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The "Threat" of Creationism, by Isaac Asimov
Internet ^ | 1984 | Isaac Asimov

Posted on 02/15/2003 4:18:25 PM PST by PatrickHenry

Scientists thought it was settled. The universe, they had decided, is about 20 billion years old, and Earth itself is 4.5 billion years old. Simple forms of life came into being more than three billion years ago, having formed spontaneously from nonliving matter. They grew more complex through slow evolutionary processes and the first hominid ancestors of humanity appeared more than four million years ago. Homo sapians itself—the present human species, people like you and me—has walked the earth for at least 50,000 years.

But apparently it isn't settled. There are Americans who believe that the earth is only about 6,000 years old; that human beings and all other species were brought into existence by a divine Creator as eternally separate variations of beings; and that there has been no evolutionary process.

They are creationists—they call themselves "scientific" creationists—and they are a growing power in the land, demanding that schools be forced to teach their views. State legislatures, mindful of the votes, are beginning to succumb to the pressure. In perhaps 15 states, bills have been introduced, putting forth the creationist point of view, and in others, strong movements are gaining momentum. In Arkansas, a law requiring that the teaching of creationism receive equal time was passed this spring and is scheduled to go into effect in September 1982, though the American Civil Liberties Union has filed suit on behalf of a group of clergymen, teachers, and parents to overturn it. And a California father named Kelly Segraves, the director of the Creation-Science Research Center, sued to have public-school science classes taught that there are other theories of creation besides evolution, and that one of them was the Biblical version. The suit came to trial in March, and the judge ruled that educators must distribute a policy statement to schools and textbook publishers explaining that the theory of evolution should not be seen as "the ultimate cause of origins." Even in New York, the Board of Education has delayed since January in making a final decision, expected this month [June 1981], on whether schools will be required to include the teaching of creationism in their curriculums.

The Rev. Jerry Fallwell, the head of the Moral Majority, who supports the creationist view from his television pulpit, claims that he has 17 million to 25 million viewers (though Arbitron places the figure at a much more modest 1.6 million). But there are 66 electronic ministries which have a total audience of about 20 million. And in parts of the country where the Fundamentalists predominate—the so called Bible Belt— creationists are in the majority.

They make up a fervid and dedicated group, convinced beyond argument of both their rightness and their righteousness. Faced with an apathetic and falsely secure majority, smaller groups have used intense pressure and forceful campaigning—as the creationists do—and have succeeded in disrupting and taking over whole societies.

Yet, though creationists seem to accept the literal truth of the Biblical story of creation, this does not mean that all religious people are creationists. There are millions of Catholics, Protestants, and Jews who think of the Bible as a source of spiritual truth and accept much of it as symbolically rather than literally true. They do not consider the Bible to be a textbook of science, even in intent, and have no problem teaching evolution in their secular institutions.

To those who are trained in science, creationism seems like a bad dream, a sudden reveling of a nightmare, a renewed march of an army of the night risen to challenge free thought and enlightenment.

The scientific evidence for the age of the earth and for the evolutionary development of life seems overwhelming to scientists. How can anyone question it? What are the arguments the creationists use? What is the "science" that makes their views "scientific"? Here are some of them:

• The argument from analogy.

A watch implies a watchmaker, say the creationists. If you were to find a beautifully intricate watch in the desert, from habitation, you would be sure that it had been fashioned by human hands and somehow left it there. It would pass the bounds of credibility that it had simply formed, spontaneously, from the sands of the desert.

By analogy, then, if you consider humanity, life, Earth, and the universe, all infinitely more intricate than a watch, you can believe far less easily that it "just happened." It, too, like the watch, must have been fashioned, but by more-than-human hands—in short by a divine Creator.

This argument seems unanswerable, and it has been used (even though not often explicitly expressed) ever since the dawn of consciousness. To have explained to prescientific human beings that the wind and the rain and the sun follow the laws of nature and do so blindly and without a guiding would have been utterly unconvincing to them. In fact, it might have well gotten you stoned to death as a blasphemer.

There are many aspects of the universe that still cannot be explained satisfactorily by science; but ignorance only implies ignorance that may someday be conquered. To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today.

In short, the complexity of the universe—and one's inability to explain it in full—is not in itself an argument for a Creator.

• The argument from general consent.

Some creationists point at that belief in a Creator is general among all peoples and all cultures. Surly this unanimous craving hints at a greater truth. There would be no unanimous belief in a lie.

General belief, however, is not really surprising. Nearly every people on earth that considers the existence of the world assumes it to have been created by a god or gods. And each group invents full details for the story. No two creation tales are alike. The Greeks, the Norsemen, the Japanese, the Hindus, the American Indians, and so on and so on all have their own creation myths, and all of these are recognized by Americans of Judeo-Christian heritage as "just myths."

The ancient Hebrews also had a creation tale—two of them, in fact. There is a primitive Adam-and-Eve-in-Paradise story, with man created first, then animals, then women. There is also a poetic tale of God fashioning the universe in six days, with animals preceding man, and man and woman created together.

These Hebrew myths are not inherently more credible than any of the others, but they are our myths. General consent, of course, proves nothing: There can be a unanimous belief in something that isn't so. The universal opinion over thousands of years that the earth was flat never flattened its spherical shape by one inch.

• The argument of belittlement.

Creationists frequently stress the fact that evolution is "only a theory," giving the impression that a theory is an idle guess. A scientist, one gathers, arising one morning with nothing particular to do, decided that perhaps the moon is made of Roquefort cheese and instantly advances the Roquefort-cheese theory.

A theory (as the word is used by scientists) is a detailed description of some facet of the universe's workings that is based on long observation and, where possible, experiment. It is the result of careful reasoning from these observations and experiments that has survived the critical study of scientists generally.

For example, we have the description of the cellular nature of living organisms (the "cell theory"); of objects attracting each other according to fixed rule (the "theory of gravitation"); of energy behaving in discrete bits (the "quantum theory"); of light traveling through a vacuum at a fixed measurable velocity (the "theory of relativity"), and so on.

All are theories; all are firmly founded; all are accepted as valid descriptions of this or that aspect of the universe. They are neither guesses nor speculations. And no theory is better founded, more closely examined, more critically argued and more thoroughly accepted, than the theory of evolution. If it is "only" a theory, that is all it has to be.

Creationism, on the other hand, is not a theory. There is no evidence, in the scientific sense, that supports it. Creationism, or at least the particular variety accepted by many Americans, is an expression of early Middle Eastern legend. It is fairly described as "only a myth."

• The argument of imperfection.

Creationists, in recent years, have stressed the "scientific" background of their beliefs. They point out that there are scientists who base their creationists beliefs on a careful study of geology, paleontology, and biology and produce "textbooks" that embody those beliefs.

Virtually the whole scientific corpus of creationism, however, consists of the pointing out of imperfections in the evolutionary view. The creationists insists, for example, that evolutionists cannot true transition states between species in the fossil evidence; that age determinations through radioactive breakdown are uncertain; that alternative interpretations of this or that piece of evidence are possible and so on.

Because the evolutionary view is not perfect and is not agreed upon by all scientists, creationists argue that evolution is false and that scientists, in supporting evolution, are basing their views on blind faith and dogmatism.

To an extent, the creationists are right here: The details of evolution are not perfectly known. Scientists have been adjusting and modifying Charles Darwin's suggestions since he advanced his theory of the origin of species through natural selection back in 1859. After all, much has been learned about the fossil record and physiology, microbiology, biochemistry, ethology, and various other branches of life science in the last 125 years, and it was to be expected that we can improve on Darwin. In fact, we have improved on him. Nor is the process finished. it can never be, as long as human beings continue to question and to strive for better answers.

The details of evolutionary theory are in dispute precisely because scientists are not devotees of blind faith and dogmatism. They do not accept even as great thinker as Darwin without question, nor do they accept any idea, new or old, without thorough argument. Even after accepting an idea, they stand ready to overrule it, if appropriate new evidence arrives. If, however, we grant that a theory is imperfect and details remain in dispute, does that disprove the theory as a whole?

Consider. I drive a car, and you drive a car. I do not know exactly how an engine works. Perhaps you do not either. And it may be that our hazy and approximate ideas of the workings of an automobile are in conflict. Must we then conclude from this disagreement that an automobile does not run, or that it does not exist? Or, if our senses force us to conclude that an automobile does exist and run, does that mean it is pulled by an invisible horses, since our engine theory is imperfect?

However much scientists argue their differing beliefs in details of evolutionary theory, or in the interpretation of the necessarily imperfect fossil record, they firmly accept the evolutionary process itself.

• The argument from distorted science.

Creationists have learned enough scientific terminology to use it in their attempts to disprove evolution. They do this in numerous ways, but the most common example, at least in the mail I receive is the repeated assertion that the second law of thermodynamics demonstrates the evolutionary process to be impossible.

In kindergarten terms, the second law of thermodynamics says that all spontaneous change is in the direction of increasing disorder—that is, in a "downhill" direction. There can be no spontaneous buildup of the complex from the simple, therefore, because that would be moving "uphill." According to the creationists argument, since, by the evolutionary process, complex forms of life evolve from simple forms, that process defies the second law, so creationism must be true.

Such an argument implies that this clearly visible fallacy is somehow invisible to scientists, who must therefore be flying in the face of the second law through sheer perversity. Scientists, however, do know about the second law and they are not blind. It's just that an argument based on kindergarten terms is suitable only for kindergartens.

To lift the argument a notch above the kindergarten level, the second law of thermodynamics applies to a "closed system"—that is, to a system that does not gain energy from without, or lose energy to the outside. The only truly closed system we know of is the universe as a whole.

Within a closed system, there are subsystems that can gain complexity spontaneously, provided there is a greater loss of complexity in another interlocking subsystem. The overall change then is a complexity loss in a line with the dictates of the second law.

Evolution can proceed and build up the complex from the simple, thus moving uphill, without violating the second law, as long as another interlocking part of the system — the sun, which delivers energy to the earth continually — moves downhill (as it does) at a much faster rate than evolution moves uphill. If the sun were to cease shining, evolution would stop and so, eventually, would life.

Unfortunately, the second law is a subtle concept which most people are not accustomed to dealing with, and it is not easy to see the fallacy in the creationists distortion.

There are many other "scientific" arguments used by creationists, some taking quite cleaver advantage of present areas of dispute in evolutionary theory, but every one of then is as disingenuous as the second-law argument.

The "scientific" arguments are organized into special creationist textbooks, which have all the surface appearance of the real thing, and which school systems are being heavily pressured to accept. They are written by people who have not made any mark as scientists, and, while they discuss geology, paleontology and biology with correct scientific terminology, they are devoted almost entirely to raising doubts over the legitimacy of the evidence and reasoning underlying evolutionary thinking on the assumption that this leaves creationism as the only possible alternative.

Evidence actually in favor of creationism is not presented, of course, because none exist other than the word of the Bible, which it is current creationist strategy not to use.

• The argument from irrelevance.

Some creationists putt all matters of scientific evidence to one side and consider all such things irrelevant. The Creator, they say, brought life and the earth and the entire universe into being 6,000 years ago or so, complete with all the evidence for eons-long evolutionary development. The fossil record, the decaying radio activity, the receding galaxies were all created as they are, and the evidence they present is an illusion.

Of course, this argument is itself irrelevant, for it can be neither proved nor disproved. it is not an argument, actually, but a statement. I can say that the entire universe was created two minutes age, complete with all its history books describing a nonexistent past in detail, and with every living person equipped with a full memory; you, for instance, in the process of reading this article in midstream with a memory of what you had read in the beginning—which you had not really read.

What kind of Creator would produce a universe containing so intricate an illusion? It would mean that the Creator formed a universe that contained human beings whom He had endowed with the faculty of curiosity and the ability to reason. He supplied those human beings with an enormous amount of subtle and cleverly consistent evidence designed to mislead them and cause them to be convinced that the universe was created 20 billion years ago and developed by evolutionary processes that include the creation and the development of life on Earth. Why?

Does the Creator take pleasure in fooling us? Does it amuse Him to watch us go wrong? Is it part of a test to see if human beings will deny their senses and their reason in order to cling to myth? Can it be that the Creator is a cruel and malicious prankster, with a vicious and adolescent sense of humor?

• The argument from authority.

The Bible says that God created the world in six days, and the Bible is the inspired word of God. To the average creationist this is all that counts. All other arguments are merely a tedious way of countering the propaganda of all those wicked humanists, agnostics, an atheists who are not satisfied with the clear word of the Lord.

The creationist leaders do not actually use that argument because that would make their argument a religious one, and they would not be able to use it in fighting a secular school system. They have to borrow the clothing of science, no matter how badly it fits, and call themselves "scientific" creationists. They also speak only of the "Creator," and never mentioned that this Creator is the God of the Bible.

We cannot, however, take this sheep's clothing seriously. However much the creationist leaders might hammer away at in their "scientific" and "philosophical" points, they would be helpless and a laughing-stock if that were all they had.

It is religion that recruits their squadrons. Tens of millions of Americans, who neither know nor understand the actual arguments for or even against evolution, march in the army of the night with their Bibles held high. And they are a strong and frightening force, impervious to, and immunized against, the feeble lance of mere reason.

Even if I am right and the evolutionists' case is very strong, have not creationists, whatever the emptiness of their case, a right to be heard? if their case is empty, isn't it perfectly safe to discuss it since the emptiness would then be apparent? Why, then are evolutionists so reluctant to have creationism taught in the public schools on an equal basis with evolutionary theory? can it be that the evolutionists are not as confident of their case as they pretend. Are they afraid to allow youngsters a clear choice?

First, the creationists are somewhat less than honest in their demand for equal time. It is not their views that are repressed: schools are by no means the only place in which the dispute between creationism and evolutionary theory is played out. There are churches, for instance, which are a much more serious influence on most Americans than the schools are. To be sure, many churches are quite liberal, have made their peace with science and find it easy to live with scientific advance — even with evolution. But many of the less modish and citified churches are bastions of creationism.

The influence of the church is naturally felt in the home, in the newspapers, and in all of surrounding society. It makes itself felt in the nation as a whole, even in religiously liberal areas, in thousands of subtle ways: in the nature of holiday observance, in expressions of patriotic fervor, even in total irrelevancies. In 1968, for example, a team of astronomers circling the moon were instructed to read the first few verses of Genesis as though NASA felt it had to placate the public lest they rage against the violation of the firmament. At the present time, even the current President of the United States has expressed his creationist sympathies.

It is only in school that American youngsters in general are ever likely to hear any reasoned exposition of the evolutionary viewpiont. They might find such a viewpoint in books, magazines, newspapers, or even, on occasion, on television. But church and family can easily censor printed matter or television. Only the school is beyond their control.

But only just barely beyond. Even though schools are now allowed to teach evolution, teachers are beginning to be apologetic about it, knowing full well their jobs are at the mercy of school boards upon which creationists are a stronger and stronger influence.

Then, too, in schools, students are not required to believe what they learn about evolution—merely to parrot it back on test. If they fail to do so, their punishment is nothing more than the loss of a few points on a test or two.

In the creationist churches, however, the congregation is required to believe. Impressionable youngsters, taught that they will go to hell if they listen to the evolutionary doctrine, are not likely to listen in comfort or to believe if they do. Therefore, creationists, who control the church and the society they live in and to face the public-school as the only place where evolution is even briefly mentioned in a possible favorable way, find they cannot stand even so minuscule a competition and demand "equal time."

Do you suppose their devotion to "fairness" is such that they will give equal time to evolution in their churches?

Second, the real danger is the manner in which creationists want threir "equal time." In the scientific world, there is free and open competition of ideas, and even a scientist whose suggestions are not accepted is nevertheless free to continue to argue his case. In this free and open competition of ideas, creationism has clearly lost. It has been losing, in fact, since the time of Copernicus four and a half centuries ago. But creationism, placing myth above reason, refused to accept the decision and are now calling on the government to force their views on the schools in lieu of the free expression of ideas. Teachers must be forced to present creationism as though it had equal intellectual respectability with evolutionary doctrine.

What a precedent this sets.

If the government can mobilize its policemen and its prisons to make certain that teachers give creationism equal time, they can next use force to make sure that teachers declare creationism the victor so that evolution will be evicted from the classroom altogether. We will have established ground work, in other words, for legally enforced ignorance and for totalitarian thought control. And what if the creationists win? They might, you know, for there are millions who, faced with a choice between science and their interpretation of the Bible, will choose the Bible and reject science, regardless of the evidence.

This is not entirely because of the traditional and unthinking reverence for the literal words of the Bible; there is also a pervasive uneasiness—even an actual fear—of science that will drive even those who care little for fundamentalism into the arms of the creationists. For one thing, science is uncertain. Theories are subject to revision; observations are open to a variety of interpretations, and scientists quarrel among themselves. This is disillusioning for those untrained in the scientific method, who thus turn to the rigid certainty of the Bible instead. There is something comfortable about a view that allows for no deviation and that spares you the painful necessity of having to think.

Second, science is complex and chilling. The mathematical language of science is understood by very few. The vistas it presents are scary—an enormous universe ruled by chance and impersonal rules, empty and uncaring, ungraspable and vertiginous. How comfortable to turn instead to a small world, only a few thousand years old, and under God's personal and immediate care; a world in which you are his particular concern and where He will not consign you to hell if you are careful to follow every word of the Bible as interpreted for you by your television preacher.

Third, science is dangerous. There is no question but that poison gas, genetic engineering, and nuclear weapons and power stations are terrifying. It may be that civilization is falling apart and the world we know is coming to an end. In that case, why not turn to religion and look forward to the Day of Judgment, in which you and your fellow believers will be lifted into eternal bliss and have the added joy of watching the scoffers and disbelievers writhe forever in torment.

So why might they not win?

There are numerous cases of societies in which the armies of the night have ridden triumphantly over minorities in order to establish a powerful orthodoxy which dictates official thought. Invariably, the triumphant ride is toward long-range disaster. Spain dominated Europe and the world in the 16th century, but in Spain orthodoxy came first, and all divergence of opinion was ruthlessly suppressed. The result was that Spain settled back into blankness and did not share in the scientific, technological and commercial ferment that bubbled up in other nations of Western Europe. Spain remained an intellectual backwater for centuries. In the late 17th century, France in the name of orthodoxy revoked the Edict of Nantes and drove out many thousands of Huguenots, who added their intellectual vigor to lands of refuge such as Great Britain, the Netherlands, and Prussia, while France was permanently weakened.

In more recent times, Germany hounded out the Jewish scientists of Europe. They arrived in the United States and contributed immeasurably to scientific advancement here, while Germany lost so heavily that there is no telling how long it will take it to regain its former scientific eminence. The Soviet Union, in its fascination with Lysenko, destroyed its geneticists, and set back its biological sciences for decades. China, during the Cultural Revolution, turned against Western science and is still laboring to overcome the devastation that resulted.

As we now, with all these examples before us, to ride backward into the past under the same tattered banner of orthodoxy? With creationism in the saddle, American science will wither. We will raise a generation of ignoramuses ill-equipped to run the industry of tomorrow, much less to generate the new advances of the days after tomorrow.

We will inevitably recede into the backwater of civilization, and those nations that retain opened scientific thought will take over the leadership of the world and the cutting edge of human advancement. I don't suppose that the creationists really plan the decline of the United States, but their loudly expressed patriotism is as simpleminded as their "science." If they succeed, they will, in their folly, achieve the opposite of what they say they wish.

( Isaac Asimov, "The 'Threat' of Creationism," New York Times Magazine, June 14, 1981; from Science and Creationism, Ashley Montagu, ed., New York: Oxford University Press, 1984, pp. 182-193. )


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: creation; creationism; crevolist; darwin; evolution; evolutionism; intelligentdesign
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To: Rachumlakenschlaff
If you allow a theory to rule out observations then you most certainly are not practicing science.

Are you trying to prove yourself incapable to hold a conversation? Because unless I misunderstand you, you have succeeded admirably. Mercury's orbit deviates in a way not allowed by Newton's theory of gravity. This observation proved Newton wrong.

The argument from information theory is not based on simply finding flaws with evolution, but on demonstrating that evolution is inconsistent with information theory.

Perhaps you are misapplying information theory. Please define "information."

It is also possible to prove a theory incorrect by contraindicating experimental evidence. In fact, it is generally accepted that this is a requirement of any theory: falsifiability. This is one of the major valid criticisms of evolution. You cannot prove a theory without supporting experimental evidence. It is not sufficient to simply observe.

Every single fossil is a potential falsification of evolution. I covered this in my last post. I provided a specific observation that would falsify evolution. You even quoted me in your response. Then you forge right ahead with this "evolution is not falsifiable" nonsense. Why is that? While you're at it, what observation would falsify the Intelligent Design hypothesis?

1,421 posted on 03/06/2003 1:07:57 PM PST by Condorman ("Evolution: The Fossils Say No!" -- Gish "Gish is an idiot." -- Fossils)
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To: Rachumlakenschlaff
I don't have access to the original paper

Really? It took me 37 seconds to find it. Next time, try whining as your SECOND step.

They then do some sort of statistical analysis (presumably along the lines of determining how fast the presumed duplicated gene evolved into a useful form - but who knows?) which the synopsis doesn't specify but the claim is made that the analysis is evidence of positive selection.

And you accuse ME of not reading the article carefully? Based on your performance so far I have grave reservations about your ability to understand the analysis methodology even if you did have access to it. But let's look at the actual passages from the original thread. I have emphasized the relevant portions. Pay attention, this is likely new information to you:

Then further down, this point is reiterated:

Now what were you babbling about, again?

1,422 posted on 03/06/2003 1:38:01 PM PST by Condorman (Q: Didja hear the one about the statistician? A: Probably.)
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To: Nebullis
Nebulis wrote:
The proteins were changed by changes in the gene. Also, determination of selection is based on the ratio between neutral changes and changes that result in effective differences.

I suspect it matters to you because you spent several posts deriding the study. It matters to us because the effort you invest in dismissing evolution, a foundational theory of science, needs to be based on scientific principles and genuine research. Your argument against the study in the article makes it obvious that you are ignorant of the elementary correspondence between a gene and a protein. The rest of your posts make it clear that you don't have a clue about much of science in general.


Here we go with more personal attacks.Anyone out there care to count up the number of personal attacks made against me by the evolutionists and those that I've made? I've been trying to engage in a meaningful discussion but there are those who obviously can't handle it.

If your'e going to claim that my "argument against the study in the article makes it obvious that you are ignorant of the elementary correspondence between a gene and a protein", then quote the errors in my argument and refute them.

If you're going to claim that I "don't have a clue about much of science in general", then get specific.

If these discussions could be constrained to what people actually say instead of what other people imagine they might think, and if we could refrain from personal attacks then maybe, just maybe, there would be some value in it all. I would respectfully ask those who cannot control themselves when they respond to not respond. I've been on this forum less than a week, and am thoroughly unimpressed with the lack of civility. Is the Free Republic nothing more than a place where people heap insults upon each other?
1,423 posted on 03/06/2003 1:51:23 PM PST by Rachumlakenschlaff
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To: Condorman
Condorman, with utmost civility, kindly said:

Next time, try whining as your SECOND step.
Pay attention, this is likely new information to you.
Now what were you babbling about, again?


Sorry, personal attacks and all embedded "information" are summarily being dismissed as a waste of everyone's time.
1,424 posted on 03/06/2003 2:06:49 PM PST by Rachumlakenschlaff
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To: Rachumlakenschlaff
What would be the point? You have demonstrated your unwillingness to debate my proposition in favor of attempting to demean all those who disagree with you.

Repeatedly invited to make a case of your own, you have declined. Makes it look pretty empty when you simply substitute "evolution" for "creation" to turn my earlier statement around:

There is no evolution science. There is no abiogenesis science. There is no content. You can't beat something with nothing.
I've got all the science there is. You've got "That's all conjectural!"
1,425 posted on 03/06/2003 2:07:04 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
Repeatedly invited to make a case of your own, you have declined.

Nope. I've been trying to vade through all the abuse. Stay tuned.
1,426 posted on 03/06/2003 2:31:07 PM PST by Rachumlakenschlaff
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To: Rachumlakenschlaff
Sorry, personal attacks and all embedded "information" are summarily being dismissed as a waste of everyone's time.

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA!

Allow me to note that you have yet to make a point here.

1,427 posted on 03/06/2003 2:32:51 PM PST by balrog666 (When in doubt, tell the truth. - Mark Twain)
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To: balrog666
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA! Placemarker.
1,428 posted on 03/06/2003 2:48:33 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas)
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To: js1138
Hello js1138,

So what exactly is ID trying to discover, and what lines of research would you suggest to achieve these discoveries? What kind of experiments would you like to see done?

I will repost a short analogy that will let you know what our position is.

(Two men become stranded on a remote island. As they explore the island they come upon a sandcastle with towers, buttresses and a drawbridge. The design of the castle is amazingly intricate.

One man comments, "It is amazing what time and the ocean can create. The small rocks and seashells on the shore must have got caught in eddies and swirled around and chiseled out that castle. There were a few palm leaves floating by to scribed out the little lines that look like bricks. We are alone and there is no need to consider anything else."

The other man looked at him incredulously and said, "No, that castle was engineered by another intelligent being, we are not alone.")

If you consider a spider, it has oil glands in its legs that enable it to navigate its sticky web. The web is sticky which enables other bugs to become trapped in the web. It becomes a stretch to think that a spider developed oil glands for another purpose first, and then it developed stickiness to its web. Or vice versa.

There are so many of these types of these "fine-tuned developments" that when one considers the mathematical probabilities of all of the biological "just so happens" it becomes absurd.

In short, we believe the evidence already gathered absolutely points to a Creator. As in the above analogy, the atheist strains to take the available possibilities to support his position.

But the intricacy of the design makes the atheists efforts countless. Therefore we are completely confident that any discoveries, by whoever feels compelled to do the research, can only further convince people that there is a God. Only the truly stubborn have and will continue to strive and stretch the evidence to explain away the Creator.

Thank you for your interest. Hope this helps. I am also curious what you think might refute this.

1,429 posted on 03/06/2003 3:22:50 PM PST by bondserv
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To: bondserv
So what exactly is ID trying to discover, and what lines of research would you suggest to achieve these discoveries? What kind of experiments would you like to see done?

1,430 posted on 03/06/2003 4:07:48 PM PST by js1138
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To: bondserv
You are describing a belief system that cannot be verified. If ID is to be considered a science, it needs to propose a system of research to support its claims. When traditional science encouteres extraordinary claims it sets out to find evidence that supports or refutes the claims. I cannot think of any claims being made by ID that are not being investigated by evolutionists.
1,431 posted on 03/06/2003 4:13:41 PM PST by js1138
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To: Rachumlakenschlaff

Written in response to you whining about not having access to the original paper. I found the original paper in 37 seconds. I provided you with a link.

Written in response to your twice-posted misinterpretation of the mention of statistical analysis to determine whether selection or neutral drift influenced modification of a duplicate gene in the leaf-eating monkey article. I included the actual passages and a link for verification.

Also posted in response to your complaints and mischaracterization about the aforementioned statistical analysis.

In the meantime, you seem to have skipped over the substance. To wit:

Why did you quote and then ignore a method to falsify the theory of evolution?
Define information.
What observation would falsify the Intelligent Design hypothesis?
What is the relationship between genes and the proteins they encode?
Support your statement to the effect that scientific theories do not attempt to rule out specific observations.

1,432 posted on 03/06/2003 4:15:38 PM PST by Condorman
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To: bondserv
Permit me to step in here for a few comments:

In short, we believe the evidence already gathered absolutely points to a Creator. As in the above analogy, the atheist strains to take the available possibilities to support his position.

The trend is most definitely against you. Over the past few thousand years, the "evidence already gathered" started out being very sparse, and it left all kinds of unexplained phenomena -- disease, fertility, lightning, the tides, the motion of the planets, etc. As time goes by, and as curious people seek to understand nature, something funny happens. One by one, the ancient mysteries have yielded to rational investigation. The process isn't complete, and there are still unsolved problems, which may in due course yield to rational investigation.

But the intricacy of the design makes the atheists efforts countless. Therefore we are completely confident that any discoveries, by whoever feels compelled to do the research, can only further convince people that there is a God.

A few problems here. First, you assume that all curious people are athiests. As has been pointed out quite often, many scientists are Christians. Second, the "intricacy of the design" is not an insurmountable problem. Consider the staggering problems already solved -- the process that powers the sun, the distance to the stars, the motions of the planets, the composition of matter, etc. Admit it, those were difficult problems. There is absolutely no reason for you to declare that the problems which stump you today will be unsolvable for all time. Finally, if some problems turn out to be very difficult indeed, that still doesn't prove your case.

Only the truly stubborn have and will continue to strive and stretch the evidence to explain away the Creator.

You mean, only the curious will continue to try to understand nature. It has always been thus. Perhaps it's God's will.

1,433 posted on 03/06/2003 4:23:59 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas)
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To: Rachumlakenschlaff
I've been on this forum less than a week

I see you have been instructed to do some homework this might help

1,434 posted on 03/06/2003 4:58:11 PM PST by cornelis (If you think you've cornered Nebullis, you are dabbling in magic.)
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To: unspun
Even if evolution theory were tight, from A to Z, it does nothing to God, who would have devised it. So, do you have an argument against God? You cannot disprove Him, though stacks of various kinds of evidence exist for Him.

Exactly right. Many of us believe in God, as a matter of faith, and also believe that the weight of the scientific evidence supports evolution. Many (no, not all, but a lot of the anti-evolution people who post on these threads) seem to reject evolution less because of the scientific evidence than because they are afraid that it undermines faith in God. Such people are, IMHO, misguided (as are, IMHO, those who trumpet evolution as a way to reject God).

1,435 posted on 03/06/2003 5:21:19 PM PST by Lurking Libertarian (Non sub homine, sed sub Deo et lege)
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To: PatrickHenry
Hello Pat,

Good to here from you again.

Just to clarify, I wasn't implying that only atheists are doing the research, my point was it doesn't matter that atheists are doing some or most of the research. Fortunately science has a way of only satisfying itself with the truth.

The truth is something we are very interested in, and I would submit that we must be rigorously honest with the facts in order to be intellectually honest. We do not see any "problems" as you put it, we only seek to be enlightened by the truths of the research.

There is nothing to prove, only things to be discovered!

Hope you are well!
1,436 posted on 03/06/2003 6:03:42 PM PST by bondserv
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To: PatrickHenry; balrog666; Condorman
You certainly did a good job of confirming Rachumlakenschlaff's insight about yourselves.
1,437 posted on 03/06/2003 7:41:57 PM PST by unspun ("Inalienable right to own hash, PCP, ricin, C4, smallpox & plutonium." - TOTALIBERTARIAN)
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To: Lurking Libertarian
Many (no, not all, but a lot of the anti-evolution people who post on these threads) seem to reject evolution less because of the scientific evidence than because they are afraid that it undermines faith in God.

Do you suppose that this could be in significant part, a result of observing the predominant attitudes and purposes of the most vocal evolutionists?

1,438 posted on 03/06/2003 7:47:27 PM PST by unspun ("Inalienable right to own hash, PCP, ricin, C4, smallpox & plutonium." - TOTALIBERTARIAN)
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To: js1138
How can complexity be oblivious?

Darwin was quite unaware of the sophisticated coding that is embedded in DNA. He was also unaware of the magnificance of the living cell, as our modern technology enables us to know.

Not to belabor the point:


Recent research into the structure and workings of genes and DNA has revealed incredible evidence of God's wonderful design. Dr. Jerry Bergman, professor of science at Northwest College, Archibold (Ohio) We have excerpted portions of his report for this article.

Cell Replication

The details of cell replication are too complex to be described in detail here. A simplified outline is given below to illustrate the incredible process involved:

1. Replication involves the synthesis of an exact copy of the cell's DNA.

2. An initiator protein must locate the correct place in the strand to begin copying.

3. The initiator protein guides an "unzipper" protein (helicase) to separate the strand, forming a fork area. This unwinding process involves speeds estimated at approximately 8000 rpm, all done without tangling the DNA strand!

4. The DNA duplex kinks back on itself as it unwinds. To relieve the twisting pressure, an "untwister" enzyme (topo-isomerase) systematically cuts and repairs the coil.

5. Working only on flat, untwisted sections of the DNA, enzymes go to work copying the strand. (Two complete DNA pairs are synthesized, each containing one old and one new strand.)

6. A stitcher repair protein (DNA ligases) connects nucleotides together into one continuous strand.

Read and Write

The process described above is only a small part of the story. While the unwinding and rewinding of the DNA takes place, an equally sophisticated process of reading the DNA code and "writing" new strands occurs. The process involves the production and use of messenger RNA. Again, a simplified process description:

1. Messenger RNA is made from DNA by an enzyme (RNA polymerase).

2. A small section of DNA unzips, revealing the actual message (called the sense strand) and the template (the anti-sense strand).

3. A copy is made of the gene of interest only, producing a relatively short RNA segment.

4. The knots and kinks in the DNA provide crucial topological stop-and-go signals for the enzymes.

5. After messenger RNA is made, the DNA duplex is zipped back up.

Adding to the complexity and sophistication of design, the genetic code is read in blocks of three bases (out of the four possible bases mentioned earlier) that are non-overlapping.

Moreover, the triplicate code used is "degenerate," meaning that multiple combinations can often code for the same amino acid-this provides a built-in error correction mechanism. (One can't help but contrast the sophistication involved with the far simpler read/write processes used in modern computers.)

A Common Software House

All living things use DNA and RNA to build life from four simple bases. The process described above is common to all creatures from simple bacteria all the way to humans.

Evolutionists point to this as evidence for their theory but the new discoveries of the complexity of the process, and the fact that bacterial ribosomes are so similar to those in humans, is strong evidence against evolution. The complexities of cell replication must have been present at the beginning of life.

A simple explanation for the similarities of the basic building blocks can be found if one realizes that all life originates from a single "software house." He is awesome indeed!

Click here for the entire article: Link

1,439 posted on 03/06/2003 10:35:34 PM PST by bondserv
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To: js1138
See

1436

There is nothing to prove, only things to be discovered!

1,440 posted on 03/06/2003 10:49:40 PM PST by bondserv
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