Rice on race: It matters and always has

NASHINGTO- Teddy Roosevelt, sitting proudly on his oil-W painted horse in the White House room with his name, must have been horrified at Dr. Condoleezza Rice.

As President Bush's national security advisor, she should have known better. She wasn't supposed to say that. Not in a White House peopled with conservative Republicans. Not to a group of black columnists representing major newspapers from around the country.

''Race matters in America,'' Rice said. ''It has, it always has. Maybe there will be a day when it doesn't, but I suspect that it will for a long time to come.''

For the record, Rice didn't stutter or backtrack at the end of her interview with the Trotter Group. Instead, she did something that black conservatives aren't known for: She publicly acknowledged the reality and validity of the race question.

Now before you right-wingers get your boxers in a bunch, take a breath. She didn't go Al Sharpton on us, pledging to support reparations. She didn't say that Bush would apologize for the U.S. government's role in the slave trade.

But Rice did increase her credibility with us by affirming her place in the continuing cultural and political struggle that black people in the United States are engaged in - and she did it on her own terms.

Black conservatives, take note: It's OK to admit that race is still a problem in this country. You don't have to sink into denial. The sky won't fall down. The ground won't swallow you up.

It doesn't mean that you have to join Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Coalition, take Congresswoman Maxine Waters to lunch or join the NAACP.

It's safe to take your heads out of the sand and face the truth: While the United States has made tremendous progress on race, it still has a long way to go.

The December 2002/January 2003 edition of Savoy magazine has an extensive article on a class-action discrimination lawsuit that has been filed against Xerox. The plaintiffs contend that sales territories are segregated, promotions are race-based and harassment can take the form of hanging nooses being displayed in some Xerox facilities.

Xerox denies any discrimination, but there is plenty of reason to doubt its denial. According to Savoy writer Marjorie Whigham-Desir, the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission dismisses about 80 percent of the complaints lodged by citizens against employers believed to be discriminatory. But Whigham-Desir reported that the EEOC has affirmed the group and individual complaints against Xerox, finding that ''reasonable cause exists to believe'' the charges that the plaintiffs have made.

And in case you Bill Clinton-haters out there are wondering, this is the 2002 Bush EEOC, not that old, tired Clinton-era model.

So maybe Rice isn't alone in the Bush White House. Maybe the GOP is slowing veering away from the Republican Party of 1964, which dealt a fatal blow to race relations during the GOP Convention led by Sen. Barry Goldwater's Cow Palace Republicans in San Francisco. These Republicans were so hostile toward blacks that Hall-of-Famer and convention attendee Jackie Robinson said: ''I now believe I know how it felt to be a Jew in Hitler's Germany.''

At least we can take comfort in knowing that the Bush administration, whatever it's other faults may be, doesn't buy into the lies that have blocked qualified blacks from serving at the highest levels of government. Certainly, it's a good sign that Rice and Secretary of State Colin Powell hold two of the top four slots in the Bush White House, a point not lost on Rice.

''I think it says to people that there aren't boundaries in which black Americans are not supposed to play,'' she said. ''I think that's an extremely important message to the rest of the world.

''I am African American and proud of it,'' Rice said later. ''I wouldn't have it any other way. I do not believe that it has limited who I am or what I can become.''

Conservative or not, I can respect that. And frankly, it's easier to respect people with whom you disagree when you know you share an appreciation for your common experiences. And so under Teddy Roosevelt's watchful, if skeptical gaze, Condoleezza Rice - a fan of Motown, Clarence ''Gatemouth'' Brown and Kool and the Gang as well as Brahms - gave and gained a lot of respect last week.

David Person's column appears each Friday on the Commentary page. E-mail: davidpe@htimes.com; phone 532-4362.

Aleister Crowley: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."

YOUR philosophy. No rules, f*** tradition. Many of us choose to live otherwise. Sorry that you feel that this offends you.

Its tiring going about endlessly repeating the obvious to you. If you don't understand the physical differences between Greeks of old as can be seen in their artworks, and the Greeks of today, you're hopeless for further discussion. There's no sense trying to talk to you about other related subjects.

BTW, I already have two children and a third on the way, with more to follow. The world's getting us whether you want us or not. Thankfully, you don't have any say in it at all. My plan: to help outbreed people such as yourself. Go run off with your money and position in the world and your breeding and all the rest of your superiority. It will be a Pyramid of Caius to the future, which is my children and children of others of like-mind - a monument to colossal egotism and oddity. The future will marvel at the bizzarre behavior of your generation.

Oh for crying out loud ! The " DO WHAT THOU WILT ..." is Crowley's take on the " WICCAN REED ", which is also a take off, on Jesus's teaching : " DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE DONE UNTO YOU ." ! Twist and turn the words, as you may, you still can't make them say what YOU claim them to state !

People like me ? You're absolutely insane, blinkered, bigotted, and an utter disgrace. I am so " traditional " and hidebound, as to be sometimes precieved here as antedeluvian. LOLAnd as for being " hopeless "; yes, you bet I'm HOPELESS , when some cretin attempts to use propaganda, lies, baseless codswallop, to misinterpret FACTS.

Soooooooooooo, you think that idealized , ancient Greek sculptur is what the ancient Greeks looked like ? Maybe you also believe that the ancient Egyptian wall painting and sculpturs are what the ancient Egyptians looked like too. You'd bolster your case, far more, if you used ancient Roman paintings and busts, dear, Though somewhat idealolized and Greekified, they were much more realistic.

You want to use ancient / old art, to prove your positions ? GOODY ; let's do exactly that. If you would care to take a tour of the National Picture Gallery, in Londodn, as well as the Victoria & Albert museum, and the British Museum, you'll find that the vast majaority of paintings of the Kings and Queens of England, Scotland, and Ireland( not to mention their subjects ), are NOT blonde, redheaded, blue eyed " Nordic " types. Want older proof ? Either find a decent book about , or pop over to France and take a c-l-o-s-e look at the Bayeaux Tapestry ( 1066 and all that; LOL ) and you'll find a preponderance of brown and black haired peoples thereon.

Now, let's talk about the Etruscans. Their wall painting reveal mostly dark haired folk. The Minoan, on Crete, had lovely wall paintings and painted sculptures...ALL WITH DARK HAIR !

Since the ancient Goths didn't leave paintings behind, nor even written testiments concerning what they all looked like, I'll take Julius Caesar's words on it ( and I have read them in the original Latin, as welll as later rereading it all, again, in English 20 + years later ); even though we all know just how predujiced against them, he was. He states, that the Goths, Visigoths, and various othr Germanic tribes, used a nasty goop ( made of potash and a bunch of other yucky ingedients ) on their hair and the men also used it on their beards. Though not necessarily the intention, this pomade turned their hair to red or blonde.

For further readings, I suggest that you delve into " THE ANGLO-SAXON CHRONICLES " and " THE PLANTAGENT CHRONICLES ". Though some of the facts, therein, are NOT exactly spot on, there are some physical descriptions of the kings, princes, queens, and people of the courts. Might just change your mind about your ridiculously stated opinion about all Europeans having once been blonde.

Now, here's another little factoid, that is going to blow up that Hitlerian nonsense. I bet that you don't know this; however, the ancient ( and even well into the 19th century !) English stereotype of a Jew, is someone with red hair ; Rebecca, in " IVANHOE " to the contrary. Charles Dickens used a notorious, early 18th century, English protestant thief / fence / Theiftaker General, Jonathan Wild, as a basis, for his RED HEADED JEWISH villan, Fagan. He made him a redhead, hook nosed,miser of a Jew ( stereotyping,dear ), because even with Disraeli being Prime Minister ( and a convert ), there was still terrible anti-Semitism raging in England, at that time. There goes your red head part of " EUROPEANS ALL USED TO BE EITHER BLODE OR RED HEADS ". No, the stereotyping re red haired Jews, came from the vast majority of Jews, from the Levant , who had emmigrated to England, in the early part of the 100s. No intermarriage is to account for the hair color.

My generation ? I'm not a BOOMER; is your mother ? Blame her, then. My generation, for the most part, aren't responsible for the mess this world is in. Neither, again, for the most part, did we raise snotnosed kids, such as you are, nor hooligans.

Sooooooooooooooo , you are going to " out breed " me and my kind ? You don't even know what my kind are. BTW, good luck with being no better than a rabbit. Anyone , or so it seems, can have children; many ( and that includes the likes of you ) , just don't know the first things about being a good parent. Obviously, you didn't have any, so no wonder you don't know how to be one.

Ahhh ... so traditional and hidebound that you see nothing the matter with inter-racial marriage. Yes, that sort of traditional attitude takes us all the way back to, well, ummm ... 1967? Well you can always count Alexander the Great on your side too. Just none of his followers.

Yes your creed is "Do what thou wilt", deny it as you might. You've said there is no reason to restrict people by the tradition of remaining with their own people, but that people should marry whomever they please as though this does not create problems for society. The weight of humanity that rejects this is against you.

Greek sculpture? Go see a picture of Alexander on the Alexander Sarcophagus (the Sarcophagus of Sidon in Constantinople. Made in 310 BC, it depicts Alexander and his fellow soliders with curly red-blonde hair. Of course not everyone had red or blonde hair then, but it was much more predominant. http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~classics/arch/2B03/b2304.htm http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~classics/arch/2B03/b2305.htm http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~classics/arch/2B03/b2306.htm http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~classics/arch/2B03/b2307.htm

So the sarcophagus is "idealized"? In what way? Alexander was really Chinese or Ethiopian? Your ignorance is tiresome.

The stereotype of Jews with red hair persists to this day, at least for Jewish women. Jesus and Blessed Mary both supposedly had reddish hair, and the meaning of Adam is "ruddy", which is also the description of King Solomon/Jesus in the Song of Songs.

I hadn't even brought this up, but apparently you are among the folks who raised the boomers then? What a lovely mess you made of the world when your generation ran it, from 1960 onwards. Can't blame the Boomers for messing it up - you folks did that for them. The first generation to cave to their own snot-nosed kids! What a profile in courage! Your generation has so many things to be proud of! The birth control pill, race riots, homosexuals out of the closet and into the school, ecumenism, abortion on demand, child abuse prosecutions and outlawing spanking, radical feminism, the destruction of our once lovely cities, idiocy in education, etc.

Let me get back to my potash. My strawberry blonde hair is turning black again, and I need to rub more azure dye on my eyes to keep them blue. Plus my right arm is feeling weak, so I'd better go do some salutes. No, on second thought, let me go and use it wake my children up and remind them I am a hateful tyrant who needs to beat them.

You're wrong, as ever, about 99 % of what you've posted. I shouldn't be surprised by that . LOL

No, dear, I didn't raise a Boomer; I'm not that old. You don't know much about anything ... let alone the names given to the various age cohorts, of 20th century America. You so enjoy this " blame game ", that you can't see the forest for the trees and haven't a scintilla of an idea, about who did what or when anything happened.My little age grouping, wasn't " responsible for any of the things you ranted about. Neither, kiddo, was that generation " respoinsible " for homosexuals coming out of the closet. How old are YOUR parents, BTW ? Boomers, are they ? Older ? And they are " responsible " for none of the " bad " things, that have happened during their lifetime ? Hmmmmmmmm ... perhaps you should think, instead of childishly, and emotionaly, venting your sick spleen all over the place.

Intermarriage ... where did I talk about inter racial marriage ? Oh and FWIW, prior to 1967, it wasn't a rarity, for an American of Greek, Albanian, Turkish, and whatever other ethnics, you so dispise, to marry someone who was of German , etc. ethnicity.

Again, " DO WHAT THOU WILT ", which is the first part (" AND HARM YE NONE " being the second and final part of that sentence, of the Wiccan Reed ! ) doesn't translate into the abragation of parental control in child rearing and has nothing, whatsoever, with me, my way of bringing up children, and exists, as such, only in your tiny, blinkered, uneducated, bogotted mind. You are some peculiar piece of work, kiddo. LOL

Actually, if you'd care to go back to the dawn of time ( your favorite spot ) , people didn't have any problems concerniong marrying vastly different peoples, from themselves. The Ancient Hebrews, even , married outside of their own little community, IF the other person would convert. Heck, Solomon even took wives and concubines, who didn't convert and set up pagan temples for them. No, this didn't sit well with GOD; nevertheless, it went on.

Ancient Romans had bastards with and even married women, from conquered lands.

The Ptolomeic Pharohs, were THE only ones, who married their own sisters / Aunts , in order to perpetuate and keep power in the hands of that nonEgyptian family.

I know what Alexander the Great looked like, according to various statuary / painting / mosaics of him. But, buy a damned clue ... Greek statuary is an idealized version of people. You seem to think that ALL ancient Grreks looked like statues. Haven't you ever seen the vessle paintings ? Get thee to a book and / or a musem, and f-a-s-t ! I guess you think that Socrates looked like the millenia later painted pictures of him, done by European artists . Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh !

As a matter of fact, it is ONLY in England , where the stereitypical Jew has red hair and that has been dying out, for a century. Hitler's Germany ( which I'm certain would have suited you quite well )didn't use the red hair; Jews were always represented as having black / dark hair there , which was patently ridiculous, since quite a large number of German, Austrian, Hungarian, and Polish Jews had blonde or red hair , in those countries. I brought this red haired Jew thing up, because you claimed that NORTHERN Europeans were the sole poseeors of blonde / red hair and that the farther away, one got from the Atlantic Ocean ( a ridiculous claim ! ), the less blonde / red haired people there are. If you're talking about India and China and Japan ( though you either don't know about or have forgotten about the Ainu ), then, that statement holds some validity. But, you weren't, you were just ranting ; raving on erroniously, about things you know almost nothing about.

I didn't say that you physically beat your poor children. You do much worse than that ; you're attempting to raise them to be clones of yourself. I feel very sorry for those kids. Poor babies, they have a souless, bigotted, blinkered , ill educated, benighted, little boy for a father, who is so insecure and predjudiced, that he has to claim that only he and his kind, are okay. You aren't " okay " and you're NO Conservative either. Frankly, you don't belong here. Go find a skinhead forum and post there, dear; you'll fit right in.

I don't despise other people, despite your apparent dreary imagingings of the fervid thoughts in my mind. Just because I want my children to marry people like themselves does not mean I have to hate others, except in your mind. Whatever happened to wishing others well but looking after your own house first? Heck, how about the benefit of the doubt and refraining from speaking ill of others? And you have the nerve to lecture me then about manners and upbringing!

It would be more interesting talking to you if you would act like less of a know-it-all name-caller. Of course, when you have nothing to say but need to make an appearance of it, ad hominem always fills the time and gives the appearance of thought. Of course, the Greeks noted this was the weakest of all forms of argument, as opposed to, say, using reason and facts. You ought to read over our posts and note the bitter invective in yours.

Do I have this right - the Greeks idealized Alexander and his cohorts by giving him red-blonde hair when he really had black hair? Is that what you are saying when you claim the Alexander Sarcophagus was "idealized"?

My red/blonde hair comment was about genetic incidence. It seems perfectly obvious to me that there is a sincline between Norway and Ireland and Iceland and Sri Lanka or Swaziland or Jakarta as far as the natural incidence of red and blonde hair, and the incidence has declined over time, considering the people like Mongol leader Genghis Khan had such hair color, as did the ancient Indians and Tocharians and many more of the Jews in the past. Why are you find what I am trying to say here so hard to understand?

The stereotype of the Jewish woman with red hair is still around. Just watch for it in the popular press. I'm sure you'll see a mention within one year.

Boomers were only in their pre-teens, teens and at most 22 when Stonewall and all the rest of that went down and was accepted by the 30-60 year olds then who were running the show as "okay". Ditto for birth control, abortion-on-demand, letting our cities be burnt down and hollowed out and the rest of my list. And yes, those of us youngsters out here who disagree with these things do hold the people from the generation holding the reins of power in our government, corporations, and institutions responsible for despoiling traditional society. And that includes those who passively accepted it and have since tried to benefit and profit from it.

I'm sorry its been so vexing to discuss something with someone who disagrees with you. You can always quit anytime.

I'm sorry that to you, anyone , who disagrees with some of your preposterous, ill informed, and peculiar positions, is guilty of being responsible for onerous things , which they couldn't possibly be culpable for, having been still in various stages of schooling , at that time. You still seem to think that I am much older than I actually am; even though I gave you a hint about just how old I am. LOL

I'm sorry that you have so many mental infirmities ( projection, for one , irrationality, for another, and quite a few more, which you should seek help for ! ), that you see a mote in someone else's eye, and ignore the beam in your own.

I'm sorry that , as a newbie, you have decided to take on much of FR, assuming all kinds of strange things about others, whom you have not the slightest idea about, instead of taking the time to read the archieves, the posts, and getting to know them.

I'm sorry, that I ever wasted my time, correcting some of the more outlandish misrepresentations, you've made. You either ignore what I post, agree that I've said things that I haven't, or try to refute the irrefutable. At least the lurkers got the benefit of what I wrote. LOL

You're a pompous little bigot, who doesn't know how to debate, hasn't enough / nor even correct " facts " , with which to counter what's been said, and perhaps, when you finally do grow up ( which you haven't yet managed to do ), you may realize that your present behaviour is appalling, most of your beliefs are worthless, and that no one really cares that you're such an incredible fool. :-)

[That's almost a trick question. I was about to say no, then I recalled my time in the Navy. Pretty decent turkey with all the fixins, then hanging out in the day room ]

It is not a trick question - it is a race-baiting question. It is designed to make you feel bad if you haven't. What if you haven't - are you a RACIST!! What if you have - does that make you a saint. Now what exactly is the point of that question? If I haven't, should I run out and find a black person to eat Thanksgiving dinner? Hmmmmm?

As far as Ms. Rice, she went down a long way in my estimation - of course, I never was a big fan, I was sorta neutral. But when I see a black person who is obviously better off than 99.9% of the people in this country crying RACISM - I get sick. Whining bothers me - it bothers me more from someone like her than Jackson. Let's all of us shed a tear because this woman who had a better life than many, many Americans of all ages, actually had people who did't like her - who made fun of her - who didn't want her around them. Well of course we should because that never ever happens to a white person - ] Yes, race matters to her evidently.

Now that's a rant---

Congratulations, you managed to come up with several names, but only one of which you could directly tie to the KKK (the late and not-so-great President Harding). JD Rockefeller may have been a racist and anti-semite, but a member of the Klan ? Most Americans of the time held opinions which would today put them at the lunatic racist fringe. If you believe Rockefeller was a member of the Klan I'd like to see proof beyond the fact that he was, like most of his contemporaries, a racist.

Now assuming you've seen D.W. Griffith's classics "The Klansman" and "Birth of a Nation", you may have noted that the two chief groups of villains in those films are blacks and carpetbagger republicans. Somehow, I doubt that the director was a great fan of the Grand Old Party.

For comparison of Klan adherence, try counting the majority of the federal, state, and local office holders, from the local sheriff up to governor and senator, in each and every deep south state from around 1866 to 1966. Bull Conner and every deputy with a baton, a cattle prod, or a fire hose standing on that famous bridge were registered "Yellow Dog" democrats and most of them had a nice white set of sheets at home to wear on "party nights".

Republican neglect no doubt played a part in Jim Crow and the plight of blacks in America from Reconstruction to the Great Society, but the folks who were doing the lynching and church burning were democrats. It is no accident of history that the shift of political power in the south from the democrats to the Republican Party coincided with the death of Klan influence. The irony is that, like the rabid white race baiters of the past, the southern blacks are now lock step members of the Democratic Party.

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