Why Men Won't Commit: Men's Atitudes About Sex, Dating and Marriage

National Marriage Project (Rutgers University) ^ | 2002 | Barbara Dafoe Whitehead and David Popenoe

[Utilizer]

"I'm a bit older (not THAT much, but enough) but let me tell you, the very chicks who make life a living hell for men are the same witches who make life hell for us. Nice girls don't do what has been described on this thread. What some women do is just not right. It just isn't."

"Nice girls are not in the normal places. Start looking under rocks and in caves"

I have been, luvvy. I have been. The ones who are so pointedly attempting to make Me notice their interest just do not seem to understand that I am not interested, or why. I, as most decent men, do indeed prefer a life of fulfilment with that special someone. The ones who are offering it prepackaged -or in some cases two or three prepackages, from infants through grade school and high school, are simply not our first choice. Unfortunately, that seems to be the majority of them.

[msru]

They expect you to go "dutch" when you go get a meal together.

Thats exactly right. Women go to college, get jobs, and make just as much as men today. Where is it written in stone that men have to pay for lunch or dinner on a date? What if I ask a girl out to lunch and she makes as much as I or more? Should I still be a "gentleman" and pay for us both?

[ctdonath2]

The difference between involvement and committment is shown by a ham-and-eggs breakfast: the chicken was involved, the pig was committed.

[Utilizer]

"I think it is an absolute travesty that we have set up such a thing. We have created a system that destroys the ability of young people to have what we used to call "a life." No young man today can reasonably contemplate marriage and a family without accepting the fact that his partner will be able to destroy his life at her whim, at any point in their travels, for any reason or for no reason at all."

Nick, it is not only the youngsters that are reluctant. It has been some time since I was twenty-anything, but even with time passing so inexorably, I am yet evercautious about attempting to follow that primrose path. Too, there are simply not that many available women that do not already carry some substantial baggage with them, and a years-held belief that she has no need to attempt to make the relationship work. She can walk away any time she wishes -and take quite a bit of his life with her as she goes.

[Servant of the Nine]

Nah.... the big head knows how to spell ATTITUDE

And FREEDOM

A male struggles all his young life to get through growing and getting an education and a job in order to be FREE.
When he finally reaches the nirvana of being able to come and go, behave or misbehave as he choses, select his own friends, quit his job and live in his car or on the beach for a while if he hates his job or needs the time for introspection.
If he wants something, and has the money or the credit, he just gets it, no rationalizing to someone else, no compromising, no excuses. He comes and goes as he pleases.

Then someone wonders why he would want to give all that up ?

A man in his late thirties or early fourties, who has done it all, is finally ready to think about finding a young woman and raising a family.
He is shrewd enough to realize that there is a 50/50 chance that the arangement will fail and that he needs to plan to support any children he sires, without letting himself be financially ruined by a vindictive ex. He plans ahead and has his finances aranged so that his family will not suffer if something happens to him. Until then, a man is not mature enough to make a good husband or to be happy as one.

So9

[M. Peach]

My thoughts and prayers are with you - I am very empathetic. Sadly, it may come to the point where you realize that you may be causing irreprable harm to your children by being such poor role models for marriage.

That is one conclusion I finally had to come to, because the tension in the house was unbearable, even though I would never raise my voice. There was absolutely no affection, and as you know - we usually wind up acting like our parents. Not good for your kids marriages...

[sonserae]

Most men did "nothing" to deserve divorce?
Hmmm...that is such a general answer. In my experience I didn't have to marry the guys I've experienced to find out that they were not all "innocent" in their relationships...most wanted a housekeeper, caretaker, cook, nurturer, etc...without feeling like they had to take 5 minutes out of their work or play schedule to acknowledge that you meant something to them besides being a taskmaster.

[M. Peach]

Thank you for your kind words. The bad news is that I'm not alone. The good news is that I'm not alone ;-)

[null and void]

The big head has seen or experienced marriage/divorce as "a method of extracting a man's genitals through his wallet".

[null and void]

A man in his late thirties or early fourties, who has done it all, is finally ready to think about finding a young woman and raising a family.

Swervie, you know I got married at 38. Stop picking on me. I have an ex who is FAR better at it than you...

[sonserae]

Read your statement again..."What if I ask a girl out"....I think the one asking should pay. What men want is something for nothing...They want a woman to meet their every need but don't want to do anything to reciprocate. This is wrong.

[Servant of the Nine]

Swervie, you know I got married at 38. Stop picking on me. I have an ex who is FAR better at it than you...

And I got married at 37. Maybe I should revise my age for marriage to late 50s to early 60s.

SO9

[Servant of the Nine]

Swervie, you know I got married at 38. Stop picking on me. I have an ex who is FAR better at it than you...

And I got married at 37. Maybe I should revise my age for marriage to late 50s to early 60s.

SO9

[Nick Danger]

Nice girls don't do what has been described on this thread. What some women do is just not right. It just isn't.

Those women are not the problem. They are responding rationally to the same system that causes men to respond rationally by avoiding marriage. The government and the legal system are standing there telling them, "Go on, take his house! Both cars, too. You know you want to. Plus half his income for the rest of his life. And take the kids with you!

"C'mon, do it for the sisterhood! Do it two or three times to different men, and you could own three homes and be set for life. It's your right! You deserve it!"

This is the system we have in this country. The problem isn't men or women, or finding the right partner. It's lawyers and judges and politicians who want to screw with peoples' lives for money and power.

To hear you tell it, all a man has to do is look under the right rock, and he can find a woman who won't take him to the cleaners for fun. Well, that's nice, but that's not the point. Why should you even have the right to do that to somebody? Why should somebody walk around on eggshells for the next twenty years because you might change your mind at some point? Sure, today, you say you'd never do that. All women say that. They all mean it, too. But the world is full of guys living on $700 a month who married a woman who would never do that to them... until she did.

You can't expect sane men to go into a deal with you where you get to have a nuclear weapon, on the basis of your assurances that you're so nice that you won't use yours. Not when any man can look around and see dozens just like him who have been nuked. Disarm first, and maybe then they'll come looking for you under your rock.

Nothing about this is going to change until women face an equal risk of losing custody of their children in a divorce. So long as there is a presumption of maternal custody, all the rest has to follow, and the system will remain an unacceptable hazard to male participants.

Society would be better off in the long run if custody decisions were removed from the purview of judges and decided by a flip of a coin. Men would perceive that as fair, and women would see a 50-50 chance of losing. With that one change, the divorce rate would drop like a rock, and the rest of this stuff would all go away.

[Z in Oregon]

The best place to meet a decent woman is in a Christian College group, a pro-life group, or conservative church.

When found, just make sure that you and she sign a premarital contract that has been reviewed by your attorney and hers at least 6 months before the wedding, and that it specifically declares what is and is to remain your---including any homes/property you own.

Given all that, plus plenty of time together, plenty of time with your kids, and shared values, and you should be O.K.

[null and void]

Late 90's early 100's...

[Z in Oregon]

Those women are not the problem. They are responding rationally to the same system that causes men to respond rationally by avoiding marriage. The government and the legal system are standing there telling them, "Go on, take his house! Both cars, too. You know you want to. Plus half his income for the rest of his life. And take the kids with you! "C'mon, do it for the sisterhood! Do it two or three times to different men, and you could own three homes and be set for life. It's your right! You deserve it!" This is the system we have in this country. The problem isn't men or women, or finding the right partner. It's lawyers and judges and politicians who want to screw with peoples' lives for money and power. To hear you tell it, all a man has to do is look under the right rock, and he can find a woman who won't take him to the cleaners for fun. Well, that's nice, but that's not the point. Why should you even have the right to do that to somebody? Why should somebody walk around on eggshells for the next twenty years because you might change your mind at some point? Sure, today, you say you'd never do that. All women say that. They all mean it, too. But the world is full of guys living on $700 a month who married a woman who would never do that to them... until she did. You can't expect sane men to go into a deal with you where you get to have a nuclear weapon, on the basis of your assurances that you're so nice that you won't use yours. Not when any man can look around and see dozens just like him who have been nuked. Disarm first, and maybe then they'll come looking for you under your rock. Nothing about this is going to change until women face an equal risk of losing custody of their children in a divorce. So long as there is a presumption of maternal custody, all the rest has to follow, and the system will remain an unacceptable hazard to male participants. Society would be better off in the long run if custody decisions were removed from the purview of judges and decided by a flip of a coin. Men would perceive that as fair, and women would see a 50-50 chance of losing. With that one change, the divorce rate would drop like a rock, and the rest of this stuff would all go away.

Your most brilliant, articulate, well-spoken, on-target post ever, Mr. Danger

[tacticalogic]

They want a woman to meet their every need but don't want to do anything to reciprocate. This is wrong.

I wouldn't say we don't want to do anything. It's a lot of work to hit them in the head with that club, and then have to haul them all the way back to the cave!

[friendly]

I would criticize this excellent study in underestimating the the behavioral effect of the corrupt divorce industry: the rapacious divorce lawyers and the retired divorce lawyers (AKA divorce judges) who make up the unregulated courts and bar associations.

Throw in the ferociosly anti-father, anti-male biased family courts and it is obvious that marraige has ceased to be a viable option for rational males.

My advice for any young man: have kids, be a good dad, but absolutely don't marry. Oh and vote for any politician who promises legal reform!! (That would by definition not be any menmber of the Crooked Trail Lawyer Party, oops I mean democrat party.

[Nick Danger]

Most men did "nothing" to deserve divorce?

I didn't say that. The point is, he doesn't have to do anything. If the man is a lout, he'll get screwed in the divorce. If he was a saint and his wife an abusive harridan, he'll get screwed in the divorce. It doesn't matter what he does. He could be Father Of The Year. If his wife takes a liking to her biology professor, he's toast. This makes it impossible for any man to believe that any of this is under his control. The advice here is always, "Well, treat your wife right and none of this will happen to you," but that's not what the real world looks like to anyone who has friends that have been through this. The world is full of perfectly nice guys who got absolutely hosed. The system is simply not safe to deal with if you're a man. It will screw you, and it will screw you purely on the basis of your sex; it doesn't matter what you did. The sane response is to stay away from it.