Posted on 02/08/2003 5:56:38 PM PST by Bigun
White House Floats Idea of Dropping Income Tax Overhaul By EDMUND L. ANDREWS
WASHINGTON, Feb. 7 — President Bush, having already set off a firestorm over his proposals to cut taxes and revamp retirement accounts, suggested today that the time might be near to drop the income tax as a whole and replace it with some form of consumption tax...
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
You were obviously unaware that all the money that you have spent a lifetime to save and which was taxed as income is already being double taxed.
The change is that you would see the tax. Obviously, this will put downward pressure on taxes.
THEN NO ONE CAN! Think about it. THis is the time to really grab the bull by the horns. We must really change the fundamental liabilities that the Liberals have chained to our legs. There are many such problems. The Ninth Circuit Court...it's jurdisction, and it's political bias. The lack of sunset provisions and planning goals - now today all fundamental business procedures...everywhere except in Government. But of all the changes that can be made... the change that would have the biggest and most direct visible influence on the citizen would be the Income Tax System. Everyone who earns money would be affected. Everyone who works for someone else would see an increase in his and her income. Not a mere $300 or $600 but in terms of 15% or more of their take home income. This would have AMAZING effects on our country. Sure, it's a gamble. Not so much political as economic. A different kind of tax method must be in its place. But I guarantee you this, now is the time to change the Income Tax System. We only have a small window of opportunity. Soon the Democrats may retake the house and they will spend like Amelia Marcos... Then blame us. In short. End it! End Personal Income Taxiation. I don't care at all how it is changed. Just get rid of manditory withholding and income taxiation. Please. |
That's a valid observation. But not a reason to not get rid of one of the most intrusive, abusive, and unjust tax systems that has ever been devised. Ths system, as it is, is in trouble and it needs to be reigned in now or we will have a nightmare in the not to distant future. Higher taxes, identity surveilance to prevent unaccounted income, outlawing of cash transactions above a small amount, outrageous loopholes for the influential that make the current system seem fair, resculpturing of our social and cultural system by tax deductions and credits carried to the extent that you will conform to the wishes of the ruling class or live on the streets. Just a few of my predicitions. These are already instituted to some extent, they will become opressive soon.
I have advocated NSRT for about 30 years (before the NSRT was called the NSRT). I've gone from being considered a radical moron for this stance to hearing the President of the United States advocate it. It's an idea whose time is coming. There will be those, like you parents perhaps, who will suffer some bit of injustice, but overall it will be better for all. Those with savings will benefit by having untaxed interest, and probable lower prices for the things they consume. Remember that I am advocating the replacement of all federal taxes on the people and businesses, including SS, income, comp, FICA, etc. We are all paying these taxes now in a hidden way because of the cost of goods that includes them. We would all still be paying them in the future, but we would only pay once, not on every level of production. Commerce would boom for us as we bacame more competitive in world markets by not exporting hidden tax costs along with our goods.
And the teasing continues anyway. ;-)
ONE bite at a time!
That's the main reason I'm apprehensive about this whole NRST idea. If we were starting a new government, and were discussing what would be better, NRST or income tax, NRST would win with me hands down. But the problem is is that we already have an income tax. Throwing another type of tax into the mix, even if you have the full intention of completely replacing the current system (i.e, eating the elephant whole), will more likely result in a hybrid system, which will be worse than what we have now.
Yes, I know you all say that your proposal would completely eliminate the income tax, destroy all IRS records, burn their buildings to the ground and have the NRC declare them contaminated waste sites, etc., etc. But I hardly think it realistic to expect that once you start the debate, you're going to be able to control the direction it'll move in. Call me overly cautious, but flattening the income tax, while not a perfect solution, would drastically improve the current situation, without creating what in my judgment is a highly unnecessary risk.
I agree they are drowning in paperwork but there wouldn't be any other way to collect it. Certainly couldn't rely on an honor type code so it would have to be collected at the point of sale. There would be some elimination of paperwork on the business side as you wouldn't have to deal with withholding although the FICA part would still be there.
I prefer just a flat tax but like you said, ANYTHING is better than what we have now.
The point:
1) A "pure" retail sales tax becomes a VAT eventually, for reasons I outlined in a previous post.
The reasoning you previously posted was invalid both in example(i.e. EU taxes as I have pointed out) and in fundumentals, as we already have the VAT like taxes to contend with now. The NRST corrects that situation by providing a fully visible alternative.
Just because American's in the future may allow government to possibly return to a VAT or VAT equivelant situation is not a valid reason to not enact the NRST now for ourselves. You offer only an excuse for inaction and retaining the status quo, and that is an insufficient argument.
(2) A VAT is an invisible and insidious tax. Just like gas taxes, you do not know how much of the cost of a product you purchase consists of taxes.
No argument and that is why we need to do away with like taxes now.
The Government will tax the manufacturers' or the shippers' "added value," which is opaque and obscure.
The "Government" is us. If we allow them to sometime in the future, how is that an argument for not instituting an NRST today to achieve what we can? The "Government" can do alot of things as long as we let them or encourage them, thats up to us and the kind of representation we choose to put in place now isn't it.
(3) The point is, we just like we don't know what the tax on gasoline is, we won't know the VAT tax rate.
That describes now. Not the situation under an NRST.
Taxes will sneak up on us in the dead of the night, and we'll wake up with a Euro style social state.
"Eternal Vigilence" and exercising or responsibilities as citizens is the key to that. That still is not a reason to not implement a fully visible NRST now.
100% of your money is already double taxed... at income and at spending of ANY type.
Under the nrst, the income level taxation is eliminated, but the spending level stays.
But only certain spending is taxed. EG if you buy a home that has already been lived in. Further, if you want to give some of your money away there'd be no tax. If you want to leave some money to heirs, there'd be no tax.
In fact, if you were an astute investor, you would already know that you have to pay taxes anytime you spend your savings. However, under the nrst, that tax is lessened.
A "little"? HAHAHAHA
BTW your double taxation objection is not valid.
I am poor and I am elderly.
I get less than the poverty level of $8590 a year from SS.
The $165 prebate a month would really help me.
You're easily spotted.
Currently, we enjoy ZERO protection against being saddled with both an income tax and a sales tax. It's already legal. It could be implemented overnight.
After passage of HR25, there would be obstacles to having both... obstacles which do not currently exist. Hence, if you fear having both taxes, you do not oppose the nrst on the grounds you state. As I said, you're easily spotted.
The nrst
1) eliminates withholding
2) defunds the IRS
3) destroys all existing income tax records, save those delinquent
4) erases the entire income tax code from law.
Now, FreedomCalls, there may be a politician that proposes that we re-implement withholding, and there may even be a few pols that will go along with him/her... unless they want to keep their job.
Who would stand up and say, "let's spend 2 billion on an IRS again"? Hmmmmm....
With all existing income tax records destroyed, how could income taxes be re-implemented? We'd volunteer our information? lol.
Employers would have to start withholding again. Yeah, they'd be up for that...not.
And who will write the new income tax laws (the old ones are gone, remember?)? Who will vote for the income tax to be reimplemented... certainly not anyone who wants to be re-elected.
All those things will be obstacles to overcome once the nrst is passed. We currently have NO obstacles in the way of having both taxes.
Regardless, it is fundamentally immoral to tax income. Look into HJR 45. It's an amendment that repeals the 16th AND makes the taxation of any kind of income unconstitutional.
But you knew all this, didn't you?
To say nothing of H&R Block.
Prices of taxable goods won't change. Spend ten minutes at fairtax.org or salestax.org.
FWIW, HRBLockhead supports this measure.
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