Posted on 09/02/2002 3:02:49 PM PDT by Sparqi
Recently I was stopped on my way out of KMart by an employee asking to see my receipt and contents of my bags. I asked if I was suspected of doing something illegal to which he replied, "No, it's just our policy to match purchases against your receipt." I told him that unless he had reasonable cause to believe that I'd done something illegal there was no way I was going to let him inspect either one. To his credit, he did not press the issue and allowed me to leave.
The practice of door-checking seems to have started at either Fry's Electronics in California or perhaps at PriceClub/Costco. In the latter case they can enforce the inspection policy because there is actually a clause in the Costco membership agreement which specifically states that a condition of membership is granting them the right to inspect as you leave. (This is why I don't have a Costco membership.) Fry's has been doing inspections for some time, giving rise to the perjorative term "Door-Nazis". Many people such as myself simply walk by the checkpoint and refuse to stop, since Fry's is not a membership store. Essentially they take advantage of your good nature and ask you to voluntarily waive your freedom (and your dignity) to help them control their shrinkage.
Until recently the Fry's policy was really a local issue, confined to California and some western states; so I never really pursued any activism against them...aside from personally advocating to other people that the practice was an insult and explaining that while Fry's can of course *request* that you stop and allow inspection that they cannot *force* you to stop if they don't have probable cause. Now that KMart is doing this, I think it's national enough to warrant a Freep. Here's what I'm proposing:
1. Make it a point to not be cowed into consenting to the search. If they ask to inspect your purchases, ask them if they suspect you of doing anything illegal. This establishes that they do or don't have cause to stop you. Remember; once you've paid for your purchases and they've accepted the payment, you are carrying personal property and they have cannot search you unless they have probable cause such as evidence of shoplifting.
2. If they admit that they don't have cause, tell them you don't consent to being searched and leave. If they press the issue, remind them that the Fourth Amendment guarantees your right against illegal searches. (Sometimes this is hard to explain, because the checker is not an American citizen.) If they try to restrain you, don't fight them or put up a physical struggle. Ask to speak to the most senior manager of the store immediately. Point out to him or her the illegality of the situation and ask if they're prepared to defend their actions in a court of law.
3. Instruct your friends/family/co-workers on the issue. Make sure they understand that what KMart is doing is an insult and a violation of their basic rights.
...dtw
That's ok. I don't take offense. You are right to question. The Fry's (an electronics store) at Northwest Highway near I-635 in Dallas County, Texas, as of last year (we haven't been back) did exactly that. On the way in. Not out. Checking bags. They have/had over 7 employees (as of last year) at the front to check people going in and out. It was like an airport.
We don't do business with them now.
/john
They (the store employees) do have a right to search you if you are on their property. If you don't want to be searched, don't go on their property. The 4th Amendment argument only applies to LEOs who are conducting searches. There is such a thing as private property rights you know.
You're right, the fourth ammendment would't be an issue here. But, if you are detained against your wishes (assuming you're not actually stealing something and charges filed) false arrest and false imprisonment are. This is the stuff lawsuits are made of.
Make a big scene though, and you can legally be banned from the store by the mgt.
I agree with you though, it is really just a minor inconvenience that I don't mind all that much if it will help the owners cut down on their losses (and my prices).
Uhh. No. You're saying if I invite you over for dinner I can physically search you- that I have a right to do so? I don't think so.
You don't HAVE to let them check your bags.
And they don't HAVE to let you shop at their store.
No, they don't. They can ask me to leave, if I don't comply with a request to be searched. That's the most they can do. They can't search me, hit me, or abuse me if I'm not trespassing.
I understand personal property rights. If you invite the general public onto your property, without caveat, then they are what you get. Weapons and all. That's why Texas included the caveat for concealed carry to retailers. Retailers and others can say they don't want weapons on the property. The most they can do, is invoke trespass laws.
/john
In Texas, if you carry a weapon onto a retailer's site who has posted the properly worded sign (there's an "official sign"), you are guilty of a misdemeanor, can be fined, and will lose your concealed-carry license.
The idea of any store demanding to look into a customer's purse is extremely disturbing. On the other hand, I have no problem with allowing the store personnel to look at my receipt and compare it to the contents of my shopping cart as I leave.
Not just retailers, but employers also.
The "correct" sign is seldom seen. But the liquor stores seem to do a good job of it, even if you can't carry there.
You need to be CONVICTED of the midemeanor, and the fine and license loss is negotiable in a court of law.
/john
Yea, right.
Just wondering, my friend, what is your store number? I didn't know until I looked, there are 11 in your area.
Bill in Hershey.
And folks wonder why internet sales are taking off? Sheesh.
/john
I don't want to really get into the middle of this one, but in the scenario you describe, that could be construed as a form of "probable cause/suspicion" ie, you had strong reason to believe that something was stolen. The store can do it too if they have a good strong reason to think you stole something. But unless they post a sign on the door saying you must submit your bags to search after paying or the cashier says as much to you before you buy your items, they don't have any "right" to search your stuff. They can simply ask and rely on your cooperation but if you don't want to let them- there's nothing they can do.
There are other issues involved here of course. If I knew a store did that- I wouldn't shop there. But if I didn't know they did it and was stopped at the door and asked to show them my belongings- I wouldn't do so and then I wouldn't shop there. Obviously, the store can ban me as well- which is their right.
But all that's irrelevent. Regardless of whether someone is just being a pain in the ass by not showing the bags/receipt at the door- the store doesn't have a right to search you unless they suspect you stole and personally I won't shop at a store that treats me like a crook without a reason. There's more important things to me than low prices.
All this wasn't directed at you, BTW, figured while I was at it I might as well... ;-)
I guess at this point, it seems an inconvenience at worst, that I am willing to entertain for the benefit of lower prices. If it bothered me I would go to another store.
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