Engineering Grad Looking for work -- Where are the Jobs???

Engineering Discussion Board 12-27-2002 ^ | FR Post Christmas 2002 | Various

[vannrox]

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AskMen.com Message Boards     > Career, Power & Money         > New Engineering grad: Are there any jobs??
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j455b2 Registered User Posts: 158 (8/28/02 11:18:30 pm) Reply	New Engineering grad: Are there any jobs?? Hi I finished my electrical engineering studies in the month of may. Before the end of my studies and until now, I have been actively looking for a job. I havent had much success, just 2 interviews. Most of my fellow graduates are in the same situation. I live in Canada where the job market is supposedly better than in the US presently. But when I hear that companies like Nortel laid off 60 % of their workforce and are going to lay off 7000 more people, I start to wonder: Who the hell is gonna hire a recent graduate if so many experienced ppl are available?? I am not desperate yet but I cant say that my resume is rock solid. I had decent grades but my work experience related to the field is obviously lacking. I try to compensate with my course work etc... What is sad is that just 2 years ago, these same companies were literally hiring by the truckload! 45k CAN $ (which is a lot of money in a city with low cost of living like Montreal) for entry-level engineers. In 2 months I am going to start to apply all over the country and "exile" myself . Is that the only way to get a first job? Start off in some kind of small shop in Saskatchewan??
a lady now Registered User Posts: 408 (8/29/02 8:49:50 am) Reply	Re: New Engineering grad: Are there any jobs?? Electrical Engineers are in demand in the states. You should have no problem catching on if you come here. Look at Monster.com and you will see
energyaz Registered User Posts: 2289 (8/30/02 3:36:24 pm) Reply	Re: New Engineering grad: Are there any jobs?? Electrical Engineers are in demand in the states - Yes they are. So much so that most of them are being hired out of India or the middle east cause these guys will work for pennies. Why hire an American or Canuck and pay them $60k + when you can get one from a 3rd world country who will do back flips for $30k? Sad, sick and lame. I cant stand it -Energy who works onsite at Honeywell aerospace....and 80% of our engineers are foregin nationals. I am embarrased and worried that if we keep outsoursing our white collar workforce from India and Pakistan...our economy and future is shot Congrats on your graduation!! Good luck! I wish you the best! I would be soooooo happy if Honeywell started hiring Canadians over Indians.....not a racial thing, but lets keep the jobs avail to the people who are actually FROM this hemisphere!
Audio58 Registered User Posts: 1 (9/9/02 12:02:08 pm) Reply	Engineering positions Yes there are many engineeing positions availible in the US, but they all require 3-5 years experience. I worked for an RF semiconductor company for 13 years while attending school at night. I received my Electronic Engineering degree in 2000, and got a job as a design engineer, but was laid-off at the end of 2001. I have been unemployed now for almost 10 months.
GQ Chris Registered User Posts: 783 (9/9/02 6:42:12 pm) Reply	Dude, here's an idea to get hired.... Move to India, learn to like curry chicken and kabobs, and apply for Indian citizenship. Then apply for an American engineering position, you might get a better shot then. Its pathetic, and somebody's got to put a stop to all this outsourcing of labor.
ryanjb2 Registered User Posts: 1378 (9/9/02 8:26:30 pm) Reply	Re: Trying to emigrate to India? They'd laugh you right out of the embassy. Immigration only goes one way in this world.
lovetolearn Registered User Posts: 2073 (9/10/02 9:26:53 pm) Reply	err... ryan, GQ Chris was being facetious in his comment regarding emigrating to India. His reason, of course, is that there are so many INdians in computers and engineering right now, and that clearly bothers him.
ryanjb2 Registered User Posts: 1393 (9/11/02 1:32:26 pm) Reply	Re: I know, and I was utilizing his comment to insert a political commentary. I do this all the time, some find it annoying....
GQ Chris Registered User Posts: 810 (9/13/02 10:07:53 am) Reply	Re:What really sucks is Talented American Engineers become.. S.O.L. when it comes to finding full time technical work, that actually pays them what they're worth. Really blows away the traditional theory that if you want a good paying job, you've got to work hard in school and get a degree. Nowadays, there's no stability at all, its just a fight for survival, and very limited opportunity. Now more than ever, companies are focusing on cutting down expenses(ie. employees) and maximizing profits.
j455b2 Registered User Posts: 171 (11/3/02 10:36:02 pm) Reply	its me again I'm the original poster. After working as an electronics tech for the last three months at 9$ an hour (well its not really a tech job, more like electronics assembler but anyway) I decided to enroll in the army. They supposedly offer a 40 000$ (canadian) enrolment indemnity to engineering graduates but I guess its not for all candidates. Anyway I'm not going for the money but Its been 6 months I graduated and I am far from obtaining an engineering position It looks like the only place I'll get that is in the army... I just read an article in an employment paper today stating that electrical, computer engineering and computer science are the most unpopular degrees with employers these days... Even the job placement guy from my college said in the article that electrical engineering graduates are the worst hit.
C4S Registered User Posts: 105 (11/7/02 12:22:02 am) Reply	It comes and goes It's all a cycle. Hopefully in a few years everyone will need engineers again. It all depends on who's working on what and how ambitious you are. For instance, when I start working in the space industry, I'll be able to give you guys lots of jobs! CS
GQ Chris Registered User Posts: 1074 (11/7/02 11:18:23 am) Reply	re: jobs I'm still considering changing majors, I'm about halfway through to getting my Bachelor's and my current major is in Business with a focus on Computer Information Systems, I am thinking about changing it to Management. I mean what's the use of taking C++ and Jave programming classes, when upon graduation these jobs will be too few and far between. I don't know what to think now, I read in the paper that the economy has been making improvements, and then the next morning I'll read that the economy is going to take more time to make a full recovery.
wsux Registered User Posts: 1 (11/19/02 11:06:04 pm) Reply	Labor Mobility and Declining Wages Hi guys, I was going through your posts and I must admit that they make interesting reading. I am from India and I think I can offer some new perspective on the issue of labor mobility. First of all, I think trade in labor is just an extension of the so called process of globalization. Declining wages are nothing more than a manifestation of the simple law of demand and supply. The only way qualified people from foreign countries can be prevented from taking up jobs is by erecting artificial barriers on the movement of labor. But this is never, and I repeat, never going to happen in the US considering the clout that businesses command and the rewards they reap by hiring cheap labor. Second, without prejudice, I do believe that engineers from India who take up jobs in the US are superbly qualified. I am an engineer from the university ranked first in India and third in Asia - the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT). Students are admitted to the IIT's on the basis of entrance examinations. Can you guess the number of candidates who appear for approximately 2,500 seats? The figure is over 4,00,000. That's right - 4,00,000 candidates for 2,500 seats. Which selection process in the US is so competitive? But securing admission to one of the six Indian Institutes of Technology is comparatively easier - getting into one of the top Business Schools is even more difficult. My Business school - the Xavier Labor Relations Institute is ranked fourth in India. In the year I got into in, over a hundred thousand candidates appeared for 65 seats in their Business Management program (I have heard that they have increased the number of admissions to 140 since). The typical selection rate for most good business schools in India is no more than 0.07%. That's right - 7 in 10,000. Compare that with 15% for Wharton (Source: bwnt.businessweek.com/ft_...hools=520) It is guys who have gone through such gruelling elimination processes who finally end up in the US. It is not surprising that about 50% of the IT businesses in the silicon valley is owned by Indians (per Clinton's own admission!). Just one more (a trifle unrelated) statistic about the selectivity of examinations in India. One of the most sought after jobs in India is that for the Indian Civil Service for which over 3,00,000 candidates appear for fewer than 350 seats in the unreserved category. I joined this service in 1995 and my rank at the end of the selection process (comprising a set of preliminary exams, the main examination comprising two non overlapping subjects at the masters level, exams on general knowledge, essays and personal interviews totalling a whopping 2,200 marks) was 313 (yup, just made it). To say that selection processes in India are tough would be an understatement. Despite my best efforts to the contrary, I have this nagging feeling that I am giving an impression of beating my own drum. Sorry abt that folks, but some facts were necessary to put matters in perspective.. Oh and just a quick word on Indians working for measly salaries. I don't think that's true. I don't think any Indian engineer will come all the way to the US to work for $9.00 an hour. That no company will sponsor an alien (god bless whoever devised that wonderfully expressive term) for that salary is a related issue. As about me, I have been nominated by the govt of India to serve at the IMF on the condition that I get a Ph D in Econ. So at present I am slogging at a US univ pursuing my Ph D in Econ. Don't worry guys, I won't be usurping any of your jobs.
gxeric Registered User Posts: 861 (11/20/02 10:10:47 am) Reply	re They have colleges in India!?
mike1117 Registered User Posts: 194 (11/20/02 11:08:13 am) Reply	college You better hope they do. Otherwise it'll be high school students taking "your" jobs.
Go Blue 99 Registered User Posts: 119 (12/9/02 9:17:08 am) Reply	- Hell yeah there are colleges in india...they have engineering and business schools that are on par with top schools in the US.
Marcus137 Registered User Posts: 1 (12/9/02 4:27:31 pm) Reply	Labor Mobility and Declining Wages Well! I guess that it's time to give ourselves up, boys! Looks like the Indians have won! But seriously, just because a vanishingly small percentage of a population can endure extraordinary academic torture doesn't mean that they're any better when it comes to the nuts and bolts of genuine human creativity. In fact, most times you wind up worse for the torments through a loss of human objectivity. An example - I have a wonderfully fast and capable PC which could probably eat most anybody's lunch when it comes down to raw cataloging, computational, and retrieval power. And, there are millions like it out there, all around the world. But not one of them WILL EVER be able to replace the cross-colossal innovation machine present between any healthy person's ears. The point - America didn't become the place it is now through the hard, manufactured world of sheer academic expression and test scores. Rather, it has always been driven by a culture which values the full spectrum of human expression, and innovates through a healthy balance of academic experience and genuine creative leisure. This is true excellence. Our history testifies to its power. Where we abandon this right balance to cultures which do not embrace any such values, we will see ourselves losing our very souls to a cold, hard, unnatural existence of intellectual and academic slavery. But take heart all, it will come back around. Somewhere, someone will get just enough grant money to "explore" this issue, and bring our culture back to its roots. Why, they'll even discover that it's good for business! Till then, keep hoeing your row and have recourse to God. Pax.

[vannrox]

.





I've lived in 35 states over the last 20 years. My wife divorced me after the last layoff. I have been unemployed since February. I have been laid off 15 times in the last 20 years. Yea. I'm dealing with it.

I am in the process of a divorce.

I lost my car.

I can't afford my medicine.

My eyes are going bad.

I am in bankrupsy.

I had to sell all of my guns.

My unemployment ran out.

I am living with my mother right now

I had to move from the Boston Area to west nowhere.

The IRS is auditing me.

And I am working part time at Wendys. - 5 hours a week. (low seniority.)

My first reaction when you wrote..."deal with it" was anger. But, you know, I am dealing with it.

I only have one wish for you. I wish, I pray... I plead to God above that you get the chance to stand in my shoes. Because you don't understand the implications on either a personal level, or on a community level.

yea. I'm alive. And yes there are benefits. I get a free lunch when I work 8 hours in a day. I have a somewhat healthy body. The walking to work is certainly building up my body.




.

[vannrox]

.


Oh, and one last thing....

I attribute all my temporary woes to the actions of the greatest Dictator of the US of all time...FDR.


.

[AppyPappy]

Then why aren't we ALL unemployed?

[garbanzo]

Nor did we get here by using labor on foreign soil at the expense of Americans...

Yes we did. First we imported slaves. After we ended slavery, we started to import vast numbers of Irish and Chinese workers. In the south, Jim Crow created a pool of cheap and powerless labor. After that ended and after the early wave of European and Asian immigration ended we began importing labor from Latin America, which is essentially where we are now.

[Mr. Bird]

I'm sorry to hear your situation is not pleasant. However, I wasn't attempting to kick the downtrodden, or deny the fact that there are people in distress in this country. I was merely talking about H1B's and the misconceptions people have about the program. I'll keep you in my prayers.

Bird

[USMMA_83]

You are blaming your total ineptitude, and lack of social skills on Indian programmers and engineers? Yeesh!!!

[USMMA_83]

Your woes are a direct result of your shortcomings!

[Incorrigible]

Ack!  Take it easy on the guy!

He may need a drill sergeant but I think some counseling may be in order right now.

[USMMA_83]

I am too old school for that "counseling" crap, but I'll avoid offering him my options.

[Alberta's Child]

Excellent post.

I happen to be a civil engineer in the 25-35 age group, and I am very fortunate because there simply aren't a lot of people in my age group competing to replace those 45-55 year-olds you mentioned. It's actually a little scary because civil engineering is a field where even a mediocre professional can be very successful.

[Alberta's Child]

Wish I'd stayed with Pre-Med and become a Doctor.

Yeah, but then you'd be a burnt-out doctor complaining about how many hours you have to work to make up for the lower fees that HMOs pay you.

[Pragmatist]

Amen brother!
I'm 34, an industrial engineer, and I've been underemployed for almost 2 years. For the last two years, I've worked for an electrical company wiring houses, general construction, and a restaurant (general construction and restaurant work being particularly detestable for a Mensa member like myself). I've been hired twice by companies for work related to my experience and education. One filed bankruptcy right after they hired me. The other shipped off their design functions to India.

In this process, I've had my car repoed (I was only 50 days behind, with 9 payments left on a '00 automobile. The bank knew they could auction it for at least what they were owed; so it disappeared quickly). The good things are that I still have my house, and my wife and daughter are healthy and they haven't left me.

Big business MBA types (as a group) are short sighted greedy buttholes who don't care about this country. But engineers have reason to be optimistic. MBA types have no tangible skills (they can't make anything, can't provide any service, can't soothe anyone's ailments, etc.). RNs encountered a situation similar to ours in the 80s and 90s, where huge numbers of them were let go due to MBA powered downsizing. Now, experienced RNs can name their price (some making $50/ hour) due to the shortage caused by short sighted cost savings. In a few years, when products are desperately needed and manufacturing here will be necessary due to national security issues, the American engineers will laugh all the way to the bank.

As for those who say that "I see ads all the time for engineers", I say to them that these jobs have enormous numbers of applicants each. Also, in recessionary times (or, dare I say depression? In manufacturing, the declines in manufacturing output mirror the decline of 1929-1932. We are now at 1985 levels in manufacturing. This is a situation far worse than the 70s/ early 80s recessions) Only the crappiest companies are hiring. It stands to reason that if they are hiring in these times, these companies must be having a hard time keeping people. My job search has gotten to the point where it is comical. Hundreds of resumes sent out, only a few calls, and most of them come from companies far away. I don't want to sell my house, move to Wisconsin, and have that company file bankruptcy a week later. . . Many times I wonder if I have a tattoo (only invisible to me) that says "I have AIDS (or fill in the blank) and do not hire".

I've not taken any assistance from any government agency because I don't believe in doing it. My family has suffered greatly due to this pride.

To Rush Limbaugh who recommends that I start my own business, or I'm not looking hard enough, I say: With what money do I start a business? I can't borrow money based on my current income, and I have no savings because it has been already depleted during my job search. Possibly, Rush could back me in a manufacturing business with a small pittance from his $20 million/ month income. I'd guarantee him 20%/ year on his money against my house and land.
Pragmatist

[eno_]

You are spot-on. We cannot insulate ourselves from the global economy. France and other countries try, and their economies are the worse for it.

Nor should we try to insulate ourselves from India's elite. They are as good as our best, and if they are building companies here, we are better off. David Sarnoff was a Russian immigrant, Amar Bose is, I assume from the name, from India, and many other people who built great companies in the U.S. are immigrants and the children of immigrants.

As for mediocre IT seatwarmers hired by outsourcing firms, who cares? The companies being scammed by such outsourcing should mind their money more closely, or their IT is so bad now that is doesn't matter if they do a bad job with outsourcing.

If you want to make $200k/yr. in high tech, you better be damn good at what you do, and pick a new technolgy horse to ride every 18 months or you will be left behind. I have had consulting clients from Stockholm to Singapore. That could not have happened without the Internet and a global economy. I attribute about $500k in income in the last 10 years to easy access to any market. I would be that much poorer without such access.

[tom h]

Excellent advice, taxcontrol. And for those job seekers who are Christian, and for all Freepers, remember to have a heart filled with gratitude even if you don't get the job you think you deserve or the compensation you think you have coming.

[A. Pole]

I don't think these boys are lookin' in the right places for employment.

In the individual case "lookin' in the right places" might help. Even during the Great Depression some people got nice jobs. But if the whole economy is shrinking millions will be out of work. One clever or lucky individual will only grab the job from the someone else. This is a zero sum game and you cannot blame the general crisis on the indolence of those who lose the game.

[A. Pole]

To Rush Limbaugh who recommends that I start my own business, or I'm not looking hard enough, I say: With what money do I start a business? I can't borrow money based on my current income, and I have no savings because it has been already depleted during my job search. Possibly, Rush could back me in a manufacturing business with a small pittance from his $20 million/ month income. I'd guarantee him 20%/ year on his money against my house and land.

Rush is a clown. I listen to him, and when he says something especially annoying I switch to NPR. And sure enough after a moment I have to switch back. You cannot win. :(  Why the only choice is between crazed liberals and Dickensian free market fundamentalists?

[TomSmedley]

It's actually a little scary because civil engineering is a field where even a mediocre professional can be very successful.

Three engineers were debating the nature of God. Said the ME, "God must be a mechanical engineer. Contemplate the magnificent joints, sinews, and structures of the body." Said the EE, "No, God must be an electrical engineer. Look at the nervous system in all its intricate networks!" Said the CE, "No, God must be a civil engineer. Who else would run a toxic waste pipe through a playground?"

;-)

[TomSmedley]

I've not taken any assistance from any government agency because I don't believe in doing it. My family has suffered greatly due to this pride.

Ditto. As a Christian, I think going "on the dole" reflects badly on my stated faith in a God who provides for His own. As an observer, I've seen what drawing unemployment does to people. The standard practice is to go into a holding pattern until the week before it runs out -- then desperately scramble for whatever is available.

The last time I drew unemployment was in 1985. God in His mercy has spared me that shame ever since -- altho I did run my credit card bills up after the last layoff!

[tom h]

TruthNtegrity: we're in the same business and it pains me to think that you can't find a job. Our industry is going to boom in the next 12 months so I'm hopeful that you can get back on the train and remain there until you retire.

If you're a Virginia resident there ought to be hundreds of jobs available, perhaps not at the right salary for you. I wish you well and hope that you have the fortitude to hang on until times get better.

[Jhoffa_]

I have been an electronics hobbyist for some time.. I am a programming hack also. (programmable logic for my projects and a little VB) I was gearing up to attend college (hopefully next year) for EE.

You guy's are scaring the crap out of me with these threads.

What would say to an aspiring EE?