Posted on 11/13/2002 10:28:24 AM PST by dark_lord
Yet readers of the articles proclaiming a shortage would be perplexed if they also knew that Microsoft only hires 2% of its applicants for software positions, and that this rate is typical in the industry. Software employers, large or small, across the nation, concede that they receive huge numbers of re'sume's but reject most of them without even an interview. One does not have to be a ``techie'' to see the contradiction here. A 2% hiring rate might be unremarkable in other fields, but not in one in which there is supposed to be a ``desperate'' labor shortage. If employers were that desperate, they would certainly not be hiring just a minuscule fraction of their job applicants.
Here is a table showing the actual number of job applicants hired for a variety of companies:
| American Management Systems | 2% |
| Broderbund Software | 1% |
| Cisco | 5% |
|
|
|
| Cohesive | 2% |
| Datascan | 5% |
| Deltanet | 4% |
| ECbridges | 2% |
| Flashpoint Technology | 2 to 5% |
| R.D. Raab | 1% |
|
|
|
| H.L. Yoh | 4% |
| Inktomi | less than 5% |
| Microsoft | 2% |
| Net Perceptions | 2% |
| New England firm | 1% |
| Qualcomm | 4.5% |
|
|
|
| Radiant Systems | under 1% |
| Red Hat Linux | under 1% |
| Tangis | under 1% |
In other words, there is no shortage of ``bodies,'' i.e. there is no shortage of experienced computer programmers. The problem is that employers are not willing to hire them. Employers are only willing to hire from three narrow categories of programmers:
* New or recent (within a few years of graduation) college graduates, who have cheaper salaries. Note, though, that even among new computer science graduates, fewer than half are hired as programmers.
* Foreign nationals on work visas, who have cheaper salaries.
* A relatively small number of experiencedprogrammers who have background in certain highly-specialized software technologies.
Dr. Matloff says: "Hiring managers have often complained to me that their firm's Human Resources Dept. screens out resume's of applicants who the managers feel qualified. HR apparently decides to screen out the applicants who are too expensive or too old - and then complains that there is a ``shortage'' of applicants...There does seem to be coordination among the HR departments of the various firms. The HR departments of the major firms in Silicon Valley hold monthly meetings, at which the firms exchange information with each other on policy, salaries and so on. (Personal communication from Paul Donnelly, IEEE-USA, June 30, 2000.)...All the firms hire an extremely low percentage of their programming applicants, due to the fact that all the firms overstate job requirements...Almost all firms aim for applicants having three to seven years (or two to eight) of experience."
He says: "It seems safe to say that experience may not be the most valued commodity, according to a survey of 200 IT managers nationwide conducted by InformationWeek Research in May. Though age wasn't specified in the question, only 2% of the managers said they would most likely hire a worker with 10 or more years' experience. Almost half-46%-preferred to hire a worker with four to 10 years' experience, while 26% said they would hire a worker with less than three years' experience, and another 26% wanted an entry-level worker or recent college graduate."
You sound extremely vindictive against all American engineers. If you hate American engineers so much why don't you do us all a favor and pack up and move to India or China instead of bringing them all over here.
That just about says it all.
Interestingly, if you read the whole article, it appears to favor hiring US workers. But if you read the 1st paragraph and the last sentence, what it lays out is basically the rules and regulations that have to be worked around to legally hire an alien.
Here is published paper titled How and Why Government, Universities, and Industry Create Domestic Labor Shortages of Scientists and High-Tech Workers.
Refering to this paper, Dr. Markoff says "Amazingly, policy makers in another federal agency, the National Science Foundation (NSF), actually planned to bring in foreign nationals to hold down wages in science and engineering, at least at the postgraduate degree level. In early 1998, Dr. Eric Weinstein, then a mathematician at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, uncovered internal NSF documents which expressed concern that science and engineering salaries were getting too high, and proposed as a solution to this ``problem'' bringing in a glut of foreign labor. It is amazing that a federal agency would actually plot to keep U.S. citizens' salaries down. Subsequent to the writing of these documents, the NSF pushed Congress to establish the current H-1B program, in much expanded form compared to the old H-1 program. "
The paper details the background on the Immigration act of 1990, and the impact in the following years on the scientific community. Short overview - they were swamped with foreign postdocs, who flooded businesses with cheap labor, and the colleges as well so that universities could use postdocs as cheap "gypsy instructors".
A neat blast from the past are these two quotes from the Wall Street Journal, no less, way back when:
"Two years ago this day, ... we wrote "If Washington still wants to 'do something' about immigration, we propose a five-word constitutional amendment: There shall be open borders" -- Wall Street Journal Editorial, Thursday July 3, 1986
"...As long as we don't train enough scientists, engineers or software designers ourselves, immigration is a saving grace. ... Come to think of it, with jobs available why have a quota at all? ... Our view is, borders should be open." -- Wall Street Journal Editorial, Thursday February 1, 1990
Lets all give a big round of thanks to the WSJ and Congress on this one.
:-(
Yep, and you are now "failing" to mention that out of all of your "examples", only ONE was a US company. One was of uncertain origin, albeit it has a Spanish web page with no English. The other was founded in Singapore. You didn't have 5, you only had 3. I've already linked the post in question.
The one example of a REAL US company demonstrated that your theory was wrong.
And if you had checked the link provided to you in post 85, and if you had bothered to read my post 93 to you, you'd see that you ARE totally wrong. DCM has not just filed 104 applications, but 214!!!.
With the extra fields supplied in those records, you'll see that they ARE NOT DUPLICATES. Now stop insisting on that which has been proven to be false.
My attitude is a real old timey American can=do attitude, one that is sure of his ability to get things done, but humble in that wise ol way of learning how do to it better. For the past twenty years the typical American stumblefoot comp sci grad hasn't learned anything but how to hang on to lil' bits of nonsense as if they wuz dear life -- and most stop evolving in genuine ability after about 9 months -- that is except for their big arrogant but otherwise unoccuppied heads. What stops them (nearly) all is a falsely founded arrogance arising from fear of failure.
The same great fiat money pumps that stuffed the boardroom and corner offices full of ninny-men (and nasty-women)like some reverse liposuction, have inflated the heads of many a post 1980 programmer and analyst.
I'm sorry if calling a spade a spade offends you, but that is my own humble but long fully informed and knowledgable view.
Some thoughts on that...
A GAO investigation has uncovered MASSIVE fraud in the immigration system, and has reported that it is RAMPANT and "out of control". Yet NO enforcement action apparently has been taken.
From Immigration fraud 'out of control' - General Accounting Office slams INS for rampant problems
"The General Accounting Office has concluded that immigration fraud is rampant, even helping to open the door for terrorism, and that the Immigration and Naturalization Service has no idea how to get it under control."
In the Goverment Executive Magazine article, INS, GAO say immigration benefit fraud is pervasive , it is said that;
"The agency does not know the extent of the fraud, and has failed to provide its field offices with guidance in two key areas: how to conduct investigations of fraud and how to use technology to manage and share information about ongoing cases, the January report said. The INS, which has four service centers and 33 district offices that process applications and petitions for benefits, also hasn’t developed performance measures to use in offices responsible for investigating fraud, GAO said."
Do a search at DOL with simply DCM. You'll see 214 records for DCM Technologies, many with the same start date, title, and salary. 2/15/01 was a VERY popular date. In fact, the data matches zazona.com. Either admit that you were totally and absolutely wrong, apologize for your insolence, and admit that US workers are worthy of respect.
There's a real case of pervasive abuse and law-breaking going on here wrt H1B, but petty spite pieces like that last just give any reader or listener a real good excuse to tune it out. And they will.
That is precisely what is going on. Congress has the power to import cheap labor through immigration legislation and there is no shortage of companies eager to influence Congress to bend immigration polices more to their liking…for a price of course.
It's a treasonous and corrupt system that is diametrically opposed to the interests of the AMERICAN PEOPLE. These days “our” government seems totally consumed with making America the job market for the rest world with Americans last in line. All in the name of “Diversity”. Who does this government work for anyway?
This is ANOTHER great outrage of the times. And where is the debate with the two major parties on this? A sure sign of corruption is when two “supposedly” opposing parties agree on issues that the majority of Americans are vehemently against. Our government is becoming ever more detached from the electorate.
It isn't below me to challenge one who has called me a liar. If you REALLY want to see what is going on with the facts, read some of my related posts and links on the subject.
As many of us ARE engineers here on this thread, we MAY throw out a few technical terms here and there. Sorry if you don't understand them, and sorry if you think that speaking in those terms is somehow belittling those who don't know what we are talking about. The poster in question claims to know what he is talking about, and that is why I tossed out those terms...
So are YOU here on a H1-B too?
1. Everyone knows that engineers and programmers by and large have lower social skills. Thus we are more easily manipulated and it is harder for us to get together to oppose exploitation. Thus, we are among the first to be exploited by H1Bs.
2. About every five years a new computer language is thrust upon our industry. People who were considered experts in the field are instantly obsoleted or must start again from scratch. Camps are formed. Lines are drawn. So instead of uniting together in common interest for our careers, we backbite and stab each other in the back for a declining number of jobs.
3. Even if there are still lots of jobs left over for local talent, the fact that we can be replaced by an H1B or offshored talent means that we will be less likely to ask for a raise or a promotion. Fear is a great motivator.
4. What you learn after years of programming is how to go about solving problems efficiently. Maybe you need to spend time learning a new syntax or a new interface, but you will most often come up with a better solution than the newby "expert" in the latest software flavor ... whether the newby is from here or elsewhere. The dot.com revolution favored newness over experience. With the demise of the dot.coms there is hope that those who hire us will respect our experience and reward us accordingly. But I'm not going to hold my breath.
Well bvw, for someone who is preaching about respect for others, you surely don't practice what you preach.
Your vile comments are duly noted.
You're very welcome.
Not that I complained at work, but I'm not one to let someone come over and push me aside. Not in the least.
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