Fearing for lives, Jews in France flee

The Detroit News ^ | January 17 2003 | Jocelyn Gecker/AP

[MWS]

Tell you what: why don't you just tell us what you think the problem is, then. Otherwise, if this is leading where I and a few others here seem to suspect, you had best drop it.

[FreeReporting]

I can only suppose that the answer that you are looking for is that Jews are disgusting (perhaps an odour that only righteous people can detect?).

Oy Vey! An Osama wannabe on FreeRepublic. What country are you from? Your spelling of "odour" should reveal the answer unless it is a typo.

Shalom putupon. I suppose I should have included a "sarcasm" label, but assumed that all freerepublicans would have understood my drift.

[putupon]

Yeah I should have. I've had people go off on me for the same reason.

Now if you want to go into the odors of the French without the < sarcasm >, that would be OK.

[wingnuts'nbolts]

With Europe's track record of decimating it's Jewish populations over the last millineum I would pack up and leave too. Israel welcomes them, sad to have to leave everything and go for such a reason.

[Alouette]

a large part of the bloodshed is due to Sharon. The real jump in killing seem to occur after his ascendency.....But I don't want to argue over my opinion on this subject.

Well, too bad. Don't say wrong things and expect to not be corrected.

The current killings began on Barak's watch, or more specifically, on Clinton's watch. Just remember who offered 98% of the West Bank and dismantling of "all the settlements" for an "independent state" and who shoved over the negotiating table and ran out screaming. Remember the two guys who took a wrong turn and got torn to pieces by a crazed mob. If you can't tell the difference between a "reason" and an "excuse" please refer to the link in my previous post.

[KC_for_Freedom]

You don't need to delve into theology to find the answer:

In europe Jews were slaughtered (disliked if you will) for being successful and Hitler needed a target to unite the NAZI party.

In Amerinca Jews cling to socialism and pacifism and thus earn our dislike.

In the middle east the moslims like to believe that if the land equivilence of Israel's postage stamp to the arab world's football field were wiped out then they would experience a return to the age of the hanging gardens of Babalon and be revered around the world again.

Its not more difficult than that.

[knighthawk]

By Rabbi Meir Kahane

Dear World,

It appears that you are hard to please. I understand that you are upset over us here in Israel. Indeed, it appears that you are quite upset, even angry and outraged. Indeed, every few years you seem to become upset over us. Today, it is the brutal repression of the Palestinians; yesterday, it was Lebanon; before that it was the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Baghdad and the Yom Kippur War campaign. It appears that Jews who triumph, and who therefore, live, upset you most extraordinarily.

Of course, dear world, long before there was an Israel, we the Jewish people upset you. We upset a German people, who elected a Hitler and we upset an Austrian people, who cheered his entry into Vienna and we upset a whole slew of Slavic nations - Poles, Slovaks, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Russians, Hungarians, Romanians.

And we go back a long, long way in history of world upset. We upset the Cossacks of Chmielnicki, who massacred tens of thousands of us in 1648-49; we upset the Crusaders, who on their way to liberate the Holy Land, were so upset at Jews that they slaughtered untold numbers of us. We upset, for centuries, a Roman Catholic Church that did its best to define our relationship through Inquisitions. And we upset the arch-enemy of the church, Martin Luther, who in his call to burn the synagogues and the Jews within them, showed an admirable Christian ecumenical spirit.

It is because we became so upset over upsetting you, dear world, that we decided to leave you - in a manner of speaking - and establish a Jewish State. The reasoning was that living in close contact with you, as resident-strangers in the various countries that comprise you, we upset you, irritate you, and disturb you. What better notion, then, than to leave you and thus love you - and have you love us? And so we decided to come home, to the same homeland from which we were driven out 1,900 years earlier by a Roman world that, apparently, we also upset.

Alas, dear world, it appears that you are hard to please. Having left you and your Pogroms and Inquisitions and Crusades and Holocausts, having taken our leave of the general world to live alone in our own little state, we continue to upset you.

You are upset that we repress the Palestinians. You are deeply angered over the fact that we do not give up the lands of 1967, which are clearly the obstacle to peace in the Middle East. Moscow is upset and Washington is upset. The Arabs are upset and the gentle Egyptian moderates are upset.

Well, dear world, consider the reaction of a normal Jew from Israel. In 1920, 1921 and 1929, there were no territories of 1967 to impede peace between Jews and Arabs. Indeed, there was no Jewish State to upset anybody. Nevertheless, the same oppressed and repressed Palestinians slaughtered hundreds of Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Safed and Hebron. Indeed, 67 Jews were slaughtered one day in Hebron in 1929.

Dear world, why did the Arabs - the Palestinians - massacre 67 Jews in one day in 1929? Could it have been their anger over Israeli aggression in 1967? And why were 510 Jewish men, women and children slaughtered in Arab riots in 1936-39? Was it because of Arab upset over 1967? And when you, World, proposed a U.N. Partition Plan in 1947 that would have created a Palestinian State alongside a tiny Israel and the Arabs cried and went to war and killed 6,000 Jews - was that upset stomach caused by the aggression of 1967? And, by the way, dear world, why did we not hear your cry of upset then?

The Palestinians who today kill Jews with explosives and firebombs and stones are part of the same people who - when they had all the territories they now demand be given them for their state - attempted to drive the Jewish State into the sea. The same twisted faces, the same hate, the same cry of "idbah-al-yahud" - "Slaughter the Jews!" that we hear and see today, were seen and heard then. The same people, the same dream - destroy Israel.

What they failed to do yesterday, they dream of today - but we should not "repress" them. Dear world, you stood by the Holocaust and you stood by in 1948 as seven states launched a war that the Arab League proudly compared to the Mongol massacres. You stood by in 1967 as Nasser, wildly cheered by wild mobs in every Arab capital in the world, vowed to drive the Jews into the sea. And you would stand by tomorrow if Israel were facing extinction.

And since we know that the Arabs-Palestinians daily dream of that extinction, we will do everything possible to remain alive in our own land. If that bothers you, dear world, well - think of how many times in the past you bothered us.

In any event, dear world, if you are bothered by us, here is one Jew in Israel who could not care less.

[Hank Kerchief]

You wrote : "How come there isn't a "Jewish Council"?" That's completely false. Don't write if you don't know !

http://www.crif.org

You are probably right. How about this? Does France subsidize synagogues?

Secular France mulls mosque subsidies

Hank

[rmvh]

Re your # 121

In case you can't read or comprehend very well...My simple, straightforward, and reasoned question was perfectly anwered in prior posts....and acknowledged as such.

[rmvh]

re your # 125

My understanding is that there is a large percentage of the Jewish population, in Israel, who would like to see Sharon replaced.....and it seems many of these people are not ill informed....Whether you like it or not, opinion pertaining to the quality of a national leader, any national leader, is never universal admiration.

[NativeNewYorker]

The French have made their choice: Islamicist barbarism vs. Judaic integration. We all know where this leads.

[mamelukesabre]

I'm not jewish and I don't dislike jews. I have jewish friends and my best buddy married a jewish girl. I live in iowa and used to live in nebraska.

I think it is fairly easy to see why the jews are so hated all around the world. The simple answer is that they refuse to assimilate. They view themselves as guests in the land that they live and they are just there to get what they can and improve thier situation as much as they can for the time being. But they have no emotional ties to the land, or the nation, or the people or the culture that exists around them. They have no desire to fit in or to understand or learn anything about the people(non jews) around them. They have no desire to let the people around them get to know them. They seem to view non jews as simply part of the landscape. Non jews are just part of the environment, like a forest, that is tied to the land and has been there forever and never changes.....kind of like the way college kids think of "townies".

The day that things are not so good, they(jews) pull up and leave. The jews are despised in a way that is very similar to the way that townies despise the college kids in a small college town.

The fact that jews seem to prosper to a greater extent than the rest of us only makes them hated even more, but it is not the core reason.

The reason why the germans hated jews so much in the days of, and prior to WWII, is precisely this that I have explained. The jews in germany were not disliked at first. They were welcomed to germany. The germans welcomed them with open arms and were eager to "make them into germans". The problem was that the jews had no desire to become germans. THe germans felt they had been snubbed....and that's because they were. The jews formed their own society and shut out the germans. The jews had no feelings of nationalism or pride in the country as the germans did. The jews refused to fight in wars for their country. They behaved as gypsies that had just set up a temporary settlement in germany and would be moving on again someday.

So why should the germans not like the jews? The jews were the college brats and the germans were the townies. Of course they would not like eachother.

Of course, I am speaking in terms of broad generalizations. Many individuals do not fit the generalization, but I beleive the generalization is not an inaccurate one.

[mamelukesabre]

Mormons have less troubles because they are less insular.

Mormons don't have their own unique language. Mormons don't require that their children marry mormons. Mormons gleefully accept converts and even actively recruit. Mormons have very strong emotional and historical ties to the land that they inhabit. Mormons have a long history of participating in military and other quasi-military institions. Mormons are very patriotic. Mormons are true americans through and through.

Jews seem to lack these characteristics.

[rmlew]

Sorry, but you are ill informed.

Jews have always assimilated into the common culture, once teh legal restrictions preventing them from doing so ended. Thus once they were emancipated in Europe, many Jews did integrate into French, German, Austrian, Hungarian..... societies. Many (including most of my family) went to public or non-Jewish schools and stopped speaking Yiddish. They served in the armies and in all forms of public life. Jews disporprotionately served in and dies in European armies in WWI.
Unfortunately, the nationalist movements refused to accept Jews. For instance, many Jews were origionally involved int he Hungarian and Polish Independence movements, only to be betrayed in 1848. Many German Jews were part of the 1848 attempt to unify Germany under a Liberal Constitutional Monarchy.

After World War I, Jews were very prominent in the Weimar Republic. That is one of the things Hitler ralled against.

The fact is that anti-Semties will hate Ghetto Jews, Court Jews, and assimilated Jews. Some will also hate Jews who converted to Christianity.

Ron.

PS. Take a look at American Jews. We are very integrated.

[Temple Owl]

Try reading "Berlin Diary" and also "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" both by William Shirer. They are both very good.

[Michael81Dus]

Yes, correct. Jews always tried to become a full part of a society - not like these parallele societies of Muslims in european cities.

[MWS]

My apologies then. It seemed to me that you were saying that the answers that were being given were not adequate enough for you, and I thought you were implying something that perhaps you were not. I guess I misunderstood your responses.

[sneakypete]

I think it is fairly easy to see why the jews are so hated all around the world. The simple answer is that they refuse to assimilate.

I don't agree. The fact is that historically they never had the chance to assimilate. They were pretty much forced to live in ghettos so that they didn't "contaminate" the thoughts of Christians. They were hated because they didn't agree that Jesus is the Messiah,and the Catholic Church saw that as a threat.

They view themselves as guests in the land that they live and they are just there to get what they can and improve thier situation as much as they can for the time being. But they have no emotional ties to the land, or the nation, or the people or the culture that exists around them.They have no desire to fit in or to understand or learn anything about the people(non jews) around them.

Are we talking about Jews or Mexicans?

They seem to view non jews as simply part of the landscape. Non jews are just part of the environment, like a forest, that is tied to the land and has been there forever and never changes.....kind of like the way college kids think of "townies".The day that things are not so good, they(jews) pull up and leave.

I agree that there seems to be a certain amount of truth in this.

The fact that jews seem to prosper to a greater extent than the rest of us only makes them hated even more, but it is not the core reason.

I agree that they seem to prosper more than "the rest of us",but that is to their credit,and our shame. They profit because they believe in education,hard work,and helping one another. The "Golden Rule" of the white man seems to be "Screw YOU,ME first!". The "rest of us" would be a hell of a lot better off if we were to act more like them in some respects.

The problem was that the jews had no desire to become germans.

Tell that to somebody who doesn't know better. Most of the German Jews very much wanted to be Germans,they just didn't want to stop being Jews,also.

The jews formed their own society and shut out the germans.

That is one way to look at their tendency to circle their wagons so they spend their time helping each other. As for forming their own "society",again they had no choice. This is because they weren't Christians,and didn't go to Church with the Christian Germans. Have you formed your own society to shut out "Hindu-Americans"? If not,why don't you have more Hindu-American friends and in-laws? See how this works?

The jews had no feelings of nationalism or pride in the country as the germans did.

Well,ya gotta admit it is hard to feel much solidarity with a government that compares you to rats. The Jews in Germany before WW-2 did do things like join the army though,and they were proud of being Germans. And why not? Germans of the pre-WW-2 period were considered to be a sophisticated and educated people.

The jews refused to fight in wars for their country. They behaved as gypsies that had just set up a temporary settlement in germany and would be moving on again someday.

This is utter nonsense if you are speaking about the pre-WW-2 German Jews. MANY joined the German Army and fought in WW-1. I agree when this is applied to most "modern" Jews,though. There are damn few Jews in the US military,for example. The fact that they are allowed to hold commissions in the Israeli Army while avoiding service in the US Army is personally VERY galling to me. In MY opinion,if they aren't willing to fight for America,but are willing to fight for Israel,they need to put their asses where their hearts are,and good riddance!

[KC_for_Freedom]

You may have a valid point, assimilation is not part of every Jews make up. Nor do they readily convert, something that has made them outcast by the Muslims and early Christians. I am Jewish and very assimilated, also very conservative and not at all in tune with most of the "assimilated" reform Jews who are socialist democrats. The Jews who keep to themselves are more likely to be orthodox and keep to themselves as part of living a kosher lifestyle, which can be quite a challenge if one does not have community to support.

That is why in my post I alluded to the Jews losing favor with some because of their pacifist and socialistic views which here in America will render us weak both militarily and economically. I was not posting for European Jews, but as you pointed out, they were pacifist in those wars too.

The German situation was partly envy and partly Hitler, but as a people the Jews moving into Germany did not do enough to become "German". However many went to the gas chambers thinking they were loyal Germans and wondering how their G-d could have forsaken them so completely. Of course there is also the problem of becoming nationalist when that meant giving voice to supporting Hitler and what he stood for. It is doubtful that many Jews would be welcomed by their community wearing the Brown Shirts of Hitler's youth groups.

Jews however are taught loyalty first to their current country and secondly to Israel. I don't know many Jews who simply "pull up and leave" when the going gets tough. Sorry. For example, Jews in America have no problem with the Scout Oath with its priority of duty to G-d, country, and self. If Jews had a hard time in America would they immigrate to Israel where they would face greater hardship and danger? I don't see that many leaving.

Incidently, you post would indicate that the Muslims will have a hard time being liked as well, they assimilate even less than the Jews.

[bvw]

Alouette has answered you very well. Go pour a great single malt straight up -- a toast to Life! -- let it snuggle in and warm your veins. Then read through the web essay at her link.