saying the designer's purpose is ineffable.

804 posted on 02/22/2003 12:54:39 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: Southack
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't we already identified at least FIVE unique "original" life forms/species that share no common genetic characteristics other than using the same DNA instruction processing system?

I know of no single organism of this sort, let alone five.

805 posted on 02/22/2003 12:57:50 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: Southack
Man is now able to begin contemplate genetic modifications to himself.

Yes, scary, isn't it? Worse, he is able to contemplate modifications of his offspring. Take a look at Michael Jackson's 2003 face, reflect on the fact he has custody of three of his own children, and tell me our species is ready for this. As if we need yet another way to screw up our kids' lives!

806 posted on 02/22/2003 1:01:18 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: bondserv
Thank you so much for the link!

The part about shuffling around salamander brains and memory returning is particularly fascinating as it runs contrary to Crick's "Astonishing Hypothesis" where he asserts that mind (including the soul) is fully contained within the physical brain. Your linked article said:

Indiana University biologist Paul Pietsch set out to disprove Pribram's theories. In a series of over 700 operations on salamanders, however, he discovered that their learned behavior was not affected by repositioning, reversing, or even shuffling the brain. After recovering from the operation, their behavior returned to normal.2

I recall one of the reviews of Crick's work said that it would be necessary to run many test removing different parts of the human brain to test the theory (and that would never happen in our society.)

807 posted on 02/22/2003 1:32:30 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
The brain isn't the mind any more than the piano is the concerto.
808 posted on 02/22/2003 1:33:41 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (more dangerous than an OrangeNeck)
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To: Right Wing Professor
You must be referring to the information sciences, Theoretical physics, and the like, which is doing more to disrupt the viability of the evolutionary model. Many more real scientists are pursueing the evidence without the educational establishments grant money.

http://www.ldolphin.org/LTDres.html

http://www.ldolphin.org/gspeed.html

http://www.ldolphin.org/update.html

http://www.ldolphin.org/asstbib.shtml
809 posted on 02/22/2003 1:37:57 PM PST by bondserv
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To: HiTech RedNeck
Thank you for your post! I agree!
810 posted on 02/22/2003 1:54:09 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
I recall one of the reviews of Crick's work said that it would be necessary to run many test removing different parts of the human brain to test the theory (and that would never happen in our society.)

It happens all the time due to accidents and cerebrovascular accidents. It's also possible to study localization of function with real-time MRI scans. Non-locality of memory has been known for decades. It is one of the reasons I believe artificial intelligence is beyond my lifetime, because no one knows how it works.

None of this argues for any non-physical property of the mind. Just because memories are spread out doesn't mean they aren't embodied.

From the standpoint of ID vs evolution, I find it interesting that the level of redundency in the brain is staggering, compared, say to the redundency of the space shuttle's heat shield.

811 posted on 02/22/2003 2:16:50 PM PST by js1138
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To: bondserv
Many more real scientists are pursueing the evidence without the educational establishments grant money.

And as a bonus, they may find Amelia Earhardt and the Real Killer of OJ's wife along the way!

http://www.ldolphin.org/LTDres.html

I see he's going after Einstein as well as Darwin. Now that's a *real* scientist, all right!

See my other post about the Art Bell school of science. This guy should be their provost!

812 posted on 02/22/2003 2:17:38 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: HiTech RedNeck
Nor does the concerto exist without instruments, players, and the compression and rarefaction of air. Nor does it exist in the composer without the operation of the brain.
813 posted on 02/22/2003 2:20:13 PM PST by js1138
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To: betty boop
He did point out in his book that the human brain is bombarded 24/7 by all species of electromagnetic radiation coming from the outside environment.

Good thing we have this!


814 posted on 02/22/2003 2:24:41 PM PST by edsheppa
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To: Right Wing Professor
Thank you for your post! I shall not ignore it.

you're posting some serious tinfoil helmet stuff here (literally; EM fields are what tinfoil helmets are supposed to screen out)

Everything that I posted is from a credible source. You may disagree with them, and certainly Abraham has a Buddhist tilt, but they aren’t “tin foil” types either.

These are some of the books published by Ralph H. Abraham:

Linear and Multilinear Algebra, Benjamin, New York, 1967.
Transversal Mappings and Flows (with J. Robbin), Benjamin, New York, 1967. MR 39#2181 (J. Palis, 1970)
Foundations of Mechanics(with J. Marsden), Benjamin, New York, Second Edition, 1979. MR 81e:58025 (D. L. Rod)
Dynamics, the Geometry of Behavior, vol. 1, (with C. Shaw), Aerial, Santa Cruz, 1982. MR 84m:58001 (P. D. F. Ion)
On Morphodynamics, SFX 2, Aerial, Santa Cruz, 1985.
Manifolds, Tensor Analysis, and Applications, Second Edition, (with J. Marsden and T. Ratiu), Addison-Wesley, Reading, 1988. MR 89f:58001
Complex Dynamics, SFX 3, Aerial, Santa Cruz, 1991.
Trialogues on the Edge of the West (with Terence McKenna and Rupert Sheldrake), Bear & Co, Santa Fe, NM, 1992.
A Visual Introduction to Dynamical Systems Theory for Psychology (with Fred Abraham and Chris Shaw), Aerial Press, Santa Cruz, CA. 1991.
Dynamics, The Geometry of Behavior (with C. Shaw), Second edition, Addison-Wesley, Reading MA. 1992.
Chaos, Gaia, Eros, Harper and Row, San Francisco, CA. October, 1994.
The Web Empowerment Book, (with Frank Jas and Willard Russell), TELOS/Springer-Verlag, New York, March 1995.
And these are books by Dr. Alex Kaivarainen:

Dynamic Behavior of Proteins in Aqueous Medium and Their Functions. Leningrad, Nauka, USSR, 1980
Solvent-Dependent Flexibility of Proteins and Principles of Their Function. D. Reidel Publishing Company, Dordrecht, Boston, Lancaster, 1985
Mesoscopic properties of matter and its interaction with light. Principles of self-organization in ice water and biosystems. University of Turku, Finland,1992
Dynamic Model of Wave-Particle Duality and Grand Unification. University of Joensuu, Phys. Dept. Joensuu, Finland, 1993
Hierarchic Concept of Matter and Field. Water, biosystems and elementary particles. New York, USA, 1995, pp. 485. ISBN: 0-9642557-0-7.
The second article (Alex Kaivarainen) is particularly interesting to me because he proposes a physics-based hierarchical microtubal mechanism for perception and memory. I'm a big fan of Roger Penrose who proposed a microtubal mechanism in Shadows of the Mind. On a prior thread, Physicist derided Penrose generally on the subject so I am interested in the models to the contrary to arrive at my own conclusion.

If you disagree with Kaivarainen then fine, but please give me more than just a hand waive.

The third link, International Institute of Biophysics has this to say of themselves:

There are worldwide about 40 scientific groups working on biophotons. The biggest association is the International Institute of Biophysics (IIB) e.V. in Neuss (Germany), founded for an interdisciplinary approach of the understanding and the investigation of living systems. 14 Institutes (Governmental Research Institutes and Universities) are connected in common research on:

Coherence in Biology
Biocommunication
Biophotonics

I’ve just started wading through their contents, but they appear to be more new age or Eastern philosophically and thus would run counter to the young earth creationist point of view.

With regard to Art Bell, UFO, Crop Circles and the ilk – that is not my bailiwick, and I have no opinion.

Electromagnetism is an undeniable force and thus, a significant subject in physics. I do not have any personal “tin foil” hat theories but I have noted some allegations concerning brain tumors and cancers:

Doctor Sues Cell Phone Makers Over Tumor Behind Right Ear

A neurologist in the United States is suing Motorola, the world's second largest mobile phone manufacturer, because he says that using a cell phone caused a malignant brain tumour.

Dr Christopher Newman, 41, has filed an $800m (£540m) lawsuit against Motorola and eight other telecommunications organisations.

The lawsuit, filed in Baltimore, accuses the companies of failing to tell users that cell phones produce high levels of radio frequency radiation, which can cause cancer and other adverse health effects. The malignant tumour was discovered in March 1998 behind Dr Newman's right ear.

His lawyer said that he used mobile phones at least several times a day between 1992 and 1998 for his work.

Cancer study may help Motorola suit 9/10/02

In what could bolster an $800 million lawsuit against Motorola and major cell phone carriers, a new study found a possible link between older cell phones and brain tumors. Although many studies have found no cancer risk from cell phone use, the research published in the latest European Journal of Cancer Prevention said long-term users of analog phones are at least 30% more likely than nonusers to develop brain tumors.

Newer digital phones emit less radiation than older analog models of the sort studied.

Judge rejects cancer link to mobiles 10/1/02

A US judge has thrown out the evidence filed against several mobile-phone firms in an $800m lawsuit that alleges the devices cause brain tumours.

The move clears the way for the dismissal of the suit against several manufacturers, including cell-phone giant Motorola, which was brought by American neurologist Christopher Newman…

Dr Newman's lawyers presented evidence from a Swedish researcher that suggested brain tumours were more likely to be found on the side of the head where patients held their mobile phone.

They also presented the judge with studies that showed that radiation damaged rats' DNA.

But US District Judge Catherine Blake ruled that the evidence was not generally accepted by scientists and that there was no proven link between cell phones and tumours…

Mr Angelos said he may appeal against the decision….

That happens to be the same location of the tumor they removed from my nephew a few years ago.

815 posted on 02/22/2003 2:25:29 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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Comment #816 Removed by Moderator

To: js1138
Thank you so much for your post!

Non-locality of memory has been known for decades. It is one of the reasons I believe artificial intelligence is beyond my lifetime, because no one knows how it works.

Indeed, non-locality of memory does not favor Crick's "Astonishing Hypothesis." I hadn't heard of the salamander experiments, so they were particularly interesting.

None of this argues for any non-physical property of the mind. Just because memories are spread out doesn't mean they aren't embodied.

Likewise, none of this argues against a non-physical property of the mind.

817 posted on 02/22/2003 2:30:13 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: js1138
Because the brain is 99.999 percent free of magnetic materials.

I recall reading somewhile ago of a frog being suspended in a very strong magnetic field. This was due to the diamagnetic properties of water. Presumably one could do the same with a human. That would be very cool!

818 posted on 02/22/2003 2:36:44 PM PST by edsheppa
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To: HiTech RedNeck
The brain isn't the mind any more than the piano is the concerto.

How about brain is to mind as player-piano is to concerto.

819 posted on 02/22/2003 2:43:14 PM PST by edsheppa
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To: betty boop; Anybody; jennyp
OOPS - TOO IMPATIENT WITH THAT EDITING - REWRITING A COUPLE PARAGRAPHS.
820 posted on 02/22/2003 2:58:52 PM PST by unspun ("Who do you say that I AM?")
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