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The "Threat" of Creationism, by Isaac Asimov
Internet ^ | 1984 | Isaac Asimov

Posted on 02/15/2003 4:18:25 PM PST by PatrickHenry

Scientists thought it was settled. The universe, they had decided, is about 20 billion years old, and Earth itself is 4.5 billion years old. Simple forms of life came into being more than three billion years ago, having formed spontaneously from nonliving matter. They grew more complex through slow evolutionary processes and the first hominid ancestors of humanity appeared more than four million years ago. Homo sapians itself—the present human species, people like you and me—has walked the earth for at least 50,000 years.

But apparently it isn't settled. There are Americans who believe that the earth is only about 6,000 years old; that human beings and all other species were brought into existence by a divine Creator as eternally separate variations of beings; and that there has been no evolutionary process.

They are creationists—they call themselves "scientific" creationists—and they are a growing power in the land, demanding that schools be forced to teach their views. State legislatures, mindful of the votes, are beginning to succumb to the pressure. In perhaps 15 states, bills have been introduced, putting forth the creationist point of view, and in others, strong movements are gaining momentum. In Arkansas, a law requiring that the teaching of creationism receive equal time was passed this spring and is scheduled to go into effect in September 1982, though the American Civil Liberties Union has filed suit on behalf of a group of clergymen, teachers, and parents to overturn it. And a California father named Kelly Segraves, the director of the Creation-Science Research Center, sued to have public-school science classes taught that there are other theories of creation besides evolution, and that one of them was the Biblical version. The suit came to trial in March, and the judge ruled that educators must distribute a policy statement to schools and textbook publishers explaining that the theory of evolution should not be seen as "the ultimate cause of origins." Even in New York, the Board of Education has delayed since January in making a final decision, expected this month [June 1981], on whether schools will be required to include the teaching of creationism in their curriculums.

The Rev. Jerry Fallwell, the head of the Moral Majority, who supports the creationist view from his television pulpit, claims that he has 17 million to 25 million viewers (though Arbitron places the figure at a much more modest 1.6 million). But there are 66 electronic ministries which have a total audience of about 20 million. And in parts of the country where the Fundamentalists predominate—the so called Bible Belt— creationists are in the majority.

They make up a fervid and dedicated group, convinced beyond argument of both their rightness and their righteousness. Faced with an apathetic and falsely secure majority, smaller groups have used intense pressure and forceful campaigning—as the creationists do—and have succeeded in disrupting and taking over whole societies.

Yet, though creationists seem to accept the literal truth of the Biblical story of creation, this does not mean that all religious people are creationists. There are millions of Catholics, Protestants, and Jews who think of the Bible as a source of spiritual truth and accept much of it as symbolically rather than literally true. They do not consider the Bible to be a textbook of science, even in intent, and have no problem teaching evolution in their secular institutions.

To those who are trained in science, creationism seems like a bad dream, a sudden reveling of a nightmare, a renewed march of an army of the night risen to challenge free thought and enlightenment.

The scientific evidence for the age of the earth and for the evolutionary development of life seems overwhelming to scientists. How can anyone question it? What are the arguments the creationists use? What is the "science" that makes their views "scientific"? Here are some of them:

• The argument from analogy.

A watch implies a watchmaker, say the creationists. If you were to find a beautifully intricate watch in the desert, from habitation, you would be sure that it had been fashioned by human hands and somehow left it there. It would pass the bounds of credibility that it had simply formed, spontaneously, from the sands of the desert.

By analogy, then, if you consider humanity, life, Earth, and the universe, all infinitely more intricate than a watch, you can believe far less easily that it "just happened." It, too, like the watch, must have been fashioned, but by more-than-human hands—in short by a divine Creator.

This argument seems unanswerable, and it has been used (even though not often explicitly expressed) ever since the dawn of consciousness. To have explained to prescientific human beings that the wind and the rain and the sun follow the laws of nature and do so blindly and without a guiding would have been utterly unconvincing to them. In fact, it might have well gotten you stoned to death as a blasphemer.

There are many aspects of the universe that still cannot be explained satisfactorily by science; but ignorance only implies ignorance that may someday be conquered. To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today.

In short, the complexity of the universe—and one's inability to explain it in full—is not in itself an argument for a Creator.

• The argument from general consent.

Some creationists point at that belief in a Creator is general among all peoples and all cultures. Surly this unanimous craving hints at a greater truth. There would be no unanimous belief in a lie.

General belief, however, is not really surprising. Nearly every people on earth that considers the existence of the world assumes it to have been created by a god or gods. And each group invents full details for the story. No two creation tales are alike. The Greeks, the Norsemen, the Japanese, the Hindus, the American Indians, and so on and so on all have their own creation myths, and all of these are recognized by Americans of Judeo-Christian heritage as "just myths."

The ancient Hebrews also had a creation tale—two of them, in fact. There is a primitive Adam-and-Eve-in-Paradise story, with man created first, then animals, then women. There is also a poetic tale of God fashioning the universe in six days, with animals preceding man, and man and woman created together.

These Hebrew myths are not inherently more credible than any of the others, but they are our myths. General consent, of course, proves nothing: There can be a unanimous belief in something that isn't so. The universal opinion over thousands of years that the earth was flat never flattened its spherical shape by one inch.

• The argument of belittlement.

Creationists frequently stress the fact that evolution is "only a theory," giving the impression that a theory is an idle guess. A scientist, one gathers, arising one morning with nothing particular to do, decided that perhaps the moon is made of Roquefort cheese and instantly advances the Roquefort-cheese theory.

A theory (as the word is used by scientists) is a detailed description of some facet of the universe's workings that is based on long observation and, where possible, experiment. It is the result of careful reasoning from these observations and experiments that has survived the critical study of scientists generally.

For example, we have the description of the cellular nature of living organisms (the "cell theory"); of objects attracting each other according to fixed rule (the "theory of gravitation"); of energy behaving in discrete bits (the "quantum theory"); of light traveling through a vacuum at a fixed measurable velocity (the "theory of relativity"), and so on.

All are theories; all are firmly founded; all are accepted as valid descriptions of this or that aspect of the universe. They are neither guesses nor speculations. And no theory is better founded, more closely examined, more critically argued and more thoroughly accepted, than the theory of evolution. If it is "only" a theory, that is all it has to be.

Creationism, on the other hand, is not a theory. There is no evidence, in the scientific sense, that supports it. Creationism, or at least the particular variety accepted by many Americans, is an expression of early Middle Eastern legend. It is fairly described as "only a myth."

• The argument of imperfection.

Creationists, in recent years, have stressed the "scientific" background of their beliefs. They point out that there are scientists who base their creationists beliefs on a careful study of geology, paleontology, and biology and produce "textbooks" that embody those beliefs.

Virtually the whole scientific corpus of creationism, however, consists of the pointing out of imperfections in the evolutionary view. The creationists insists, for example, that evolutionists cannot true transition states between species in the fossil evidence; that age determinations through radioactive breakdown are uncertain; that alternative interpretations of this or that piece of evidence are possible and so on.

Because the evolutionary view is not perfect and is not agreed upon by all scientists, creationists argue that evolution is false and that scientists, in supporting evolution, are basing their views on blind faith and dogmatism.

To an extent, the creationists are right here: The details of evolution are not perfectly known. Scientists have been adjusting and modifying Charles Darwin's suggestions since he advanced his theory of the origin of species through natural selection back in 1859. After all, much has been learned about the fossil record and physiology, microbiology, biochemistry, ethology, and various other branches of life science in the last 125 years, and it was to be expected that we can improve on Darwin. In fact, we have improved on him. Nor is the process finished. it can never be, as long as human beings continue to question and to strive for better answers.

The details of evolutionary theory are in dispute precisely because scientists are not devotees of blind faith and dogmatism. They do not accept even as great thinker as Darwin without question, nor do they accept any idea, new or old, without thorough argument. Even after accepting an idea, they stand ready to overrule it, if appropriate new evidence arrives. If, however, we grant that a theory is imperfect and details remain in dispute, does that disprove the theory as a whole?

Consider. I drive a car, and you drive a car. I do not know exactly how an engine works. Perhaps you do not either. And it may be that our hazy and approximate ideas of the workings of an automobile are in conflict. Must we then conclude from this disagreement that an automobile does not run, or that it does not exist? Or, if our senses force us to conclude that an automobile does exist and run, does that mean it is pulled by an invisible horses, since our engine theory is imperfect?

However much scientists argue their differing beliefs in details of evolutionary theory, or in the interpretation of the necessarily imperfect fossil record, they firmly accept the evolutionary process itself.

• The argument from distorted science.

Creationists have learned enough scientific terminology to use it in their attempts to disprove evolution. They do this in numerous ways, but the most common example, at least in the mail I receive is the repeated assertion that the second law of thermodynamics demonstrates the evolutionary process to be impossible.

In kindergarten terms, the second law of thermodynamics says that all spontaneous change is in the direction of increasing disorder—that is, in a "downhill" direction. There can be no spontaneous buildup of the complex from the simple, therefore, because that would be moving "uphill." According to the creationists argument, since, by the evolutionary process, complex forms of life evolve from simple forms, that process defies the second law, so creationism must be true.

Such an argument implies that this clearly visible fallacy is somehow invisible to scientists, who must therefore be flying in the face of the second law through sheer perversity. Scientists, however, do know about the second law and they are not blind. It's just that an argument based on kindergarten terms is suitable only for kindergartens.

To lift the argument a notch above the kindergarten level, the second law of thermodynamics applies to a "closed system"—that is, to a system that does not gain energy from without, or lose energy to the outside. The only truly closed system we know of is the universe as a whole.

Within a closed system, there are subsystems that can gain complexity spontaneously, provided there is a greater loss of complexity in another interlocking subsystem. The overall change then is a complexity loss in a line with the dictates of the second law.

Evolution can proceed and build up the complex from the simple, thus moving uphill, without violating the second law, as long as another interlocking part of the system — the sun, which delivers energy to the earth continually — moves downhill (as it does) at a much faster rate than evolution moves uphill. If the sun were to cease shining, evolution would stop and so, eventually, would life.

Unfortunately, the second law is a subtle concept which most people are not accustomed to dealing with, and it is not easy to see the fallacy in the creationists distortion.

There are many other "scientific" arguments used by creationists, some taking quite cleaver advantage of present areas of dispute in evolutionary theory, but every one of then is as disingenuous as the second-law argument.

The "scientific" arguments are organized into special creationist textbooks, which have all the surface appearance of the real thing, and which school systems are being heavily pressured to accept. They are written by people who have not made any mark as scientists, and, while they discuss geology, paleontology and biology with correct scientific terminology, they are devoted almost entirely to raising doubts over the legitimacy of the evidence and reasoning underlying evolutionary thinking on the assumption that this leaves creationism as the only possible alternative.

Evidence actually in favor of creationism is not presented, of course, because none exist other than the word of the Bible, which it is current creationist strategy not to use.

• The argument from irrelevance.

Some creationists putt all matters of scientific evidence to one side and consider all such things irrelevant. The Creator, they say, brought life and the earth and the entire universe into being 6,000 years ago or so, complete with all the evidence for eons-long evolutionary development. The fossil record, the decaying radio activity, the receding galaxies were all created as they are, and the evidence they present is an illusion.

Of course, this argument is itself irrelevant, for it can be neither proved nor disproved. it is not an argument, actually, but a statement. I can say that the entire universe was created two minutes age, complete with all its history books describing a nonexistent past in detail, and with every living person equipped with a full memory; you, for instance, in the process of reading this article in midstream with a memory of what you had read in the beginning—which you had not really read.

What kind of Creator would produce a universe containing so intricate an illusion? It would mean that the Creator formed a universe that contained human beings whom He had endowed with the faculty of curiosity and the ability to reason. He supplied those human beings with an enormous amount of subtle and cleverly consistent evidence designed to mislead them and cause them to be convinced that the universe was created 20 billion years ago and developed by evolutionary processes that include the creation and the development of life on Earth. Why?

Does the Creator take pleasure in fooling us? Does it amuse Him to watch us go wrong? Is it part of a test to see if human beings will deny their senses and their reason in order to cling to myth? Can it be that the Creator is a cruel and malicious prankster, with a vicious and adolescent sense of humor?

• The argument from authority.

The Bible says that God created the world in six days, and the Bible is the inspired word of God. To the average creationist this is all that counts. All other arguments are merely a tedious way of countering the propaganda of all those wicked humanists, agnostics, an atheists who are not satisfied with the clear word of the Lord.

The creationist leaders do not actually use that argument because that would make their argument a religious one, and they would not be able to use it in fighting a secular school system. They have to borrow the clothing of science, no matter how badly it fits, and call themselves "scientific" creationists. They also speak only of the "Creator," and never mentioned that this Creator is the God of the Bible.

We cannot, however, take this sheep's clothing seriously. However much the creationist leaders might hammer away at in their "scientific" and "philosophical" points, they would be helpless and a laughing-stock if that were all they had.

It is religion that recruits their squadrons. Tens of millions of Americans, who neither know nor understand the actual arguments for or even against evolution, march in the army of the night with their Bibles held high. And they are a strong and frightening force, impervious to, and immunized against, the feeble lance of mere reason.

Even if I am right and the evolutionists' case is very strong, have not creationists, whatever the emptiness of their case, a right to be heard? if their case is empty, isn't it perfectly safe to discuss it since the emptiness would then be apparent? Why, then are evolutionists so reluctant to have creationism taught in the public schools on an equal basis with evolutionary theory? can it be that the evolutionists are not as confident of their case as they pretend. Are they afraid to allow youngsters a clear choice?

First, the creationists are somewhat less than honest in their demand for equal time. It is not their views that are repressed: schools are by no means the only place in which the dispute between creationism and evolutionary theory is played out. There are churches, for instance, which are a much more serious influence on most Americans than the schools are. To be sure, many churches are quite liberal, have made their peace with science and find it easy to live with scientific advance — even with evolution. But many of the less modish and citified churches are bastions of creationism.

The influence of the church is naturally felt in the home, in the newspapers, and in all of surrounding society. It makes itself felt in the nation as a whole, even in religiously liberal areas, in thousands of subtle ways: in the nature of holiday observance, in expressions of patriotic fervor, even in total irrelevancies. In 1968, for example, a team of astronomers circling the moon were instructed to read the first few verses of Genesis as though NASA felt it had to placate the public lest they rage against the violation of the firmament. At the present time, even the current President of the United States has expressed his creationist sympathies.

It is only in school that American youngsters in general are ever likely to hear any reasoned exposition of the evolutionary viewpiont. They might find such a viewpoint in books, magazines, newspapers, or even, on occasion, on television. But church and family can easily censor printed matter or television. Only the school is beyond their control.

But only just barely beyond. Even though schools are now allowed to teach evolution, teachers are beginning to be apologetic about it, knowing full well their jobs are at the mercy of school boards upon which creationists are a stronger and stronger influence.

Then, too, in schools, students are not required to believe what they learn about evolution—merely to parrot it back on test. If they fail to do so, their punishment is nothing more than the loss of a few points on a test or two.

In the creationist churches, however, the congregation is required to believe. Impressionable youngsters, taught that they will go to hell if they listen to the evolutionary doctrine, are not likely to listen in comfort or to believe if they do. Therefore, creationists, who control the church and the society they live in and to face the public-school as the only place where evolution is even briefly mentioned in a possible favorable way, find they cannot stand even so minuscule a competition and demand "equal time."

Do you suppose their devotion to "fairness" is such that they will give equal time to evolution in their churches?

Second, the real danger is the manner in which creationists want threir "equal time." In the scientific world, there is free and open competition of ideas, and even a scientist whose suggestions are not accepted is nevertheless free to continue to argue his case. In this free and open competition of ideas, creationism has clearly lost. It has been losing, in fact, since the time of Copernicus four and a half centuries ago. But creationism, placing myth above reason, refused to accept the decision and are now calling on the government to force their views on the schools in lieu of the free expression of ideas. Teachers must be forced to present creationism as though it had equal intellectual respectability with evolutionary doctrine.

What a precedent this sets.

If the government can mobilize its policemen and its prisons to make certain that teachers give creationism equal time, they can next use force to make sure that teachers declare creationism the victor so that evolution will be evicted from the classroom altogether. We will have established ground work, in other words, for legally enforced ignorance and for totalitarian thought control. And what if the creationists win? They might, you know, for there are millions who, faced with a choice between science and their interpretation of the Bible, will choose the Bible and reject science, regardless of the evidence.

This is not entirely because of the traditional and unthinking reverence for the literal words of the Bible; there is also a pervasive uneasiness—even an actual fear—of science that will drive even those who care little for fundamentalism into the arms of the creationists. For one thing, science is uncertain. Theories are subject to revision; observations are open to a variety of interpretations, and scientists quarrel among themselves. This is disillusioning for those untrained in the scientific method, who thus turn to the rigid certainty of the Bible instead. There is something comfortable about a view that allows for no deviation and that spares you the painful necessity of having to think.

Second, science is complex and chilling. The mathematical language of science is understood by very few. The vistas it presents are scary—an enormous universe ruled by chance and impersonal rules, empty and uncaring, ungraspable and vertiginous. How comfortable to turn instead to a small world, only a few thousand years old, and under God's personal and immediate care; a world in which you are his particular concern and where He will not consign you to hell if you are careful to follow every word of the Bible as interpreted for you by your television preacher.

Third, science is dangerous. There is no question but that poison gas, genetic engineering, and nuclear weapons and power stations are terrifying. It may be that civilization is falling apart and the world we know is coming to an end. In that case, why not turn to religion and look forward to the Day of Judgment, in which you and your fellow believers will be lifted into eternal bliss and have the added joy of watching the scoffers and disbelievers writhe forever in torment.

So why might they not win?

There are numerous cases of societies in which the armies of the night have ridden triumphantly over minorities in order to establish a powerful orthodoxy which dictates official thought. Invariably, the triumphant ride is toward long-range disaster. Spain dominated Europe and the world in the 16th century, but in Spain orthodoxy came first, and all divergence of opinion was ruthlessly suppressed. The result was that Spain settled back into blankness and did not share in the scientific, technological and commercial ferment that bubbled up in other nations of Western Europe. Spain remained an intellectual backwater for centuries. In the late 17th century, France in the name of orthodoxy revoked the Edict of Nantes and drove out many thousands of Huguenots, who added their intellectual vigor to lands of refuge such as Great Britain, the Netherlands, and Prussia, while France was permanently weakened.

In more recent times, Germany hounded out the Jewish scientists of Europe. They arrived in the United States and contributed immeasurably to scientific advancement here, while Germany lost so heavily that there is no telling how long it will take it to regain its former scientific eminence. The Soviet Union, in its fascination with Lysenko, destroyed its geneticists, and set back its biological sciences for decades. China, during the Cultural Revolution, turned against Western science and is still laboring to overcome the devastation that resulted.

As we now, with all these examples before us, to ride backward into the past under the same tattered banner of orthodoxy? With creationism in the saddle, American science will wither. We will raise a generation of ignoramuses ill-equipped to run the industry of tomorrow, much less to generate the new advances of the days after tomorrow.

We will inevitably recede into the backwater of civilization, and those nations that retain opened scientific thought will take over the leadership of the world and the cutting edge of human advancement. I don't suppose that the creationists really plan the decline of the United States, but their loudly expressed patriotism is as simpleminded as their "science." If they succeed, they will, in their folly, achieve the opposite of what they say they wish.

( Isaac Asimov, "The 'Threat' of Creationism," New York Times Magazine, June 14, 1981; from Science and Creationism, Ashley Montagu, ed., New York: Oxford University Press, 1984, pp. 182-193. )


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: creation; creationism; crevolist; darwin; evolution; evolutionism; intelligentdesign
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To: general_re; Scully; oldcats; Stultis; Godel; Lev
where's Gummy?

Where's Scully? Where's oldcats? Where's Stultis? Where's Godel? Where's Lev?

1,021 posted on 02/26/2003 7:21:03 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas)
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To: general_re
I haven't seen posts from him in a long while, but his profile is still up...

You are correct, sir! It's been over a month - makes you wonder!

1,022 posted on 02/26/2003 7:27:07 PM PST by balrog666 (When in doubt, tell the truth. - Mark Twain)
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To: VadeRetro
Jesus H. Christ!

I think he's on AUTOSPAM!

1476 posted on 07/14/2002 7:51 PM CDT by balrog666

That was a funny trip down memory lane.

1,023 posted on 02/26/2003 7:35:20 PM PST by balrog666 (When in doubt, tell the truth. - Mark Twain)
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To: PatrickHenry; balrog666; longshadow
Lev, I can say, is still around from time to time. I saw posts of his last week, and the last post of his is from two days ago. Stultis and Godel are still around, from their posting history, just not slumming on the crevo threads much ;)

Scully - last post, 1/11/2003
oldcats - last post, 3/27/2002
Stultis - last post, earlier today
Godel - last post, yesterday.

So what happened to Gummy and Scully?

1,024 posted on 02/26/2003 7:36:46 PM PST by general_re (Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.)
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To: unspun
I'm basing my logic upon a principle of purpose, a principle which is basic to the theorists of evolution...

At this point you are already making assumptions that evolutionary theory explicitly does not make. Evolutionary theory isn't teleological.

1,025 posted on 02/26/2003 8:35:34 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: PatrickHenry
Nebullis hasn't been here for about a week or so either.
1,026 posted on 02/26/2003 8:37:25 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: unspun; betty boop; Phaedrus
If we are thoroughly physical beings, consisting only of something called matter and only functioning based upon its "calculations" (an easy model to resort to, since it is based upon the calculating physical models we create) how incongruous to the level of insanity to be so imaginary with our minds!

Er, I just want to point out that matter is a useful construct but our physical existence consists of waves. Space/time itself is but a quality of the extension of field, which I assert is a wave phenomenon.

We are not even sure how to explain mass; hopefully, the Fermilab tests will confirm the existence of the Higgs field/boson.

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a persistent one. - Albert Einstein

PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News Number 579 March 5, 2002 by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein, and James Riordon

A MATTER-WAVE INTERFEROMETER FOR LARGE MOLECULES has been devised and demonstrated for the first time. For many years scientists have studied the proposition that things we normally think of as particles, such as electrons, should also have wave properties. Indeed studies of beams of electrons, neutrons, even whole atoms, have confirmed that particles can be viewed as a series of traveling waves which diffracted when they pass through a grating or through slits. These waves could even interfere with each other, resulting in characteristic patterns captured by particle detectors. In this way, in 1999 Anton Zeilinger and his colleagues at the University of Vienna demonstrated the wave nature of carbon-60 molecules by diffracting them (in their wave manifestation) from a grating (Update 453). Now the same group, using a full interferometer consisting of three gratings with wider grating spacings and a more efficient detector setup, observe a sharp interference pattern. Moreover, because the beam of particles used, carbon-70 molecules at a temperature of 900 K, are themselves in an excited state (undergoing 3 rotational and 204 vibrational modes of internal motion), it should be possible to study the way in which an atom wave, or in this case a macromolecular wave, becomes decoherent (that is, loses its wavelike character) because of thermal motions and other interactions with its environment. Thus this type of interferometer experiment will be useful in studying the borderland between the quantum and classical worlds. The researchers (contact Bjorn Brezger, bjoern@brezger.de, University of Vienna) are aiming to study the wave properties of even larger composite objects, mid- sized proteins. (Brezger et al., Physical Review Letters, 11 March 2002; see also www.quantum.univie.ac.at)

General introduction for lurkers: The Standard Model and the Higgs boson

1,027 posted on 02/26/2003 8:42:47 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Doctor Stochastic
At this point you are already making assumptions that evolutionary theory explicitly does not make. Evolutionary theory isn't teleological.

Everything about evolution that I have ever heard is teleological. What do you suppose "survival of the fittest" is supposed to be fit?

1,028 posted on 02/26/2003 8:58:26 PM PST by unspun (Don't think of a pink rhinoserous.)
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To: Doctor Stochastic
What do you suppose "survival of the fittest" is supposed to be fit?

It is all supposed to be about the purpose of adaptation being for better survival of the conditions of life on Earth.

(Kindly suggest you don't beg the question by suggesting a disctintion of whether a purpose is "ultimate" or "destiny" or not.)

1,029 posted on 02/26/2003 9:04:07 PM PST by unspun (Don't think of a pink rhinoserous.)
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To: unspun
disctintion = distinction
1,030 posted on 02/26/2003 9:08:13 PM PST by unspun (Don't think of a pink rhinoserous.)
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To: Alamo-Girl
Yes, thanks. Such amazing "non-craft," the formation of things we regard as persons made to the lazy-eyed objectivist of matter, which is yet made of the inexplicable/as-yet-to-be-explained....
1,031 posted on 02/26/2003 9:13:24 PM PST by unspun (Don't think of a pink rhinoserous.)
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To: unspun
Then you haven't understood at all. Survival of the fittest is an ex-post concept, not an ex-ante. (I would have called it survival of the adequate, but my suggestion came too late.) You should read some biology texts.

Mutations (and other genetic happenings) propose and selection disposes. There's no teleology, just survival. Sometimes (as in the Toba erruption), location is important. Sometimes disease resistance is important. Sometimes naturally curly hair is important.
1,032 posted on 02/26/2003 9:13:48 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: unspun
Thank you so much for your post!

Very well put: the formation of things we regard as persons made to the lazy-eyed objectivist of matter, which is yet made of the inexplicable/as-yet-to-be-explained

Hugs!

1,033 posted on 02/26/2003 9:26:20 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
but our physical existence consists of waves.

Half right.

1,034 posted on 02/26/2003 9:30:58 PM PST by js1138
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To: js1138
Depends on how you look at it. (Somewhat like examining peanuts at a bar, they're complementary.)
1,035 posted on 02/26/2003 9:38:38 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: js1138
Thank you so much for your post!

Indeed, there is much to be said about wave/particle duality - photon/light, etc.

IMHO, our existence is wavelike at the root. At the Planck Epoch all fundamental forces were unified, i.e. at the inception of the big bang, the four forces existed in a single state under supersymmetry.

Somewhere around 10-35 a split in the forces occurred, beginning the inflationary stage at about 10-32. Temperatures dropped then rose in a process orchestrated by gravity wave.

Quarks spawned under high temperatures, as the strong nuclear force and electroweak force were dissociated As temperatures fell, the weak nuclear force and electromagnetic force began operating independently (more wave phenomenon.) By 10-6 the quarks began organizing into hadrons, followed by electrons and other leptons. Both matter and antimatter were created in this baryogenesis, and most of them annihilated each other in bursts of gamma radiation and energetic photons (more wave phenomenon.)

I visualize particles (quarks, leptons and bosons) as placemarkers and messengers – instances in a dynamic panorama of wave phenomenon. I see their duality by not attributing ‘object’ status to them.

I see the initiating event as a harmonic, a quantum state change, possibly like a higher dimensional dynamic "shock wave."

By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. – Psalms 33:6

1,036 posted on 02/26/2003 10:57:37 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Darwin_is_passe; Physicist; RadioAstronomer
No scientific theory is passe until it has been surpassed by a better one with more explanatory or predictive capability. couldn't be farther from the truth. Science doesn't work that way. In science a theory is not considered correct until it has been proven to be correct. Darwinian evolution has not been proven to be correct. That's why it's not called Darwin's Law. It's a theory, but it's treated as law.

That goes completely against every science class I've ever taken. And you confuse a scientific hypothesis with a scientific theory, a difference which should have been strongly emphasized in the science classes you have taken.

I'm sure you're a very good worker in your field, but I do know that it is possible to do research and such without knowing beans about the age of earth or evolution. My own grad research, while heavily related to biology, doesn't require me to know beans about evolution, fossils, the age of the earth, and such.

Christians can only lose followers when they give out bad information. And, if I do turn out to be wrong on this, I'll gladly admit it. Can I have some confirmation from you garden-variety scientists, pretty pleeeeeeease? :)
1,037 posted on 02/27/2003 12:53:23 AM PST by Nataku X (Never give Bush any power you wouldn't want to give to Hillary.)
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To: Nakatu X; Darwin_is_passe
No scientific theory is passe until it has been surpassed by a better one with more explanatory or predictive capability. couldn't be farther from the truth. Science doesn't work that way. In science a theory is not considered correct until it has been proven to be correct. Darwinian evolution has not been proven to be correct. That's why it's not called Darwin's Law. It's a theory, but it's treated as law.

Theories never become laws. Theories and laws logically cannot be proven correct. They can only be proven incorrect, and often are, but they remain theories and laws.

A theory is a conceptual framework. A law is an empirically deduced relationship.

Theories can withstand tests and be considered (although not proven) correct, such as the atomic theory of matter. Theories can be proven incorrect, such as Bohr's theory of the atom, but they remain theories.

Laws can fail tests and be proven incorrect, such as Ampere's Law or Newton's Law of Gravitation, but they remain laws. Laws can gain theoretical backing, such as Newton's laws of motion, but they remain laws.

The distinguishing characteristic between a law and a theory is how the relationship was established. I should not have to tell that to a scientist.

1,038 posted on 02/27/2003 4:27:37 AM PST by Physicist
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; js1138; unspun
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a persistent one. - Albert Einstein

I've always liked this quote. Einstein was also an armchair philosopher.

"Look hard" at particles and they seem to resolve into waves, and they always retain at least some small indication of what I also believe is their fundamental "wave nature". Seeking experimental verification of the Higgs Boson is a worthwhile scientific endeavor but it is, IMHO, "more of the same"; i.e. we are filling out the "chart" of subatomic particles. Walker discusses this at length, as well (he really does cover a lot of territory, and competently). Bottom line for me is that particleness and its attendant hard materiality are manifestations of something more fundamental and wavelike.

What intrigues me and what I seldom see discussed is the quantized nature of everything at atomic and subatomic levels. Electrons "jump" from energy level to energy level seemingly instantaneously. Wavelength "cuts off" at the Planck length (granted it is an incredibly short length). Yet all is in actuality motion, vibration, wave activity. Does this imply that physical reality flashes on and off at incredibly short time intervals, like the still frames of a motion picture? Our consciousness certainly has no difficulty putting the picture of motion together in our minds to yield a smooth simile of reality but that picture is nonetheless based upon a series of still frames. Is there a sort of natural "putting together" mode for mind and consciousness which the motion picture industry exploits?

This is written just to drive everyone crazy (and perhaps to show my ignorance) ... ;-}

1,039 posted on 02/27/2003 6:09:51 AM PST by Phaedrus
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To: Darwin_is_passe
My career is in vaccine immonology.

I have trouble with this one. You're singularly ill-equipped to work in this area if you don't accept evolution. And you don't know how to spell it.

1,040 posted on 02/27/2003 6:23:14 AM PST by VadeRetro
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