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Professor Rigid on Evolution (must "believe" to get med school rec)
The Lubbock Avalanche Journal ^ | 10/6/02 | Sebastian Kitchen

Posted on 10/06/2002 8:16:21 AM PDT by hispanarepublicana

Professor rigid on evolution </MCC HEAD>

By SEBASTIAN KITCHEN </MCC BYLINE1>

AVALANCHE-JOURNAL </MCC BYLINE2>

On the Net

• Criteria for letters of recommendation: http://www2.tltc.ttu.edu/dini/Personal/ letters.htm

• Michael Dini's Web page:

http://www2.tltc.ttu. edu/dini/

Micah Spradling was OK with learning about evolution in college, but his family drew the line when his belief in the theory became a prerequisite for continuing his education.

Tim Spradling said his son left Texas Tech this semester and enrolled in Lubbock Christian University after en countering the policy of one associate professor in biological sciences.

Professor Michael Dini's Web site states that a student must "truthfully and forthrightly" believe in human evolution to receive a letter of recommendation from him.

"How can someone who does not accept the most important theory in biology expect to properly practice in a field that is so heavily based on biology?" Dini's site reads.

Dini says on the site that it is easy to imagine how physicians who ignore or neglect the "evolutionary origin of humans can make bad clinical decisions."

He declined to speak with The Avalanche-Journal. His response to an e-mail from The A-J said: "This semester, I have 500 students to contend with, and my schedule in no way permits me to participate in such a debate."

A Tech spokeswoman said Chancellor David Smith and other Tech officials also did not want to comment on the story.

At least two Lubbock doctors and a medical ethicist said they have a problem with the criterion, and the ethicist said Dini "could be a real ingrate."

Tim Spradling, who owns The Brace Place, said his son wanted to follow in his footsteps and needed a letter from a biology professor to apply for a program at Southwestern University's medical school.

Spradling is not the only medical professional in Lub bock shocked by Dini's policy. Doctors Patrick Edwards and Gaylon Seay said they learned evolution in college but were never forced to believe it.

"I learned what they taught," Edwards said. "I had to. I wanted to make good grades, but it didn't change my basic beliefs."

Seay said his primary problem is Dini "trying to force someone to pledge allegiance to his way of thinking."

Seay, a Tech graduate who has practiced medicine since 1977, said a large amount of literature exists against the theory.

"He is asking people to compromise their religious be liefs," Seay said. "It is a shame for a professor to use that as a criteria."

Dini's site also states: "So much physical evidence supports" evolution that it can be referred to as fact even if all the details are not known.

"One can deny this evidence only at the risk of calling into question one's understanding of science and of the method of science," Dini states on the Web site.

Edwards said Dini admits in the statement that the details are not all known.

Dini is in a position of authority and "can injure someone's career," and the criteria is the "most prejudice thing I have ever read," Seay said.

"It is appalling," he said.

Both doctors said their beliefs in creationism have never negatively affected their practices, and Seay said he is a more compassionate doctor because of his beliefs.

"I do not believe evolution has anything to do with the ability to make clinical decisions — pro or con," Seay said.

Academic freedom should be extended to students, Edwards said.

"A student may learn about a subject, but that does not mean that everything must be accepted as fact, just because the professor or an incomplete body of evidence says so," Edwards said.

"Skepticism is also a very basic part of scientific study," he said.

The letter of recommendation should not be contingent on Dini's beliefs, Edwards said.

"That would be like Texas Tech telling him he had to be a Christian to teach biology," Edwards said.

Harold Vanderpool, professor in history and philosophy of medicine at the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston, said he has a problem with Dini's policy.

"I think this professor could be a real ingrate," Vanderpool said. "I have a problem with a colleague who has enjoyed all the academic freedoms we have, which are extensive, and yet denies that to our students."

Vanderpool, who has served on, advised or chaired committees for the National Institute of Health, the Food and Drug Administration and the Department of Health and Human Services, said the situation would be like a government professor requiring a student to be "sufficiently patriotic" to receive a letter.

"It seems to me that this professor is walking a pretty thin line between the protection of his right to do what he wants to do, his own academic freedom, and a level of discrimination toward a student," he said.

"It is reaching into an area of discrimination. That could be a legal problem. If not, it is a moral problem," Vanderpool said.

Instead of a recommendation resting on character and academic performance, "you've got this ideological litmus test you are using," he said. "To me, that is problematic, if not outright wrong."

William F. May, a medical ethicist who was appointed to President Bush's Council on Bioethics, said he cannot remember establishing a criterion on the question of belief with a student on exams or with letters of recommendation.

"I taught at five institutions and have always felt you should grade papers and offer judgments on the quality of arguments rather than a position on which they arrived."

Professors "enjoy the protection of academic freedom" and Dini "seems to be profoundly ungrateful" for the freedom, Vanderpool said.

He said a teacher cannot be forced to write a letter of recommendation for a student, which he believes is good because the letters are personal and have "to do with the professor's assessment of students' work habits, character, grades, persistence and so on."

A policy such as Dini's needs to be in the written materials and should be stated in front of the class so the student is not surprised by the policy and can drop the class, Vanderpool said.

Dini's site states that an individual who denies the evidence commits malpractice in the method of science because "good scientists would never throw out data that do not conform to their expectations or beliefs."

People throw out information be cause "it seems to contradict his/her cherished beliefs," Dini's site reads. A physician who ignores data cannot remain a physician for long, it states.

Dini's site lists him as an exceptional faculty member at Texas Tech in 1995 and says he was named "Teacher of the Year" in 1998-99 by the Honors College at Texas Tech.

Edwards said he does not see any evidence on Dini's vita that he attended medical school or treated patients.

"Dr. Dini is a nonmedical person trying to impose his ideas on medicine," Edwards said. "There is little in common between teaching biology classes and treating sick people. ... How dare someone who has never treated a sick person purport to impose his feelings about evolution on someone who aspires to treat such people?"

On his Web site, Dini questions how someone who does not believe in the theory of evolution can ask to be recommended into a scientific profession by a professional scientist.

May, who taught at multiple prestigious universities, including Yale, during his 50 years in academia, said he did not want to judge Dini and qualified his statements because he did not know all of the specifics.

He said the doctors may be viewing Dini's policy as a roadblock, but the professor may be warning them in advance of his policy so students are not dismayed later.

"I have never seen it done and am surprised to hear it, but he may find creationist aggressive in the class and does not want to have to cope with that," May said. "He is at least giving people the courtesy of warning them in advance."

The policy seems unusual, May said, but Dini should not be "gang-tackled and punished for his policy."

The criterion may have been viewed as a roadblock for Micah Spradling at Tech, but it opened a door for him at LCU.

Classes at LCU were full, Tim Spradling said, but school officials made room for his son after he showed them Dini's policy.

skitchen@lubbockonline.com 766-8753


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: academia; crevolist; evolution
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To: Right Wing Professor; gore3000

'God made them that way' has no predictive value. Let's say we sequence the genome of a new species. We know nothing about the biochemistry of this species (this is happening more and more; gene sequencing is so powerful and classical biochemistry so slow the former now almost always leads the latter). We'd like to identify the genes as far as we can. So what do we do? We compare them with genes from a better known species, one as closely related as possible, and infer that what codes for a serine kinase, say, in species 1, is probably also a serine kinase in organism 2. That works if we believe in evolution. However, if we don't believe in evolution, we start with a tabula rasa in every new case. Why, after all, should the creator have used a set of common blueprints? Why would he use similar genes for a serine kinase in two birds, and a different one in a tunicate?

(Of course, what would really happen is the hypothetical creationist would use the same relationships to assign the gene products, denying to himself that he was implictly accepting species 1 and species 2 had a recent common ancestor)

Excellent point! But I think it's worse than that: She'd look for any animal that looks like the animal whose genome is being decoded. So if she's decoding a bat's genome, she'd look up bird sequences! Decoding a porpoise's genome? Then ask the fish. Decoding the platypus? Ooh, then she'd get really confused - consult the duck genome for a start, obviously. Right, gore3000?
861 posted on 10/10/2002 11:16:34 PM PDT by jennyp
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To: Dimensio
What part of evolution is your favorite...spontaneous matter/life or morphing animals?
862 posted on 10/11/2002 12:29:03 AM PDT by f.Christian
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To: f.Christian
What part of evolution is your favorite...spontaneous matter/life or morphing animals?

Neither is part of evolution, and I already told you that, but you're either too dishonest to acknowledge it or too insane to realise it even when it is told to you.

What part of Christianity is your favorite? Self-mutilation or slaughtering infants?
863 posted on 10/11/2002 12:38:37 AM PDT by Dimensio
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To: Alamo-Girl
"That paragraph is the most insightful statement of what is at issue in the creation/evolution controversy that I have ever read from a senior figure in the scientific establishment. It explains neatly how the theory of evolution can seem so certain to scientific insiders, and so shaky to the outsiders. For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose."

"The prior commitment explains why evolutionary scientists are not disturbed when they learn that the fossil record does not provide examples of gradual macroevolutionary transformation, despite decades of determined effort by paleontologists to confirm neo-Darwinian presuppositions. That is also why biological chemists like Stanley Miller continue in confidence even when geochemists tell them that the early earth did not have the oxygen-free atmosphere essential for producing the chemicals required by the theory of the origin of life in a prebiotic soup. They reason that there had to be some source (comets?) capable of providing the needed molecules, because otherwise life would not have evolved. When evidence showed that the period available on the early earth for the evolution of life was extremely brief in comparison to the time previously posited for chemical evolution scenarios, Carl Sagan calmly concluded that the chemical evolution of life must be easier than we had supposed, because it happened so rapidly on the early earth."

"That is also why neo-Darwinists like Richard Dawkins are not troubled by the Cambrian Explosion, where all the invertebrate animal groups appear suddenly and without identifiable ancestors. Whatever the fossil record may suggest, those Cambrian animals had to evolve by accepted neo-Darwinian means, which is to say by material processes requiring no intelligent guidance or supernatural input. Materialist philosophy demands no less. That is also why Niles Eldredge, surveying the absence of evidence for macroevolutionary transformations in the rich marine invertebrate fossil record, can observe that "evolution always seems to happen somewhere else," and then describe himself on the very next page as a "knee-jerk neo-Darwinist." Finally, that is why Darwinists do not take critics of materialist evolution seriously, but speculate instead about "hidden agendas" and resort immediately to ridicule. In their minds, to question materialism is to question reality. All these specific points are illustrations of what it means to say that "we" have an a priori commitment to materialism."

"The scientific leadership cannot afford to disclose that commitment frankly to the public. Imagine what chance the affirmative side would have if the question for public debate were rephrased candidly as "RESOLVED, that everyone should adopt an a priori commitment to materialism." Everyone would see what many now sense dimly: that a methodological premise useful for limited purposes has been expanded to form a metaphysical absolute. Of course people who define science as the search for materialistic explanations will find it useful to assume that such explanations always exist. To suppose that a philosophical preference can validate a cherished scientific theory is to define "science" as a way of supporting prejudice. Yet that is exactly what the Darwinists seem to be doing, when their evidence is evaluated by critics who are willing to question materialism."

864 posted on 10/11/2002 12:46:19 AM PDT by f.Christian
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To: Dimensio
Is their some kind of evolution dealer ship I don't know about...

models---remote viewing---space travel?

865 posted on 10/11/2002 12:51:39 AM PDT by f.Christian
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To: PatrickHenry
"The centerpiece of Gould’s essay is an analysis of the complete text of Pope John Paul’s statement of October 22, 1996 to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences endorsing evolution as "more than a hypothesis." He fails to quote the Pope’s crucial qualification that "theories of evolution which, in accordance with the philosophies inspiring them, consider the spirit as emerging from the forces of living matter or as a mere epiphenomenon of this matter, are incompatible with the truth about man." Of course, a theory based on materialism assumes by definition that there is no "spirit" active in this world that is independent of matter. Gould knows this perfectly well, and he also knows, just as Richard Lewontin does, that the evidence doesn’t support the claims for the creative power of natural selection made by writers such as Richard Dawkins. That is why the philosophy that really supports the theory has to be protected from critical scrutiny."

"Gould’s essay is a tissue of half-truths aimed at putting the religious people to sleep, or luring them into a "dialogue" on terms set by the materialists. Thus Gould graciously allows religion to participate in discussions of morality or the meaning of life, because science does not claim authority over such questions of value, and because "Religion is too important to too many people for any dismissal or denigration of the comfort still sought by many folks from theology." Gould insists, however, that all such discussion must cede to science the power to determine the facts, and one of the facts is an evolutionary process that is every bit as materialistic and purposeless for Gould as it is for Lewontin or Dawkins. If religion wants to accept a dialogue on those terms, that’s fine with Gould—but don’t let those religious people think they get to make an independent judgment about the evidence that supposedly supports the "facts." And if the religious people are gullible enough to accept materialism as one of the facts, they won’t be capable of causing much trouble."

"The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked. Propagandists like Gould try to give the impression that nothing has changed, but essays like Lewontin’s and books like Behe’s demonstrate that honest thinkers on both sides are near agreement on a redefinition of the conflict. Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. When the public understands this clearly, Lewontin’s Darwinism will start to move out of the science curriculum and into the department of intellectual history, where it can gather dust on the shelf next to Lewontin’s Marxism."
866 posted on 10/11/2002 1:00:47 AM PDT by f.Christian
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To: VadeRetro
HOW could floodwaters have deposited layers of HEAVIER sediments on top of layers of LIGHTER sediments? In other words, if there had been an ultramassive Flood, we would not expect to see limestone strata overlaid by granite. No creationist has ever explained how the Flood could have deposited layers of heavy sediment on top of layers of lighter sediment.

This is a perfect example of why arguing over religion is foolish. Take a look at your own statement. If your "refutation" was true, then there would never be heavy sediments over light sediments. But there are. What part of reality do you not get here? If flood waters cannot do what flood waters do, then particlular flood did not exist?! Look in any stream bed anywhere that is exposed in cross wise section (hint look at the sides of the stream beds where the stream has cut through an older section. Notice that all the materials are not sorted as to mass, but are sorted as to mass at the time the stream was flowing. Any change in the flow rate at any given point in time causes different deposits by mass/cross section at that point of time. (AnI law of cross sectional placerplacement).

So for this idea to be even remotely possible, the earth would have had to be absolutely round, no brush or hills to impede flow. The flood would have had to start by just appearing slowly until it rose to what ever height and then suddenly started to spin around the poles tearing up the dirt evenly never exposing any form of bedrock or anything that would impede the flow or cause eddy currents. Then magicly the flood would have had to slowly decelerate raining out the sediments and rocks it did not expose in the first place, evenly in a layer over the whole earth untill it just "went away". Then and only then could you have had even sorting of the layers that you need to believe there even was a flood. But there are layers there. What caused them, brain farts? Do you know of anything else that causes earth layering in nature besides, uh water deposits? That's it, a previously unknown dinosaur that had a fetish for sorting gravel that went extinct because of the Ice age. Yeah, it died of frustration because all the snow was the same size. Thats the ticket...

Of course there were mountains that caused runoff, and seabeds that existed as great sandtraps, and bushes to impede flow and even a storm that caused wave action. So naturally stream beds did what stream beds do, they deposited their layers in a haphazard form directly related to the flow as it happened at that point in time.

You also mixed rock types with sedimentary layers. Are you telling me that limestone and granite are sedimentary rocks? Look at granite some time. Does it look placered or are the rock particles rough, crystalline in form and uniform? Crystallization comes from igneous formation of particles not layering. Damn, you boys need to get outside some time and smell the roses.

The fact that you attempt to put the whole earth in a test tube and have come to the conclusion that God does not exist because it won't fit is the real problem here. This is not about science, this is about faith. And I passed on your religious arguments.

These ideas are so beyond you that you did not even see the obvious errors, how do your expect me, some jerk-wad in Israel to debunk them all for you if you cannot even understand them in the first place? I would have to have an IQ of about 3000 to have all the answers to everything in the world and at that point I would be way to busy to bother writing you a letter. Get real.

This was the first example you gave. I case you think I just found a simple oops in your observation... I will wade through the pasture, wait a minute while I adjust my suspenders. This is pretty think stuff.

There would be no segregation of fossils. If all organisms lived at the same time, we would expect to see trilobites, brachiopods, ammonites, dinosaurs, and mammals (including humans) all randomly mixed together in the worldwide blanket described in point #1. This is not what is observed.

Oh give me a break! This like 5 guys who are blind trying to describe an elephant after on lunch break they have decided to at least agree on one thing. Elephants don't exist.

Why would dead animals have different rules than dead rocks? Just like in a stream bed you see sorting by mass/cross sectional area vs flow rate in floodwaters you see in fossils “sorting by mass/cross sectional area vs flow rate”. That is why you see debris sorted on the beach the same way. Tell me, if you find shells on the beach all piled together by size and type (as you see on any beach) does that prove the birds don't exist? Besides, anomalies in the fossil records abound. I have seen them myself. If you find a bird with a seashell in the same fossil strata, it is just labeled a bird age fossil. If you find a dinosaur bone with a sea shell it is just labeled a dinosaur age fossil. If you find the layering in reverse order, the layers must have been flipped over due to geological shifting.... Seriously you need to get out more. If fossils are so darned important to you, go dig some! Bring a picknik lunch, you will dig it. (no pun intended) Listen to the birds sing.

Nobody even knows how fossils come about being in the first place in the scientwistic circles because the answer is only obvious, and they have agreed that is the one thing they agree does not exist. (Hint, in order for fossilisation to take place, you need low level electrical currents.)

or this

Igneous (volcanic) rocks, if they existed at all in flood sediments, would all be in the form of pillow lava, which are extruded underwater. There could be no segregation of igneous rock types. Basalt would be the only igneous rock type because all activity would have been extrusive. There would be a complete absence of volcanic layers within the strata.

In reality,(what a concept!) there are very clearly defined volcanic layers, from which radiometric dates are obtained. How can we observe layers of volcanic rock within the strata if there was a Flood at at the time?

The flood was only 40 days? -grin- Seriously, if what this statement said is true, there would be no such thing as lava formations of any sort than land or water. Did you catch the concept that lava happens before, during and after the flood? This again is an attempt to make the whole world fit in a single test tube. Very shortsighted.

As for radiometric dating, it is based on the concept that decay rates are a constant barring of course external influences. I suspect that a world wide flood is a bit of an influence. And since you want everything spelled out low level electrical currents passed through the lava would degrade the constant. The influence of external energy sources would shift the decay rate. A world wide flood grinds up metal veins and galvometric action caused by the electrical interaction of the metal particles degrading causes all sorts of odd things like the super x 22 bullet I pulled out of the sluice box once that was incased in sandstone. The bacterial action in the water caused acid that accelerated the galvonmetric activity between the lead bullet and the brass case. the bullet was perfectly imbedded in a do-nut of sandstone. LOOK A BULLET FOSSIL! Must be where 30-06's evolved from...

The third one is totally out of the ball park and hard for me to grasp.I don't do drugs... Because delicate fossils exist a single event that happened at one time in history did not? You know that pot makes your time sense history right?

Again, for the third time the method of trying to make a huge concept for a tiny brain to prove a blanket statement is used. Cult stuff if I ever saw it. What is it about your religion that anything can be believed if you shift the decimal point enough? It is like there is some finite limit to what your brain can hold. If you put a big enough thought in there, you can ignore the obvious. Time happens.

Ignoring that the flood is most likely the only way that delicate fossils exist in the first place, why is the presence of Noah's flood automaticly erase any existing fossil records before and after that flood? [there, I said the N word, sure to be flamed now]

Next time you get road kill in front of your house, go drag it onto your lawn, put up safety barriers around it with big signs saying “DO NOT DISTURB, FOSSILATION EXPERIMENT IN PROGRESS” around it and report back to me when you get a dog fossil complete with hair in place. Of course you will have to keep flies and other dogs away. But then, if they are smart enough to design the next generation of dogs that fly, surely they can read your signs...

Hint, bury the dog. It stinks less that way. You are even more likely to get a fossil. Now tell me, what the heck is big enough to bury about 500 dinosaur's in a big pile, sorted by mass/cross sectional area? That is one HECK of a big Dog you got back there, A DOGOSAUROUS!. Or did dinosaur's actually have a highly advanced religion and bury their dead in graveyards? Perhaps you think dinosaurs have homing instincts for dead dinosaurs and one fell over a clift once and all the rest followed?

I had a boss that perfectly described the mind-set of the Scien-twistic religion. He was talking money, (which he always did), but he said “lets not stumble over dollar bills to pick up nickles”. The same way, you and your cronies ignore the obvious, to search the sublime.

I got a suggestion, get a girl-friend and go to a movie. Watch a sunset, swim at the beach. Do something silly for once and enjoy life. You only got one, and playing with fossils all day make Jack a dull boy. La Chiem. (To LIFE!)

867 posted on 10/11/2002 1:35:27 AM PDT by American in Israel
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To: f.Christian
a methodological premise useful for limited purposes has been expanded to form a metaphysical absolute.

And that is the problem in a nut-shell. Great post.

868 posted on 10/11/2002 1:44:37 AM PDT by American in Israel
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To: All

Morning placemarker.
869 posted on 10/11/2002 3:59:38 AM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: Right Wing Professor
If the hire were in chemistry (my field), which is closer to biology, a creationist job-seeker would worry me more; such views would be an absolute prohibition, IMO, if the hire were in biological chemistry.

Seems to me Mendel was a priest and he is one of the greatest lights in biology. In addition to which, biology has shown quite well that evolution is totally impossible so it is evolutionists that perhaps should be excluded. All these evo scientists do is make up stupid theories instead of doing real research. Where would we be in biology if the evolutionist's stupid claim that the 95% of DNA not in genes was junk?

Science, real science is open to all questions. It cherishes debate. You obviously are a very bad scientist if you are a scientist at all. Science has no truck with ideologues like yourself.

870 posted on 10/11/2002 4:13:02 AM PDT by gore3000
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To: Right Wing Professor
I consider creationists the single biggest impediment to conservatism on campus. A lot of scientists, engineers, and MDs are inherently conservative. But when I try to get them involved with organizations like NAS (which, AFAIK, has no position on evolution) they come back at me with attempts by creationsts to get 'equal time' in school, and ask 'how can you associate with fruitcakes like that?'.

Are they fruitcakes? While I don't have the vaguest idea of what NAS's agenda is, the fact that they have an agenda at all seems to me to be enough to disqualify them as a scientific organization. Science has no ideology. It is a search for truth and any organization with any kind of ideology is ipso factp non-scientific. Science and religious belief have never been opposites. In fact, many scientists have seen their religious beliefs reinforced by their scientific discoveries. You therefore are an ideologue and not a scientist. You do not care about truth, you only care about your ideology, your agenda. That is not what the scientific spirit is about.

871 posted on 10/11/2002 4:21:07 AM PDT by gore3000
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To: Right Wing Professor
I said that living organisms are physical entities subject to physical laws. That doesn't 'discount' information.

How can you have physical laws in a random universe? How do you create information at random? The basis of materialism and evolution totally contradict any possibility of scientific research. It is materialists that should not be allowed in the sciences if anything. However, since the Christians who you continually denigrate are not ideologues like yourself and Dr. Dini, we never propose such tyrannical criteria. We judge each man for himself and for his work not according to a pre-conceived agenda like you do.

872 posted on 10/11/2002 4:28:32 AM PDT by gore3000
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To: discostu
A teacher can refuse to write a letter of recommendation for whatever reason he wants.

That someone can do something does not make it morally correct. That you can steal something or murder someone and get away with it does not make it right. In civilized society rightful conduct includes fairness. When someone misuses their power to advance a personal agenda that is wrong, that is immoral and that is despicable. Dr. Dini does not belong in any sort of educational institution. He does not belong in any position of power. He should be fired. He is an ideologue, not and educator.

873 posted on 10/11/2002 4:34:14 AM PDT by gore3000
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To: inquest
I'm still trying to figure out what a "codon" is.

A codon is a set of three DNA bases. Since a single DNA base only has 4 possible codes, in order to code for the 20 amino acids used to make proteins a set of 3 DNA bases is needed to code for them. Therefore when transcribing DNA in order to make proteins, an organism needs to read the DNA by threes.

874 posted on 10/11/2002 4:38:24 AM PDT by gore3000
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To: lasereye
I meant don't say "If they don't believe in evolution, they don't understand biology".

I would go much further than you. I would say that if they believe in evolution they do not understand biology. Biology has shown that the simple-minded reductionist explanations of evolutionism are totally false.

875 posted on 10/11/2002 4:41:06 AM PDT by gore3000
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To: Right Wing Professor
When the think in bioinformatics, in genomics, we relate gene/protein sequences to other genes in the same organism, or in related organisms. The way those relationships arose is by evolution.

And the proof of the last sentence is???????

Should I wait another 150 years for an answer to the question above?

If someone didn't believe in evolution, then there would be no reason for them to expect, say, lemur sequences to be closer to humans than bacterial sequences.

With millions of species to choose from it is easy to find such favorable comparisons. The interesting thing though is that evolutionists (unlike real scientists) refuse to discuss anything but what favors their theory. Real scientists for example, when they wanted to find out more about the human genome examined not the monkey, not the lemur, but the fugu fish. They found that the genes of the fugu fish were so close to human genes that they were able to identify some 1,000 human genes which two different genome sequencing projects had been unable to identify. The Fugu Fish Project gives the details.

876 posted on 10/11/2002 4:56:18 AM PDT by gore3000
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To: talk2farley
Scientists with impressive credentials are leaving the doctrines of evolution. Unfortunately, no one has informed the general public.

As Science Digest reported:

Scientists who utterly reject Evolution may be one of our fastest-growing controversial minorities... Many of the scientists supporting this position hold impressive credentials in science.

Evolutionist Sir Fred Hoyle:

The notion that...the operating programme of a living cell could be arrived at by chance in a primordial soup here on the Earth is evidently nonsense of a high order.

Researcher and Mathematician I. L. Cohen:

At that moment, when the DNA/RNA system became understood, the debate between Evolutionists and Creationists should have come to a screeching halt. ...the implications of the DNA/RNA were obvious and clear. Mathematically speaking, based on probability concepts, there is no possibility that Evolution was the mechanism that created the approximately 6,000,000 species of plants and animals we recognize today.

Evolutionist Michael Denton:

The complexity of the simplest known type of cell is so great that it is impossible to accept that such an object could have been thrown together suddenly by some kind of freakish, vastly improbable, event. Such an occurrence would be indistinguishable from a miracle.

Peter Saunders (University of London) and Mae-Wan Ho (Open University):

From the claims made for neo-Darwinism one could easily get the impression that it has made great progress towards explaining Evolution, mostly leaving the details to be cleared up. In fact, quite the reverse is true.

Evolutionist Dr. Colin Patterson:

No one has ever produced a species by mechanisms of natural selection. No one has ever gotten near it...

Evolutionist Greg Kirby:

If you were to spend your life picking up bones and finding little fragments of head and little fragments of jaw, there's a very strong desire there to exaggerate the importance of those fragments...

Evolutionist Lord Solly Zuckerman:

Students of fossil primates have not been distinguished for caution... The record is so astonishing that it is legitimate to ask whether much science is...in this field at all.

Evolutionist Tom Kemp:

A circular argument arises: Interpret the fossil record in terms of a particular theory of evolution, inspect the interpretation, and note that it confirms the theory. Well, it would, wouldn't it?

Evolutionist Edmund Ambrose:

We have to admit that there is nothing in the geological records that runs contrary to the view of conservative creationists...

Paleontologist and Evolutionist Dr. Niles Eldredge, American Museum of Natural History:

The only competing explanation for the order we all see in the biological world is the notion of Special Creation.

Sir Fred Hoyle, astronomer, cosmologist, and mathematician, Cambridge University:

I have little hesitation in saying that a sickly pall now hangs over the big bang theory.

Thomas Barnes, Ph.D., physicist:

The best physical evidence that the earth is young is a dwindling resource that evolutionists refuse to admit is dwindling...the magnetic energy in the field of the earth's dipole magnet. ...To deny that it is a dwindling resource is phony physics.

Sir Fred Hoyle, astronomer, cosmologist, and mathematician, Cambridge University:

The likelihood of the formation of life from inanimate matter is one to a number with 40,000 noughts after it... It is big enough to bury Darwin and the whole theory of evolution. ...if the beginnings of life were not random, they must therefore have been the product of purposeful intelligence.

Molecular biologist Michael Denton:

Is it really credible that random processes could have constructed a reality, the smallest element of which—a functional protein or gene—is complex beyond...anything produced by the intelligence of man?

C. Everett Koop, former U.S. Surgeon General:

When I make an incision with my scalpel, I see organs of such intricacy that there simply hasn't been enough time for natural evolutionary processes to have developed them.

Mathematician P. Saunders and biologist M. Ho:

We ourselves would be less concerned about falsifiability if neo-Darwinism were a powerful theory with major successes to its credit. But this is simply not the case.

C. Martin in American Scientist:

The mass of evidence shows that all, or almost all, known mutations are unmistakably pathological and the few remaining ones are highly suspect.

Pierre-Paul Grassé, Evolutionist:

No matter how numerous they may be, mutations do not produce any kind of Evolution.

Arthur Koestler, author:

In the meantime, the educated public continues to believe that Darwin has provided all the relevant answers by the magic formula of random mutations plus natural selection—quite unaware of the fact that random mutations turned out to be irrelevant and natural selection a tautology.

Norman Macbeth:

Darwinism has failed in practice.

Lyall Watson, Ph.D., Evolutionist:

Modern apes...seem to have sprung out of nowhere. They have no yesterday, no fossil record. And the true origin of modern humans...is, if we are to be honest with ourselves, an equally mysterious matter.

Wolfgang Smith, Ph.D.:

The Evolutionist thesis has become more stringently unthinkable than ever before...

John Woodmorappe, geologist:

Eighty to eighty-five percent of Earth's land surface does not have even 3 geologic periods appearing in 'correct' consecutive order. ...it becomes an overall exercise of gargantuan special pleading and imagination for the evolutionary-uniformitarian paradigm to maintain that there ever were geologic periods.

Evolutionist S. Lovtrup:

Micromutations do occur, but the theory that these alone can account for evolutionary change is either falsified, or else it is an unfalsifiable, hence metaphysical theory. I suppose that nobody will deny that is a great misfortune if an entire branch of science becomes addicted to a false theory. But this is what has happened in biology: ...I believe that one day the Darwinian myth will be ranked the greatest deceit in the history of science. When this happens many people will pose the question: How did this ever happen?

J. O'Rourke in the American Journal of Science:

The intelligent layman has long suspected circular reasoning in the use of rocks to date fossils and fossils to date rocks. The geologist has never bothered to think of a good reply.

N. H. Nilsson, famous botanist and Evolutionist:

My attempts to demonstrate Evolution by an experiment carried on for more than 40 years have completely failed.

Luther Sunderland, science researcher:

None of the five museum officials could offer a single example of a transitional series of fossilized organisms that would document the transformation of one basically different type to another.

Tom Kemp of Oxford University:

As is well known, most fossil species appear instantaneously in the fossil record.

Francis Hitching, archaeologist:

The curious thing is that there is a consistency about the fossil gaps; the fossils are missing in all the important places.

David Kitts, paleontologist and Evolutionist:

Evolution requires intermediate forms between species and paleontology does not provide them.

Gary Parker, Ph.D., biologist and paleontologist and former Evolutionist:

Fossils are a great embarrassment to Evolutionary theory and offer strong support for the concept of Creation.

Wolfgang Smith, Ph.D., physicist and mathematician:

A growing number of respectable scientists are defecting from the evolutionist camp. ...moreover, for the most part these 'experts' have abandoned Darwinism, not on the basis of religious faith or biblical persuasions, but on strictly scientific grounds, and in some instances, regretfully.

I. Cohen, mathematician and archaeologist:

It is not the duty of science to defend the theory of Evolution, and stick by it to the bitter end—no matter what illogical and unsupported conclusions it offers...

Ludwig von Bertalanffy, biologist:

The fact that a theory so vague, so insufficiently verifiable, and so far from the criteria otherwise applied in 'hard' science has become a dogma can only be explained on sociological grounds.

Malcolm Muggeridge, well-known philosopher:

The theory of Evolution...will be one of the great jokes in the history books of the future. Posterity will marvel that so flimsy and dubious an hypothesis could be accepted with the incredible credulity that it has.

Dr. Colin Patterson, Senior Paleontologist, British Museum of Natural History, London. The following quote was taken from a speech given by Dr. Patterson:

Last year I had a sudden realization for over twenty years I had thought I was working on Evolution in some way. One morning I woke up and something had happened in the night, and it struck me that I had been working on this stuff for twenty years and there was not one thing I knew about it. That's quite a shock to learn that one can be so misled so long. Either there was something wrong with me or there was something wrong with Evolutionary theory. Naturally, I know there is nothing wrong with me, so the last few weeks I've tried putting a simple question to various people and groups of people. Question is: Can you tell me anything you KNOW about Evolution? Any one thing? Any one thing that is true?

I tried that question on the geology staff at the Field Museum of Natural History and the only answer I got was silence. I tried it on the members of the Evolutionary Morphology Seminar in the University of Chicago, a very prestigious body of Evolutionists, and all I got there was silence for a long time, and eventually one person said, "I do know one thing—it ought not to be taught in high school.

GOD SAID in Genesis, Chapter 1, Verse 1:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

MAN SAID that evolution is the answer to all life's questions. He said that this physical world is a product of actually nothing, exploded into real tangible building materials and through a process of time and chance evolving miraculously into what we are today. Man also says that the earth is billions of years old.

877 posted on 10/11/2002 4:59:27 AM PDT by Ready2go
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To: VadeRetro
It means there's a conflict with the tree in 715. Different molecular studies draw different trees all the time. So do different cladistic analyses. Different trees happen.

That is funny! 'Different trees happen'! I thought these folk were supposed to be scientists. How did it 'happen'? Their crayons went out of control?????????????

Also, I find your statement 'Different molecular studies draw different trees all the time' quite an admission from an evolutionist. I thought evolutionists claim that molecular analysis proves evolution? If you get different results from different studies then obviously there is no molecular clock, molecular analysis disproves evolution and all this tree drawing is a bunch of nonsense by adults playing with crayons.

878 posted on 10/11/2002 5:08:10 AM PDT by gore3000
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To: Nebullis
We have stated that a belief in creationism can be a negative indication for a career in science for which evolution is relevant.

And in what field of science would evolution be absolutely relevant?????

My answer is none. Certainly not in biology which has constantly disproved evolutionist assumptions.

879 posted on 10/11/2002 5:13:31 AM PDT by gore3000
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To: VadeRetro
Your Luddite screeches

Aaaah, the not so gentlemanly concession of an evolutionist when he loses a discussion! What's next, you are going to try to get the thread pulled like you and your friends have done numerous times when you are losing?

880 posted on 10/11/2002 5:17:20 AM PDT by gore3000
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