Church's sign has Muslims outraged -''Jesus Forbade Murder. Muhammad Approved Murder. Surah 8:65.''

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[chance33_98]

Church's sign has Muslims outraged

Florida pastor says criticism of Islam is legal and fair

Associated Press Friday, January 17, 2003

Jacksonville --- The Council on American-Islamic Relations-Florida is calling on state religious leaders to repudiate a Jacksonville Baptist church's roadside sign the group claims is anti-Muslim.

The sign outside the First Conservative Baptist Church in Jacksonville's Mandarin area reads: ''Jesus Forbade Murder. Matthew 26:52. Muhammad Approved Murder. Surah 8:65.''

Altaf Ali, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations-Florida, said his organization attempted to talk with the Baptist church's officials about the sign, but were rebuffed with belligerent language.

''All Americans must band together to condemn hate speech designed to divide our nation along religious and ethnic lines,'' Ali said. ''Any attempt to marginalize or vilify one religious community is an attack on all people of faith.''

The church's pastor, the Rev. Gene Youngblood, who also leads the Conservative Theological Society and Conservative Christian Academy, said he has been using the marquee-type sign to express the church's opinion for 15 years and has no plans to remove the message.

''First and foremost, are we not entitled to freedom of speech?'' Youngblood said.

Youngblood, who said he is an expert on world religions, said he had been threatened and his property vandalized. He said he has filed 13 police reports since July.

Youngblood said his church would issue a formal statement later.

Iman Zaid Malik, spiritual leader of the Islamic Center of Northeast Florida, said some Christian friends brought the offensive sign to his attention.

''Misinformation must be rejected by all people of conscience,'' Malik said. ''This shows that the vast majority of Americans reject hate and seek a society where good overcomes the evil.''

Malik said the Quran verse indicates that those who believe and are steadfast in battle will overcome much larger armies. It is not an endorsement of murder, he said.

The verse reads: ''O Prophet [Muhammad]! Inspire the believers to conquer all fear of death when fighting, [so that] if there be twenty of you who are patient in adversity, they might overcome two hundred; and if there be one hundred of you, they might overcome one-thousand of those bent on denying the truth, because they are people who cannot grasp it.''

The Council on American-Islamic Relations said the Quran also states, ''whoever murders a person . . . it will be as if he killed all mankind, and whoever saves a life, shall be regarded as if he saved all mankind.''

ON THE WEB: Council on American-Islamic Relations-Florida: www.cair-florida.org

First Conservative Baptist Church: www.conservative.edu/main.htm

[aruanan]

Where in the New Testament (the BASIS for Christianity) does it condone genocide?

1. I thought the 10 Commandments was the foundation that Christitantity was built on. That is in the OT, unless I am sorely mistaken.

The OT admonitions to kill the Amelekites were for then and only them.

2. And the limitation and conditions for this are all contained in a single verse? Or may a Muslum plaster a single incriminating verse on a billboard as this pastor did?

1. They are in the OT, but you're sorely mistaken about the foundation of Christianity (look at the word). The giving of the law and the prophets (the 10 Commandments contained in the law) wasn't the foundation of Christianity. It was the fulfilling of the Law and the Prophets and who fulfilled them that provided the foundation for Christianity (like Peter and his statement about Jesus being the Christ, the son of the living G-d that Jesus said was the rock upon which he would build his church--sounds pretty foundational to me). From the Christian perspective, the Law and the Prophets were site preparation for the laying of the foundation that was Jesus. That said, there is nothing genocidal in the 10 Commandments.

The 10 Commandments is a summation of moral law, though Jesus gave an even more condensed version: "Love the Lord your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Mt 22:37-40; Paul boiled it down even farther: "Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law." Romans 13:8 and "...and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law" Romans13:9-10.

2. Pretty much. It's clearly stated who, what, when, where, and why. It's not a general exhortation as is the citation from the Koran. Besides, you're straining at "verse". Verse notation was added relatively recently. But here are a couple of verses you won't see in the Koran:

1. As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith. Galatians 6:10

2. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Romans 12:18

Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, Basic Christianity by John Stott, and The God Who Is There by Francis Schaeffer together provide a fairly comprehensive look at the basic Christian worldview. Mere Christianity will put it in the context of moral reasoning and the historical types of religious worldview (monism vs dualism; polytheism, pantheism, monotheism). Basic Christianity is more an explanation of the central teachings of Christianity the removal of any of which would result in something not Christian. The God Who Is There describes Christianity in the context of the development of the post-Christian philosophical worldview over the past three hundred years or so.

[chance33_98]

That's nice. Grab yourself a Koran (Penguin Classics has one that's reputable)

Or they can download it free from Project Gutenberg which has thousands of works free to download online. A great resource for those wanting copies of everything from the bible to just about anything.

[Guillermo]

That's what I said. The fulfillment of the law (ie, the NT) is what Christianity is based on.

[Guillermo]

And, to anyone who says the NT is not the basis of Christianity, how can one become a Christian without knowing it? The way to become one and remain one is contained there and only there, not in the OT, not in the Koran, not in the writings of Confuscius.

[Luis Gonzalez]

You are following the interpretation of the Qu'ran taught by the redical extremists of the Wahabbi sect of Islam, that's NOT what the Qu'ran tells Muslims to do.

It instructs its followers to defend themselves when attacked, but it also forbids killing non-combatants.

I suggest that you listen to the archived copy of my interview with the Executive Director of the Islamic Supreme Council of America and learn about the issue from the side of the majority of Muslims. I'm not asking anyone to convert, but to understand the issue, and read beyond the rhetoric.

Did you know that Muslims await the second coming of Jesus Christ?

[headsonpikes]

apparently.

[aruanan]

And, to anyone who says the NT is not the basis of Christianity, how can one become a Christian without knowing it?

Well, there were all those first century Christians who didn't have the New Testament but just one or the other apostles (or their friends or associates, ie., Mark, Luke) who at one time or another wrote a letter or one of the gospels. But these writings were to instruct them in the faith they already had in Jesus. The preaching about Jesus was done on the basis of telling how he fulfilled the Law and the Prophets by referring to the Old Testament prophecies about him. That verse about faith coming by hearing and hearing by the word of G-d wasn't referring to the NT because it didn't exist then. Paul's telling Timothy about the relevance of scripture to the Christian life was referring principally to the OT.

People in the first century to whom the letters and gospels were written already had an understanding of how Jesus fulfilled the OT prophecies about him. Look at Paul's practice of speaking about Jesus in the synagogues. Look at Phillip's instruction of the Ethiopian eunuch. Neither of them relied on the then-non-existent NT to show them why and in whom they should believe. Because of this, most of the NT was written assuming the readers already knew these things. People who rely exclusively upon the NT may have the distillate, but they're missing out on everything that took place to get things to that point.

[secretagent]

Thanks. I've got some online Korans now bookmarked.

[secretagent]

Thanks for the Quran link!

[SpringheelJack]

I said: That's the story of humanity - the lust to control, dominate, and repress.

Freebilly replied in sarcasm: That's correct, and I notice in most parts of the world Christians are being the ones to do most of the controlling, dominating, and repressing.

Not now, but they certainly went through their extreme, murderous zealot phase during the era of the Crusades ( c. 1100-c. 1300). Judaism as well fostered a savage, murderous and suicidal fanaticism during the 1st and early 2nd centuries - their behavior during the Jewish Revolt and the immediate years leading up to it is little different from what the Palestinians are doing now. And currently Islam is in that stage.

My point is that this is not primarily a specific religious problem, but an innate human problem. Like the Christians of the 11th century, and the Jews of the 1st century, Islam in the 21st century is mired in a period of resentment and grievance, which is exorcising itself in violence. Even the arguments are the same: 1st century Jew: "the infidels are occupying the Holy Land", 11th century Christian: "the infidels are occupying the Holy Land," 21st century Muslim: "the infidels are occupying the Holy Land".

Modern Islam is a cultural and economic backwater, and will remain that way as long as its practitioners blame others for their lack of status, and seek to dominate and humble a much more powerful foe.

[FreedomCalls]

Thanks for the Quran link!

And it's searchable by word. Try searching on "kill," "slay," "slaughter," and words like that. You may (or may not) be surprised.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

[secretagent]

Yes, and the search function responds when I enter chapter numbers.

Now I can verify sensational quotes.

[TomGuy]

Online etext links for the Koran

University of Virginia, searchable

Links to several different translations and studies

[freebilly]

Not now, but they certainly went through their extreme, murderous zealot phase during the era of the Crusades ( c. 1100-c. 1300).

I forgot, defense of Christian lives and property was "murderous zealotry" during the Crusades....

[freebilly]

Even the arguments are the same: 1st century Jew: "the infidels are occupying the Holy Land", 11th century Christian: "the infidels are occupying the Holy Land," 21st century Muslim: "the infidels are occupying the Holy Land".

Hmmm..., let's see, in the 1st Century the Roman, Titus, destroys Jerusalem, desecrates the Temple, and kills Jews trying to flee the city, but in your mind the Jews were upset because "infidels were occupying the Holy Land."

In the 11th Century, The Holy Sepulchre of Christ and all Christian establishments in Jerusalem were destroyed by Moslems, and all Christians in Jerusalem were killed or persecuted, but in your mind the Crusades were undertaken because "infidels were occupying the Holy Land."

Today, Moslems strap bombs to themselves and murder innocent civilians and fly jets in buildings, and you have the nerve to say they have the same claim that Jews had 2000 years ago and Christians had 1000 years ago.

Your grasp of history and reality is truly amazing....

[freebilly]

Did you know that Muslims await the second coming of Jesus Christ?

So what? They also teach that Judas died on the Cross, not Christ. They're not waiting for the Second Coming of that Christ who willingly died on the Cross so that all men might be free....

[FreedomCalls]

You can browse by chapters too. It makes it easy to put quotes in context.

[FreedomCalls]

And just 50 years ago there was a Christian country in the Middle East. Now no one even thinks of it as Christian or even part-Christian. That's how well the Muslims have succeeded in perpetrating the myth that the Holy Land belongs to them. 50 years ago Lebanon was a Christian country -- the Switzerland of the Middle East.

[secretagent]

Thanks.

[freebilly]

Yeah, Lebanon was turned into a wasteland by violent Christians....