Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

CELLING LIES (Stem Cell Myths exposed by Michael Fumento)
National Review ^ | September 25th, 2002 | Michael Fumento

Posted on 09/29/2002 8:41:45 AM PDT by Sabertooth

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-66 next last
To: Torie
I think an injection would be appropriate myself. In fact, there was a murder trial on this very point many years ago in LA. The case was dismissed by the judge because the doctors lacked malice. The judge pulled a legal slight of hand.

Evidently.

How far does your support for euthanasia extend?




21 posted on 09/29/2002 10:34:36 AM PDT by Sabertooth
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: RadioAstronomer; Torie
I spoke in haste. I still think sentience does not exist at that time; however, your other arguments raise questions I am unable to address with a clear conscience.

I rescind my statement.

Hey, RA, I appreciate that, but couldn't you have waited more than 9 minutes?

Torie might think you're a ringer.




22 posted on 09/29/2002 10:36:59 AM PDT by Sabertooth
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Sabertooth
That is a complex question about which I have great ambivalence. It doesn't extend very far, but I haven't reached a fixed opinion as to exactly how far. I know you find it hard to believe I don't have a fixed opinion on everything. :)
23 posted on 09/29/2002 10:39:29 AM PDT by Torie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Torie
I know you find it hard to believe I don't have a fixed opinion on everything. :)

Why would you say that?

On not a few occasions I've indicated that I think your opinion needs fixing.




24 posted on 09/29/2002 10:46:41 AM PDT by Sabertooth
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Torie
Out of curiosity, at what hour of which day does sentience begin? Or are there degrees of sentience? If the latter, then what is the degree which deserves legal protection?
25 posted on 09/29/2002 10:52:12 AM PDT by KayEyeDoubleDee
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Sabertooth

26 posted on 09/29/2002 11:02:24 AM PDT by MeekOneGOP
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Torie
SIX WEEKS

The baby, a plump little being over half an inch long, with short arms and legs, floats in her amniotic sac, well moored by the umbilical cord. Though she weighs only 1/30 of an ounce, she has all the internal organs of an adult in various stages of development.

The baby's heart has been beating for a few weeks, the sex can be determined and brain waves can be measured.

"Within the sac was a tiny human male swimming extremely vigorously in the amniotic fluid. This tiny human was perfectly developed with long tapering fingers, feet and toes. The baby was extremely alive and swam about the sac approximately one time per second."

Paul E. Rockwell,M.D., describing the baby whose photograph is shown at left

Looks sentient to me. :-}

27 posted on 09/29/2002 11:11:03 AM PDT by jwalsh07
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Torie
I don't think embryonic life in the first trimester should receive legal protection, because I don't think there is any sentinence.

Do you mean to say, sentience?

28 posted on 09/29/2002 11:19:04 AM PDT by Old Professer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Old Professer
Ya, thanks.
29 posted on 09/29/2002 11:20:56 AM PDT by Torie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Torie
Easterbrook acknowledges brain waves by the sixth week but dismisses them becasue they don't fit neatly into his thesis. So, now we have two classes of brain wave activity which he would use to measure sentience, one type he says gives the baby rights and one type he says doesn't. It gets very messy.
30 posted on 09/29/2002 11:22:07 AM PDT by jwalsh07
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: jwalsh07
Interesting. I guess my question is how the fetus can move without brain waves. But the Easterbrook article said not brain waves until close to the end of the first trimester as I recall.
31 posted on 09/29/2002 11:23:09 AM PDT by Torie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: jwalsh07
What are the two classes?
32 posted on 09/29/2002 11:25:20 AM PDT by Torie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Torie
The judge pulled a legal slight of hand.

You're spelling is arguing against your reason (sleight); earlier you said a priori assumptions were crucial to determining protection of life issues, now you seem to be substituting opinion for foundation, hardly scientific.

33 posted on 09/29/2002 11:25:21 AM PDT by Old Professer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Old Professer
I think you are mixing apples and oranges professor. The judge deliberately distorted the legal meaning of malice. That is not an assumption, that is a legal fact.
34 posted on 09/29/2002 11:27:20 AM PDT by Torie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: jwalsh07
Let's see....

To check reactions (potential self-awareness and consciousness) ... examine the baby by, say, poking it with a sharp object ...

During abortions, the baby responds (vigorously!) to the pain and torment being induced as it is torn apart and killed.

And THAT indicates life. Life independent of, but connected to, the mother.
35 posted on 09/29/2002 11:28:59 AM PDT by Robert A Cook PE
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Sabertooth
My cousin was an intern at UCSF in the mid-1980s, and in 1985 he told me that anal sex between homosexual men was and would remain the principle vector of transmission.

Is there any reason to believe that anal sex between homosexual men is a more effective disease vector than anal sex between a man and a woman? My impression is that in Africa the latter is the primary disease vector.

36 posted on 09/29/2002 11:30:41 AM PDT by supercat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Torie
What are the two classes?

The first trimester measurable EEG waves vs the third trimester measurable EEG waves.

Obviously they are different because of the baby's development but he has drawn a third trimester line not based on EEG measurement but based on his feeling that the third trimester EEG is evidence of sentience but the more basic EEG of the first trimester isn't.

Purely arbitrary because he simply can not know.

37 posted on 09/29/2002 11:31:04 AM PDT by jwalsh07
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Robert A. Cook, PE
You'll get no argument from me Robert.
38 posted on 09/29/2002 11:34:16 AM PDT by jwalsh07
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Torie
Interesting. I guess my question is how the fetus can move without brain waves.

A chicken with its head cut off my look rather lively, but that doesn't make it any less dead.

I find even early-term abortios disturbing, but given the status quo (abortion on demand any time for any reason) I think it's best to work on convincing people at a 39-week fetus deserves protection. Don't agree that a 38-week fetus doesn't, but agree to put off discussion of the 38-week fetus until there's concensus on the 39-week one. Once concensus has been reached on the 39-week one, then work on the 38-week one, again putting off discussion of the 37-week one.

If Republicans were smart, they could probably use a strategy like the above to significantly reduce society's acceptance of abortion over the next 25 years or so, and would actually gain votes at the polls for doing so. Their current wishy-washy stance costs them votes while netting nearly nothing in the way of useful results.

39 posted on 09/29/2002 11:34:59 AM PDT by supercat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: jwalsh07
Here is what Easterbrook wrote:

"The zygotes that do implant soon transform into embryos. During its early growth, an embryo is sufficiently undifferentiated that it is impossible to distinguish which tissue will end up as part of the new life and which will be discarded as placenta. By about the sixth week the embryo gives way to the fetus, which has a recognizable human shape. (It was during the embryo-fetus transition, Augustine believed, that the soul is acquired, and this was Catholic doctrine for most of the period from the fifth century until 1869.) Also around the sixth week, faint electrical activity can be detected from the fetal nervous system. Some pro-life commentators say this means that brain activity begins during the sixth week, but, according to Dr. Martha Herbert, a neurologist at Massachusetts General Hospital, there is little research to support that claim. Most neurologists assume that electrical activity in the first trimester represents random neuron firings as nerves connect--basically, tiny spasms."

Whew, I thought you had me on the ropes for a moment, and would have to revisit a judgment I made on this issue many long years ago, albeit with less information.

40 posted on 09/29/2002 11:38:31 AM PDT by Torie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-66 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson