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The "Threat" of Creationism, by Isaac Asimov
Internet ^ | 1984 | Isaac Asimov

Posted on 02/15/2003 4:18:25 PM PST by PatrickHenry

Scientists thought it was settled. The universe, they had decided, is about 20 billion years old, and Earth itself is 4.5 billion years old. Simple forms of life came into being more than three billion years ago, having formed spontaneously from nonliving matter. They grew more complex through slow evolutionary processes and the first hominid ancestors of humanity appeared more than four million years ago. Homo sapians itself—the present human species, people like you and me—has walked the earth for at least 50,000 years.

But apparently it isn't settled. There are Americans who believe that the earth is only about 6,000 years old; that human beings and all other species were brought into existence by a divine Creator as eternally separate variations of beings; and that there has been no evolutionary process.

They are creationists—they call themselves "scientific" creationists—and they are a growing power in the land, demanding that schools be forced to teach their views. State legislatures, mindful of the votes, are beginning to succumb to the pressure. In perhaps 15 states, bills have been introduced, putting forth the creationist point of view, and in others, strong movements are gaining momentum. In Arkansas, a law requiring that the teaching of creationism receive equal time was passed this spring and is scheduled to go into effect in September 1982, though the American Civil Liberties Union has filed suit on behalf of a group of clergymen, teachers, and parents to overturn it. And a California father named Kelly Segraves, the director of the Creation-Science Research Center, sued to have public-school science classes taught that there are other theories of creation besides evolution, and that one of them was the Biblical version. The suit came to trial in March, and the judge ruled that educators must distribute a policy statement to schools and textbook publishers explaining that the theory of evolution should not be seen as "the ultimate cause of origins." Even in New York, the Board of Education has delayed since January in making a final decision, expected this month [June 1981], on whether schools will be required to include the teaching of creationism in their curriculums.

The Rev. Jerry Fallwell, the head of the Moral Majority, who supports the creationist view from his television pulpit, claims that he has 17 million to 25 million viewers (though Arbitron places the figure at a much more modest 1.6 million). But there are 66 electronic ministries which have a total audience of about 20 million. And in parts of the country where the Fundamentalists predominate—the so called Bible Belt— creationists are in the majority.

They make up a fervid and dedicated group, convinced beyond argument of both their rightness and their righteousness. Faced with an apathetic and falsely secure majority, smaller groups have used intense pressure and forceful campaigning—as the creationists do—and have succeeded in disrupting and taking over whole societies.

Yet, though creationists seem to accept the literal truth of the Biblical story of creation, this does not mean that all religious people are creationists. There are millions of Catholics, Protestants, and Jews who think of the Bible as a source of spiritual truth and accept much of it as symbolically rather than literally true. They do not consider the Bible to be a textbook of science, even in intent, and have no problem teaching evolution in their secular institutions.

To those who are trained in science, creationism seems like a bad dream, a sudden reveling of a nightmare, a renewed march of an army of the night risen to challenge free thought and enlightenment.

The scientific evidence for the age of the earth and for the evolutionary development of life seems overwhelming to scientists. How can anyone question it? What are the arguments the creationists use? What is the "science" that makes their views "scientific"? Here are some of them:

• The argument from analogy.

A watch implies a watchmaker, say the creationists. If you were to find a beautifully intricate watch in the desert, from habitation, you would be sure that it had been fashioned by human hands and somehow left it there. It would pass the bounds of credibility that it had simply formed, spontaneously, from the sands of the desert.

By analogy, then, if you consider humanity, life, Earth, and the universe, all infinitely more intricate than a watch, you can believe far less easily that it "just happened." It, too, like the watch, must have been fashioned, but by more-than-human hands—in short by a divine Creator.

This argument seems unanswerable, and it has been used (even though not often explicitly expressed) ever since the dawn of consciousness. To have explained to prescientific human beings that the wind and the rain and the sun follow the laws of nature and do so blindly and without a guiding would have been utterly unconvincing to them. In fact, it might have well gotten you stoned to death as a blasphemer.

There are many aspects of the universe that still cannot be explained satisfactorily by science; but ignorance only implies ignorance that may someday be conquered. To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today.

In short, the complexity of the universe—and one's inability to explain it in full—is not in itself an argument for a Creator.

• The argument from general consent.

Some creationists point at that belief in a Creator is general among all peoples and all cultures. Surly this unanimous craving hints at a greater truth. There would be no unanimous belief in a lie.

General belief, however, is not really surprising. Nearly every people on earth that considers the existence of the world assumes it to have been created by a god or gods. And each group invents full details for the story. No two creation tales are alike. The Greeks, the Norsemen, the Japanese, the Hindus, the American Indians, and so on and so on all have their own creation myths, and all of these are recognized by Americans of Judeo-Christian heritage as "just myths."

The ancient Hebrews also had a creation tale—two of them, in fact. There is a primitive Adam-and-Eve-in-Paradise story, with man created first, then animals, then women. There is also a poetic tale of God fashioning the universe in six days, with animals preceding man, and man and woman created together.

These Hebrew myths are not inherently more credible than any of the others, but they are our myths. General consent, of course, proves nothing: There can be a unanimous belief in something that isn't so. The universal opinion over thousands of years that the earth was flat never flattened its spherical shape by one inch.

• The argument of belittlement.

Creationists frequently stress the fact that evolution is "only a theory," giving the impression that a theory is an idle guess. A scientist, one gathers, arising one morning with nothing particular to do, decided that perhaps the moon is made of Roquefort cheese and instantly advances the Roquefort-cheese theory.

A theory (as the word is used by scientists) is a detailed description of some facet of the universe's workings that is based on long observation and, where possible, experiment. It is the result of careful reasoning from these observations and experiments that has survived the critical study of scientists generally.

For example, we have the description of the cellular nature of living organisms (the "cell theory"); of objects attracting each other according to fixed rule (the "theory of gravitation"); of energy behaving in discrete bits (the "quantum theory"); of light traveling through a vacuum at a fixed measurable velocity (the "theory of relativity"), and so on.

All are theories; all are firmly founded; all are accepted as valid descriptions of this or that aspect of the universe. They are neither guesses nor speculations. And no theory is better founded, more closely examined, more critically argued and more thoroughly accepted, than the theory of evolution. If it is "only" a theory, that is all it has to be.

Creationism, on the other hand, is not a theory. There is no evidence, in the scientific sense, that supports it. Creationism, or at least the particular variety accepted by many Americans, is an expression of early Middle Eastern legend. It is fairly described as "only a myth."

• The argument of imperfection.

Creationists, in recent years, have stressed the "scientific" background of their beliefs. They point out that there are scientists who base their creationists beliefs on a careful study of geology, paleontology, and biology and produce "textbooks" that embody those beliefs.

Virtually the whole scientific corpus of creationism, however, consists of the pointing out of imperfections in the evolutionary view. The creationists insists, for example, that evolutionists cannot true transition states between species in the fossil evidence; that age determinations through radioactive breakdown are uncertain; that alternative interpretations of this or that piece of evidence are possible and so on.

Because the evolutionary view is not perfect and is not agreed upon by all scientists, creationists argue that evolution is false and that scientists, in supporting evolution, are basing their views on blind faith and dogmatism.

To an extent, the creationists are right here: The details of evolution are not perfectly known. Scientists have been adjusting and modifying Charles Darwin's suggestions since he advanced his theory of the origin of species through natural selection back in 1859. After all, much has been learned about the fossil record and physiology, microbiology, biochemistry, ethology, and various other branches of life science in the last 125 years, and it was to be expected that we can improve on Darwin. In fact, we have improved on him. Nor is the process finished. it can never be, as long as human beings continue to question and to strive for better answers.

The details of evolutionary theory are in dispute precisely because scientists are not devotees of blind faith and dogmatism. They do not accept even as great thinker as Darwin without question, nor do they accept any idea, new or old, without thorough argument. Even after accepting an idea, they stand ready to overrule it, if appropriate new evidence arrives. If, however, we grant that a theory is imperfect and details remain in dispute, does that disprove the theory as a whole?

Consider. I drive a car, and you drive a car. I do not know exactly how an engine works. Perhaps you do not either. And it may be that our hazy and approximate ideas of the workings of an automobile are in conflict. Must we then conclude from this disagreement that an automobile does not run, or that it does not exist? Or, if our senses force us to conclude that an automobile does exist and run, does that mean it is pulled by an invisible horses, since our engine theory is imperfect?

However much scientists argue their differing beliefs in details of evolutionary theory, or in the interpretation of the necessarily imperfect fossil record, they firmly accept the evolutionary process itself.

• The argument from distorted science.

Creationists have learned enough scientific terminology to use it in their attempts to disprove evolution. They do this in numerous ways, but the most common example, at least in the mail I receive is the repeated assertion that the second law of thermodynamics demonstrates the evolutionary process to be impossible.

In kindergarten terms, the second law of thermodynamics says that all spontaneous change is in the direction of increasing disorder—that is, in a "downhill" direction. There can be no spontaneous buildup of the complex from the simple, therefore, because that would be moving "uphill." According to the creationists argument, since, by the evolutionary process, complex forms of life evolve from simple forms, that process defies the second law, so creationism must be true.

Such an argument implies that this clearly visible fallacy is somehow invisible to scientists, who must therefore be flying in the face of the second law through sheer perversity. Scientists, however, do know about the second law and they are not blind. It's just that an argument based on kindergarten terms is suitable only for kindergartens.

To lift the argument a notch above the kindergarten level, the second law of thermodynamics applies to a "closed system"—that is, to a system that does not gain energy from without, or lose energy to the outside. The only truly closed system we know of is the universe as a whole.

Within a closed system, there are subsystems that can gain complexity spontaneously, provided there is a greater loss of complexity in another interlocking subsystem. The overall change then is a complexity loss in a line with the dictates of the second law.

Evolution can proceed and build up the complex from the simple, thus moving uphill, without violating the second law, as long as another interlocking part of the system — the sun, which delivers energy to the earth continually — moves downhill (as it does) at a much faster rate than evolution moves uphill. If the sun were to cease shining, evolution would stop and so, eventually, would life.

Unfortunately, the second law is a subtle concept which most people are not accustomed to dealing with, and it is not easy to see the fallacy in the creationists distortion.

There are many other "scientific" arguments used by creationists, some taking quite cleaver advantage of present areas of dispute in evolutionary theory, but every one of then is as disingenuous as the second-law argument.

The "scientific" arguments are organized into special creationist textbooks, which have all the surface appearance of the real thing, and which school systems are being heavily pressured to accept. They are written by people who have not made any mark as scientists, and, while they discuss geology, paleontology and biology with correct scientific terminology, they are devoted almost entirely to raising doubts over the legitimacy of the evidence and reasoning underlying evolutionary thinking on the assumption that this leaves creationism as the only possible alternative.

Evidence actually in favor of creationism is not presented, of course, because none exist other than the word of the Bible, which it is current creationist strategy not to use.

• The argument from irrelevance.

Some creationists putt all matters of scientific evidence to one side and consider all such things irrelevant. The Creator, they say, brought life and the earth and the entire universe into being 6,000 years ago or so, complete with all the evidence for eons-long evolutionary development. The fossil record, the decaying radio activity, the receding galaxies were all created as they are, and the evidence they present is an illusion.

Of course, this argument is itself irrelevant, for it can be neither proved nor disproved. it is not an argument, actually, but a statement. I can say that the entire universe was created two minutes age, complete with all its history books describing a nonexistent past in detail, and with every living person equipped with a full memory; you, for instance, in the process of reading this article in midstream with a memory of what you had read in the beginning—which you had not really read.

What kind of Creator would produce a universe containing so intricate an illusion? It would mean that the Creator formed a universe that contained human beings whom He had endowed with the faculty of curiosity and the ability to reason. He supplied those human beings with an enormous amount of subtle and cleverly consistent evidence designed to mislead them and cause them to be convinced that the universe was created 20 billion years ago and developed by evolutionary processes that include the creation and the development of life on Earth. Why?

Does the Creator take pleasure in fooling us? Does it amuse Him to watch us go wrong? Is it part of a test to see if human beings will deny their senses and their reason in order to cling to myth? Can it be that the Creator is a cruel and malicious prankster, with a vicious and adolescent sense of humor?

• The argument from authority.

The Bible says that God created the world in six days, and the Bible is the inspired word of God. To the average creationist this is all that counts. All other arguments are merely a tedious way of countering the propaganda of all those wicked humanists, agnostics, an atheists who are not satisfied with the clear word of the Lord.

The creationist leaders do not actually use that argument because that would make their argument a religious one, and they would not be able to use it in fighting a secular school system. They have to borrow the clothing of science, no matter how badly it fits, and call themselves "scientific" creationists. They also speak only of the "Creator," and never mentioned that this Creator is the God of the Bible.

We cannot, however, take this sheep's clothing seriously. However much the creationist leaders might hammer away at in their "scientific" and "philosophical" points, they would be helpless and a laughing-stock if that were all they had.

It is religion that recruits their squadrons. Tens of millions of Americans, who neither know nor understand the actual arguments for or even against evolution, march in the army of the night with their Bibles held high. And they are a strong and frightening force, impervious to, and immunized against, the feeble lance of mere reason.

Even if I am right and the evolutionists' case is very strong, have not creationists, whatever the emptiness of their case, a right to be heard? if their case is empty, isn't it perfectly safe to discuss it since the emptiness would then be apparent? Why, then are evolutionists so reluctant to have creationism taught in the public schools on an equal basis with evolutionary theory? can it be that the evolutionists are not as confident of their case as they pretend. Are they afraid to allow youngsters a clear choice?

First, the creationists are somewhat less than honest in their demand for equal time. It is not their views that are repressed: schools are by no means the only place in which the dispute between creationism and evolutionary theory is played out. There are churches, for instance, which are a much more serious influence on most Americans than the schools are. To be sure, many churches are quite liberal, have made their peace with science and find it easy to live with scientific advance — even with evolution. But many of the less modish and citified churches are bastions of creationism.

The influence of the church is naturally felt in the home, in the newspapers, and in all of surrounding society. It makes itself felt in the nation as a whole, even in religiously liberal areas, in thousands of subtle ways: in the nature of holiday observance, in expressions of patriotic fervor, even in total irrelevancies. In 1968, for example, a team of astronomers circling the moon were instructed to read the first few verses of Genesis as though NASA felt it had to placate the public lest they rage against the violation of the firmament. At the present time, even the current President of the United States has expressed his creationist sympathies.

It is only in school that American youngsters in general are ever likely to hear any reasoned exposition of the evolutionary viewpiont. They might find such a viewpoint in books, magazines, newspapers, or even, on occasion, on television. But church and family can easily censor printed matter or television. Only the school is beyond their control.

But only just barely beyond. Even though schools are now allowed to teach evolution, teachers are beginning to be apologetic about it, knowing full well their jobs are at the mercy of school boards upon which creationists are a stronger and stronger influence.

Then, too, in schools, students are not required to believe what they learn about evolution—merely to parrot it back on test. If they fail to do so, their punishment is nothing more than the loss of a few points on a test or two.

In the creationist churches, however, the congregation is required to believe. Impressionable youngsters, taught that they will go to hell if they listen to the evolutionary doctrine, are not likely to listen in comfort or to believe if they do. Therefore, creationists, who control the church and the society they live in and to face the public-school as the only place where evolution is even briefly mentioned in a possible favorable way, find they cannot stand even so minuscule a competition and demand "equal time."

Do you suppose their devotion to "fairness" is such that they will give equal time to evolution in their churches?

Second, the real danger is the manner in which creationists want threir "equal time." In the scientific world, there is free and open competition of ideas, and even a scientist whose suggestions are not accepted is nevertheless free to continue to argue his case. In this free and open competition of ideas, creationism has clearly lost. It has been losing, in fact, since the time of Copernicus four and a half centuries ago. But creationism, placing myth above reason, refused to accept the decision and are now calling on the government to force their views on the schools in lieu of the free expression of ideas. Teachers must be forced to present creationism as though it had equal intellectual respectability with evolutionary doctrine.

What a precedent this sets.

If the government can mobilize its policemen and its prisons to make certain that teachers give creationism equal time, they can next use force to make sure that teachers declare creationism the victor so that evolution will be evicted from the classroom altogether. We will have established ground work, in other words, for legally enforced ignorance and for totalitarian thought control. And what if the creationists win? They might, you know, for there are millions who, faced with a choice between science and their interpretation of the Bible, will choose the Bible and reject science, regardless of the evidence.

This is not entirely because of the traditional and unthinking reverence for the literal words of the Bible; there is also a pervasive uneasiness—even an actual fear—of science that will drive even those who care little for fundamentalism into the arms of the creationists. For one thing, science is uncertain. Theories are subject to revision; observations are open to a variety of interpretations, and scientists quarrel among themselves. This is disillusioning for those untrained in the scientific method, who thus turn to the rigid certainty of the Bible instead. There is something comfortable about a view that allows for no deviation and that spares you the painful necessity of having to think.

Second, science is complex and chilling. The mathematical language of science is understood by very few. The vistas it presents are scary—an enormous universe ruled by chance and impersonal rules, empty and uncaring, ungraspable and vertiginous. How comfortable to turn instead to a small world, only a few thousand years old, and under God's personal and immediate care; a world in which you are his particular concern and where He will not consign you to hell if you are careful to follow every word of the Bible as interpreted for you by your television preacher.

Third, science is dangerous. There is no question but that poison gas, genetic engineering, and nuclear weapons and power stations are terrifying. It may be that civilization is falling apart and the world we know is coming to an end. In that case, why not turn to religion and look forward to the Day of Judgment, in which you and your fellow believers will be lifted into eternal bliss and have the added joy of watching the scoffers and disbelievers writhe forever in torment.

So why might they not win?

There are numerous cases of societies in which the armies of the night have ridden triumphantly over minorities in order to establish a powerful orthodoxy which dictates official thought. Invariably, the triumphant ride is toward long-range disaster. Spain dominated Europe and the world in the 16th century, but in Spain orthodoxy came first, and all divergence of opinion was ruthlessly suppressed. The result was that Spain settled back into blankness and did not share in the scientific, technological and commercial ferment that bubbled up in other nations of Western Europe. Spain remained an intellectual backwater for centuries. In the late 17th century, France in the name of orthodoxy revoked the Edict of Nantes and drove out many thousands of Huguenots, who added their intellectual vigor to lands of refuge such as Great Britain, the Netherlands, and Prussia, while France was permanently weakened.

In more recent times, Germany hounded out the Jewish scientists of Europe. They arrived in the United States and contributed immeasurably to scientific advancement here, while Germany lost so heavily that there is no telling how long it will take it to regain its former scientific eminence. The Soviet Union, in its fascination with Lysenko, destroyed its geneticists, and set back its biological sciences for decades. China, during the Cultural Revolution, turned against Western science and is still laboring to overcome the devastation that resulted.

As we now, with all these examples before us, to ride backward into the past under the same tattered banner of orthodoxy? With creationism in the saddle, American science will wither. We will raise a generation of ignoramuses ill-equipped to run the industry of tomorrow, much less to generate the new advances of the days after tomorrow.

We will inevitably recede into the backwater of civilization, and those nations that retain opened scientific thought will take over the leadership of the world and the cutting edge of human advancement. I don't suppose that the creationists really plan the decline of the United States, but their loudly expressed patriotism is as simpleminded as their "science." If they succeed, they will, in their folly, achieve the opposite of what they say they wish.

( Isaac Asimov, "The 'Threat' of Creationism," New York Times Magazine, June 14, 1981; from Science and Creationism, Ashley Montagu, ed., New York: Oxford University Press, 1984, pp. 182-193. )


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: creation; creationism; crevolist; darwin; evolution; evolutionism; intelligentdesign
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To: LogicWings; cornelis; Dataman; Phaedrus
One cannot meditate upon a passage and be entirely silent at the same time. One is either silent, or one is thinking.

I'd thought I'd make it crystal clear that these are two distinctly different forms of meditation. Apparently not.

What an amazing essay, LogicWings. You argue like a Left Progressive.

1,241 posted on 03/02/2003 4:50:20 PM PST by betty boop
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To: PatrickHenry
I don't recall mentioning or implying anything involuntary. Anyone reading my post without prejudice would see that I was referring to an inner motivation, one that most of us are born with. But admittedly to varying degrees. Those of us who believe in evolution would classify humans a social animals, implying that self interest and altruism are complementary.
1,242 posted on 03/02/2003 4:59:36 PM PST by js1138
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To: Condorman
I see you
1,243 posted on 03/02/2003 5:03:21 PM PST by js1138
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To: LogicWings
Oh, so you're fettering it to the subjectivist error of undemonstrable inclusivity? You Beg the Question it is an error, you Beg the Question of existence of that which has no demonstrable existence.

I'll assume you are able to reflect, infer, maybe even intuit.

This breakdown in reasoning you termed, the exclusivist error of objectivism because to remain objective means that you have to admit there is no such evidence.>/i>

Even overwhelming evidence can be explained away.

One thing that I have had pounded into my head here is that logic and reason take a back seat whenever it is a choice between them and belief and faith.

Isn't it interesting that at the apparent heights of 'evolution' there exist beings whose very being demands this? I empathize with you. But here again, it is a matter of which subjective premises one wants to build his objective house upon.

Religion has fought every scientific advance, every step along the way.

Certainly Sir Isaac Newton and a host of many witnesses testify against this. But the religion of objectivism does deny advances, indeed, including the advance of knowing the limits of self.

Then you go off about altruism, complain about Marx, then swerve into seeming to say that the Christians are against reasonablly restrained capitalism, when it was the People of the Word who have upheld capitalism from before the time of Abraham.

Then you create a straw man regarding evolution vs. creation and skewer it.

Then you say something interesting to me:

And to go back to Boop's Dream. Even if true, it would have no practical effect. Couldn't build a house with it, couldn't build a fire.

The stuff of betty boop's dream is the only rock upon which a lasting house may be built. As for the fire, it has always existed.

Then you set up another straw man, but show your intent in trying to prop up reason against God. "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land; 20 but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured....

Have you read anything by an apologist?

1,244 posted on 03/02/2003 6:59:11 PM PST by unspun (The most terrorized place in America is a mother's womb.)
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To: betty boop
What an amazing essay, LogicWings. You argue like a Left Progressive.

Think I should spend time reading this, for any reason? (Have supper to eat and fantasy baseball to attend to.)

1,245 posted on 03/02/2003 7:03:10 PM PST by unspun (The most terrorized place in America is a mother's womb.)
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To: cornelis
That's a pretty cool podium. With all the time it took to make it, one would think the previously mentioned "silk stocking for all women" principle could have been applied and more music stands made to accomodate those octuplets. But, it's nice to share an extravagance, too.

z);-`
1,246 posted on 03/02/2003 7:44:16 PM PST by unspun (The most terrorized place in America is a mother's womb.)
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To: unspun
Thank you so much for sharing your analysis and your views! Hugs!
1,247 posted on 03/02/2003 7:56:17 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: jennyp
Macroevolution. Gene duplication, hijacking of function of the duplicates, unequal crossover, & other mechanisms have been seen in the lab; and their occurrence throughout evolutionary history is supported by a mountain of genetic evidence. Here's an interesting article that shows just how pervasive it's been.

Hey, believe it or not, I just read that article (well, read to a degree, through the jargon). Interesting. It would seem to purport quite a process, hardly a random process, but one at work with a bias toward development -- at least with a bias for maintenance of life through many generations.

Did you ever see the movie "Screamers?" I think you would appreciate it.

I'd like to see that creature assumed to be the original vertabrate. Interesting that such a thing would happen. Were those animals reproducing less, or getting less nourishment, were they more susceptible to danger, because they didn't have one? (Kind of like the central nervoue system trading in for an SUV.)

1,248 posted on 03/02/2003 9:19:30 PM PST by unspun (The most terrorized place in America is a mother's womb.)
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To: vishnu2
Because we don't as individuals, or a group, have all knowledge in our universe, intellectually we can only take an agnostic position. God said there is no God before or after Him and that there is no other God. Assuming He had the ability to create the universe we live in, we are convinced he would also know if there was a God other than Him. Therefore logically there doesn't necessitate prior existence to Him.
1,249 posted on 03/02/2003 10:54:38 PM PST by bondserv
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To: bondserv
You missed the point.
1,250 posted on 03/03/2003 6:13:26 AM PST by vishnu2
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Comment #1,251 Removed by Moderator

To: general_re; Lev; Right Wing Professor; Doctor Stochastic; Physicist; VadeRetro
Ok, general, I'm back. Sorry for the delay. My weekend was too busy. My life keeps getting in the way of having a good time on FR. Regarding the challenge, I think brave is probably not the best description for me; FOOLHARDY might be a more apt term:). It may be that I turn out to be more like Inspector Clouseau than Columbo.

I have one question concerning the rules that perhaps you can clarify:
...the claim has been advanced that design can be inferred strictly from the inherent qualities of a thing, without reference to historical or other external information, and I do expect you to hold to that in defending the inferences

My question concerns the use of side information. For example, as in post #1176, a knowlege of cryptoanalysis would be crucial to being able to infer design. I don't have any idea what sorts of pictures you have in mind, but I think that general knowledge of probablity theory and mathematics, etc will be necessary to apply the criterion. If it is acceptable to you, and just for fun, I may, depending on the nature of the problem, ask some our friends who have responded to me here such as Right Wing Professor, or Doctor Stochastic, or Physicist, and perhaps a VadeRetro or a Lev, et al for help with calculations or other scientific evaluations. Not only am I terrible as such tasks, but if they are willing, it would tend to remove any suspicion that calculations were biased in my favor:^)

I propose that success of the criterion be defined as being able to detect design where it is present, assuming that you know the causal stories behind the pictures and can verify whether design is actually present or not. Dembski does not claim that the criterion is useful for determining that something is NOT designed, for the reason that intelligent causes can mimic necessity and chance, and so I don't believe that I will be able to entirely avoid the problem of false negatives. If I'm good enough, though, the criterion should enable me to avoid false positives.

If the above is acceptable to you, I'm ready to go!

Cordially,

1,252 posted on 03/03/2003 7:47:59 AM PST by Diamond
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To: Diamond
Ok, general, I'm back. Sorry for the delay. My weekend was too busy. My life keeps getting in the way of having a good time on FR.

No apologies necessary - I spent my weekend up to my elbows in wallpaper, finishing the bathroom renovation that I was requested to perform ;)

My question concerns the use of side information. For example, as in post #1176, a knowlege of cryptoanalysis would be crucial to being able to infer design. I don't have any idea what sorts of pictures you have in mind, but I think that general knowledge of probablity theory and mathematics, etc will be necessary to apply the criterion. If it is acceptable to you, and just for fun, I may, depending on the nature of the problem, ask some our friends who have responded to me here such as Right Wing Professor, or Doctor Stochastic, or Physicist, and perhaps a VadeRetro or a Lev, et al for help with calculations or other scientific evaluations.

This is perfectly acceptable to me. By way of clarifying what I meant earlier, it's been said that design can be inferred from the qualities of the object itself. By this, I mean that only knowledge of the object's properties and qualities is necessary to infer design. By way of an example, we know as a matter of historical fact that Mount Rushmore was designed and built by an intelligent agent - most of us, in the back of our minds, remember grainy silent films of Gutzon Borglum swinging around the face of a cliff, dynamite in hand. But that does nothing to advance the design inference - if the design inference holds true, we should be able to infer the design of Mount Rushmore, even if we don't know of its design as a matter of historical fact. IOW, aliens who land here tomorrow and know absolutely nothing about humans or their history should be able to use the design inference to discover that Mount Rushmore was designed by an intelligent agent.

But, as I said, the design inference explicitly says that we don't need that sort of knowledge, so I want to put that to the test by ruling it out of bounds. Any of the properties or qualities, mathematical or otherwise, that you are able to discover about the objects in question are, of course, fair game, so long as we're not relying on historical knowledge about them. So if I show you a picture of a car, for example, turning around and saying "I know this is designed because I've been to auto factories and I know designers of autos" and so forth won't work - that may be true, and that's certainly one way to know that a car was designed, but it doesn't satisfy the design inference, because you're relying on historical knowledge of cars and car designing. If, on the other hand, you have some method of determining design - mathematical or otherwise - that can tell you that a car was designed, then that's fair and fits with the design hypothesis. As long as we don't rely on that historical knowledge of how cars are designed and built, it fits the design inference, and is therefore acceptable to me.

I propose that success of the criterion be defined as being able to detect design where it is present, assuming that you know the causal stories behind the pictures and can verify whether design is actually present or not.

Some of the ones I have in mind should be readily apparent whether they are designed or not - it will be interesting to see whether the design inference can tell us what we already know. Some of them may be a bit more subtle, in which case I'm truly interested in what we can learn. ;)

...and so I don't believe that I will be able to entirely avoid the problem of false negatives. If I'm good enough, though, the criterion should enable me to avoid false positives.

Okay. Obviously, we would all like to see something that could reliably determine design one way or the other, but at least knowing that something was definitely designed is an advance in knowledge.

So, to make a long story short, your conditions are acceptable. Play ball! :^)

1,253 posted on 03/03/2003 8:10:57 AM PST by general_re (Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.)
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To: Darwin_is_passe
In fact an amino acid, the very building block of life is infinately more complex than matter in it's elemental state. I'm no mathmetician so somebody else can explain the utterly impossible event of an amino acid forming randomly, let alone forming into a workable structure that can replicate itself eventually.

Oh please! Amino acids are definitely not infinitely complex. They are rather simple compounds that can form more complex molecules which again are not infinitely complex.
Also you have to keep in mind is that atoms and especially those that from organic compounds have certain bonding properties so they don't stick together like candy. Therefore these molecules are not that unlikely and no intelligent agent is required that assembles them atom by atom.
And finally, what has all this to do with the Second Law of Thermodynamics? A molecule, however complex, doesn't violate the 2ndLoT if it's chemically possible.

I just think that randomness begetting more randomness...

I guess you never heard of "self-organization".
Also, have you ever seen a vortex or Bénard convections? Those are both structures (of particles that don't interact chemically with each other) that are more ordered than the patch of gas or fluid they originated from. All you have to do is to add energy.

1,254 posted on 03/03/2003 8:20:36 AM PST by BMCDA
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To: general_re; Diamond; Right Wing Professor; Doctor Stochastic; Physicist; VadeRetro; ...
Personally I find in my industry (Data Communications) people who take very complicated information and are able to communicate the information concisely and without ambiguity, are the people who KNOW what they are talking about. Many in my industry will quickly resort to using acronyms or ambiguous terms to befuddle the person they are speaking to in order to COVER their own misconceptions or ignorance.

Information without clarity is often times deceptive. Let us all shoot for clarity!

Recent research into the structure and workings of genes and DNA has revealed incredible evidence of God's wonderful design. Dr. Jerry Bergman, professor of science at Northwest College, Archibold (Ohio)
We have excerpted portions of his report for this article.


Cell Replication

The details of cell replication are too complex to be described in detail here. A simplified outline is given below to illustrate the incredible process involved: 5

1. Replication involves the synthesis of an exact copy of the cell's DNA.

2. An initiator protein must locate the correct place in the strand to begin copying.

3. The initiator protein guides an "unzipper" protein (helicase) to separate the strand, forming a fork area. This unwinding process involves speeds estimated at approximately 8000 rpm, all done without tangling the DNA strand!

4. The DNA duplex kinks back on itself as it unwinds. To relieve the twisting pressure, an "untwister" enzyme (topo-isomerase) systematically cuts and repairs the coil.

5. Working only on flat, untwisted sections of the DNA, enzymes go to work copying the strand. (Two complete DNA pairs are synthesized, each containing one old and one new strand.)

6. A stitcher repair protein (DNA ligases) connects nucleotides together into one continuous strand.

Read and Write

The process described above is only a small part of the story. While the unwinding and rewinding of the DNA takes place, an equally sophisticated process of reading the DNA code and "writing" new strands occurs. The process involves the production and use of messenger RNA. Again, a simplified process description: 6

1. Messenger RNA is made from DNA by an enzyme (RNA polymerase).

2. A small section of DNA unzips, revealing the actual message (called the sense strand) and the template (the anti-sense strand).

3. A copy is made of the gene of interest only, producing a relatively short RNA segment.

4. The knots and kinks in the DNA provide crucial topological stop-and-go signals for the enzymes.

5. After messenger RNA is made, the DNA duplex is zipped back up.

Adding to the complexity and sophistication of design, the genetic code is read in blocks of three bases (out of the four possible bases mentioned earlier) that are non-overlapping.

Moreover, the triplicate code used is "degenerate," meaning that multiple combinations can often code for the same amino acid-this provides a built-in error correction mechanism. (One can't help but contrast the sophistication involved with the far simpler read/write processes used in modern computers.)

A Common Software House

All living things use DNA and RNA to build life from four simple bases. The process described above is common to all creatures from simple bacteria all the way to humans.

Evolutionists point to this as evidence for their theory but the new discoveries of the complexity of the process, and the fact that bacterial ribosomes are so similar to those in humans, is strong evidence against evolution. The complexities of cell replication must have been present at the beginning of life.

A simple explanation for the similarities of the basic building blocks can be found if one realizes that all life originates from a single "software house." He is awesome indeed!


Click here for the entire article:
http://www.khouse.org/articles/technical/19971201-143.html
1,255 posted on 03/03/2003 9:04:08 AM PST by bondserv
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To: general_re
your conditions are . . .

ah, those epic endeavors. "conditions for the possibility of" The architectural principle of the modern age might oblige to tip the hat to Aristotle. But to a Nietzsche or a Foucault grinning at us with sardonic smiles?

1,256 posted on 03/03/2003 10:21:16 AM PST by cornelis (I am rhetorically interested.)
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To: cornelis
Some say "is", some say "isn't". I say "let's find out". It is what it is, regardless of who likes it or dislikes it, who promotes it or dismisses it, or who takes comfort in it or is injured by it...
1,257 posted on 03/03/2003 10:29:27 AM PST by general_re (Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.)
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To: general_re; Diamond
what it is

I don't know exactly what it you are going after. In any case, the conditions is what they are: particular. The result of discovery will be the same, particular.

A certain presumption--perhaps still tame and legitimate in Aristotle but certainly not after Kant--imagined that particular conditions could be generalized beyond themselves and raised to a universal status.

Of course they is what they are. A unified field theory is likewise limited. One of the joys of the press was the political hay they made with Einstein's theory of relativity. Perhaps they did not "universalize" the theory, but they certainly took great pleasure in extending and generalizing it into fields from which it did not originate. Hayek called this the abuse of reason.

1,258 posted on 03/03/2003 11:01:35 AM PST by cornelis (pergo modo)
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Comment #1,259 Removed by Moderator

To: Right Wing Professor
whatever
1,260 posted on 03/03/2003 12:02:13 PM PST by 70times7
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