If you believe that people are basically good ?

WorldNetDaily.com ^ | Tuesday, December 31, 2002 | Dennis Prager

[dennisw]

btttttttttttttt

[PGalt]

Well stated.

[nathanbedford]

It is a little inconvenient for liberals, though, if you want to force accomodation to homosexuality by arguing that it is exclusively a genetic orientation.

[AppyPappy]

Liberals believe THEY are all good but everyone else is bad

Conservatives believe that everyone is basically evil and that's we need protection.

Libertarians believe that it cannot be known so we should only stop people after they have shown themselves to be evil.

[BibChr]

As often is the case, I disagree with "deep" Dennis.

But that's because I believe in the Torah — all of it.

People are born sinners, not neutral.

Dan

[BoneHead]

I attended Jewish religious schools (yeshivas) until the age of 18, and aside from being taught that moral rules come from God rather than from personal or world opinion, this was the greatest difference between my education and those who attended public and private secular schools. They learned that their greatest struggles were with society, and I learned that the greatest struggle was with me, and my natural inclinations to laziness, insatiable appetites and self-centeredness.

Dan
If he had included sinfullness wouldn't you have been in accord with this point of Pragers?

I thought that he was remarkably right on.

Regards
Bonehead

[Valin]

I had a flight chief in Korea who once gave me a very important piece of advice.
Hope for the best..expect the worst. Over the years I've found this to be very helpful in dealing with people.

[BibChr]

Oh yes, you're right; it's statements like that that got Prager his reputation. He gleams and glitters occasionally. But he has some serious epistemological problems at his very foundation, and they keep tripping him up.

Dan

[Kevin Curry]

People are inherently people.

And people are inherently evil. That is, the natural man is inherently evil. On the other hand, most people individually believe they are good. People cope with this klang and dissonance between the reality of their depravity and their self-perception that they are fundamentally good by externalizing the evil onto others or by rationalizing their own motives and behavior.

Go to DU and read their posts. The liberals posting there are convinced their hearts are noble and pure. They truly believe they are good people--perhaps the only good people. On the other hand, DU'ers know conservatives--especially conservative Christians--are base and evil.

DU'ers and other liberals excuse Bill Clinton's sexual depravity and Hillary Clinton's (whom they perceive to be a reflection of themselves) abuse of power by imaging them also to be good, empathetic, compassionate people who only want to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and uplift the downtrodden. Never mind that they are stealing from more efficient citizens and sources and creating ever-larger classes of "victims" through their stupidity and hubris. Through the jujitsu of self-deception they persuade themselves that they are more Christ-like than Christ. After all, which of them would ever say something as "cruel" as "leave the dead to bury their dead"? No, thay are convinced that through the bloody expedient of gross government extortion they can forcibly create the good and just society that Christ "failed" to deliver.

And if social regressives such as conservative Christians (who truly understand the mystery of the Kingdom and are loathe to accept a human-made substitute) get in the way? In their heart of hearts, they would like nothing better than to eliminate them as enemies of mankind--if they could get away with it. That was Stalin's view of Christianity, too.

As for me, I am not deceived about the depravity of the human heart. I know, I am painfully reminded every day, of the natural man. I don't expect the perfection in others that I cannot achieve myself, but neither do I excuse their depravity and imagine they are fundamentally good. Rather, I know that the best of them is struggling.

[xJones]

McGuffey.

They used to teach morality in school.

Excerpt: The original 1836 version of the fabled reading instruction books which for three-quarters of a century were used by four-fifths of all American school children. Some 120 million sets were sold. No other books ever had so much influence over so many children over such a long period.

Good stuff with excellent phonetics and basic arithmetic. The books taught that "with Adam's fall, we sinned all" (introduction to the letter A, for instance) and the need to cultivate good qualities. McGuffey never assumed that children were born innocent, he knew they had to be taught such things as charity and mercy, and to avoid things like stealing, lying, etc. The McGuffey Readers did a great job of basic elementary education for 75 years.

[NittanyLion]

Humans are, by nature, selfish. Capitalism creates a system were individuals promoting their own selfish interests inherently, if indirectly, benefit others.

Exactly. And often, those with noble intentions cause great damage because they cannot understand the unforeseen impact of their actions. That is why we must encourage individuals to act in their own self-interest, even when it may seem to be a better idea if we force them into "charitable acts" (redistributing their wealth, for one).

[veronica]

I want to believe people all people are basically good, but it's a struggle to do so these days. I often think of the wisdom of Anne Frank, who penned this in her diary, as Jews and others were being murdered in the death camps and she was in hiding:

"In spite of everything I still believe that people are really good at heart. I simply can't build up my hopes on a foundation consisting of confusion, misery and death."

---Anne Frank

I tell myself that if she could think it, under the circumstances in which she found herself, who am I to doubt man's goodness? Yet, she died in a death camp eventually, so where did all her faith in man's goodness get her?

I struggle with all this yet, more so than ever in the shadow of 9-11.

[Lessismore]

People are inherently evil.

A free economy, based on individual ownership, harnesses individual greed to achieve collective prosperity.

A constitutional republic balances the branches of government and the state/federal division to harness the will to power.

The genius of both is that they depend only on man's nature as it naturally occurs, and do not depend on any religous or moral awakening.

[cake_crumb]

Well, not really...some people are born good...which has more to do with the structure upon which their basic personality is built (the human brain, containing genetis material from both parents) than in anything else...and some people are likewise born with a tendency toward what we call evil, for the same reason.

The bulk of people....depends on the how that basic personality and intelligence is trained.

[harpseal]

The Noble Savage seeks to serve mankind. Unfortunately since the savage has not learned a taboo against canibalism, he seeks to serve mankind properly seasoned and cooked to the perfection as his dinner.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown - Happy New Year

[NCLaw441]

I agree with your conclusions, but not your introductory statement. I believe that people, without guidance, are inclined to selfish and violent behavior, unless raised to behave otherwise. One of the first word learned by children is "Mine." Left to their own devices, young children will use the strength available to them to take what they want from others. Those without strength will cry for what they want. People ARE inherently people, but that evades the fact of our natural selfish nature (I might not go so far as to say evil, though.) It is through the diligent upbringing by caring parents and (I believe) a church community (maybe it DOES take a village, just not Hillary's village) that otherwise selfish people are trained to love God and one another, resulting, ultimately, in that which IS in the best interest of the individual and the community.

[ecomcon]

What a great thread. This is why I love FR.

[dennisw]

And some are born bad to the bone.

http://freepers.zill.net/users/dennisw_fr/pages/bloody_hands_dec_26_2002.htm

[fporretto]

Nonsense. Dangerous nonsense at that. To believe Man inherently good lays oneself open for victimzation, but to believe Man inherently evil is far worse. It's internally contradictory, an assumption of a license to pronounce moral condemnation while simultaneously declaring oneself to be condemnable! And of course, all moral condemnations include a license to destroy.

Is it not clear that, if there are moral absolutes in the world, which there surely are, then all gradations of human progress in the moral realm require an ability to perceive differences in moral stature? That such differences are impossible to separate from the idea of "better" and "worse" -- and that the privilege of judging remains with those on the "better" end?

What would any moral judgment be worth, if we were all inherently evil? Each of us could point to the permanent fault of being human as exculpation for all his deeds -- and no human being would possess the elevation to argue with him!

Is it not clear that one could not even aspire to moral improvement if one were inherently evil, any more than one could be subject to temptation if one were inherently good? That the joined need and ability to struggle against temptations to abuse one's fellows is testimony to a divided nature, a nature of parts, neither inherently good nor evil?

I reject all categorical classifications of Man. It does immense harm to attribute to our shared natures what should be marked down to the weakness of individual wills. That's quite as bad as any other form of collectivism, and lead to results just as catastrophic. Christianity, a faith which exhorts us to nurture our better natures and resist our worse ones, and to encourage the same in others by example, has no place for such a thing. It gives our opponents the raw material they need to portray us as hateful bigots and prigs, with neither charity nor mercy in our souls.

Freedom, Wealth, and Peace,
Francis W. Porretto
Visit The Palace Of Reason:
http://www.palaceofreason.com

[cake_crumb]

"This is why liberals loathe believing christians. This is why liberals are collectivists and conservatives are individualists. This is why the Democrat party slices and dices the electorate into groups."

...Their brainwashing was a success. Individulists are more resistent to conditioning.