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Freep KMart on exit-door search policy

Posted on 09/02/2002 3:02:49 PM PDT by Sparqi

Recently I was stopped on my way out of KMart by an employee asking to see my receipt and contents of my bags. I asked if I was suspected of doing something illegal to which he replied, "No, it's just our policy to match purchases against your receipt." I told him that unless he had reasonable cause to believe that I'd done something illegal there was no way I was going to let him inspect either one. To his credit, he did not press the issue and allowed me to leave.

The practice of door-checking seems to have started at either Fry's Electronics in California or perhaps at PriceClub/Costco. In the latter case they can enforce the inspection policy because there is actually a clause in the Costco membership agreement which specifically states that a condition of membership is granting them the right to inspect as you leave. (This is why I don't have a Costco membership.) Fry's has been doing inspections for some time, giving rise to the perjorative term "Door-Nazis". Many people such as myself simply walk by the checkpoint and refuse to stop, since Fry's is not a membership store. Essentially they take advantage of your good nature and ask you to voluntarily waive your freedom (and your dignity) to help them control their shrinkage.

Until recently the Fry's policy was really a local issue, confined to California and some western states; so I never really pursued any activism against them...aside from personally advocating to other people that the practice was an insult and explaining that while Fry's can of course *request* that you stop and allow inspection that they cannot *force* you to stop if they don't have probable cause. Now that KMart is doing this, I think it's national enough to warrant a Freep. Here's what I'm proposing:

1. Make it a point to not be cowed into consenting to the search. If they ask to inspect your purchases, ask them if they suspect you of doing anything illegal. This establishes that they do or don't have cause to stop you. Remember; once you've paid for your purchases and they've accepted the payment, you are carrying personal property and they have cannot search you unless they have probable cause such as evidence of shoplifting.

2. If they admit that they don't have cause, tell them you don't consent to being searched and leave. If they press the issue, remind them that the Fourth Amendment guarantees your right against illegal searches. (Sometimes this is hard to explain, because the checker is not an American citizen.) If they try to restrain you, don't fight them or put up a physical struggle. Ask to speak to the most senior manager of the store immediately. Point out to him or her the illegality of the situation and ask if they're prepared to defend their actions in a court of law.

3. Instruct your friends/family/co-workers on the issue. Make sure they understand that what KMart is doing is an insult and a violation of their basic rights.

...dtw


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism
KEYWORDS: 4thamendment; constitution; fourthamendment; illegalsearch; kmart
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To: alnick
but if that is the case (no offense, but I find that questionable), that would be way out of line.

That's ok. I don't take offense. You are right to question. The Fry's (an electronics store) at Northwest Highway near I-635 in Dallas County, Texas, as of last year (we haven't been back) did exactly that. On the way in. Not out. Checking bags. They have/had over 7 employees (as of last year) at the front to check people going in and out. It was like an airport.

We don't do business with them now.

/john

121 posted on 09/02/2002 6:07:07 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper
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To: JRandomFreeper
They don't have a right to search us.

They (the store employees) do have a right to search you if you are on their property. If you don't want to be searched, don't go on their property. The 4th Amendment argument only applies to LEOs who are conducting searches. There is such a thing as private property rights you know.

122 posted on 09/02/2002 6:11:27 PM PDT by FreedomCalls
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To: BulletBrasDotNet
After perusing your website, I think the store just might have a reason to be concerned. You've got some pretty big hiding places in your, um, rigging device!
123 posted on 09/02/2002 6:13:40 PM PDT by Diddle E. Squat
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To: Dog Gone
The Fourth Amendment only applies to government searches. Always has.

You're right, the fourth ammendment would't be an issue here. But, if you are detained against your wishes (assuming you're not actually stealing something and charges filed) false arrest and false imprisonment are. This is the stuff lawsuits are made of.

Make a big scene though, and you can legally be banned from the store by the mgt.

I agree with you though, it is really just a minor inconvenience that I don't mind all that much if it will help the owners cut down on their losses (and my prices).

124 posted on 09/02/2002 6:17:48 PM PDT by templar
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To: FreedomCalls
They (the store employees) do have a right to search you if you are on their property.

Uhh. No. You're saying if I invite you over for dinner I can physically search you- that I have a right to do so? I don't think so.

125 posted on 09/02/2002 6:18:50 PM PDT by Prodigal Son
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To: southern rock
Baloney.

Say you come into my house and buy a wooden chest from me. You give me cash, I go into another room to get a pen and write a receipt. I come back, hand you the receipt, but as you are carrying the chest out(but still in my house) I notice that some of my books seem to be missing. Do I have a right to search your new chest before you leave my house?
126 posted on 09/02/2002 6:19:14 PM PDT by Diddle E. Squat
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To: AppyPappy
No I was just entertained by your "You have to let them do it" mentality.

You don't HAVE to let them check your bags.

And they don't HAVE to let you shop at their store.

127 posted on 09/02/2002 6:20:33 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: Sparqi
I am sure someone else has already posted this, but just don't patronize the place. I love these places, because I want the merchants to charge the lowest price possible, and do that means cutting back on the cost of theft.
128 posted on 09/02/2002 6:21:37 PM PDT by Torie
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To: FreedomCalls
do have a right to search you if you are on their property.

No, they don't. They can ask me to leave, if I don't comply with a request to be searched. That's the most they can do. They can't search me, hit me, or abuse me if I'm not trespassing.

I understand personal property rights. If you invite the general public onto your property, without caveat, then they are what you get. Weapons and all. That's why Texas included the caveat for concealed carry to retailers. Retailers and others can say they don't want weapons on the property. The most they can do, is invoke trespass laws.

/john

129 posted on 09/02/2002 6:22:26 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper
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To: JRandomFreeper
That's why Texas included the caveat for concealed carry to retailers. Retailers and others can say they don't want weapons on the property. The most they can do, is invoke trespass laws.

In Texas, if you carry a weapon onto a retailer's site who has posted the properly worded sign (there's an "official sign"), you are guilty of a misdemeanor, can be fined, and will lose your concealed-carry license.

130 posted on 09/02/2002 6:27:36 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: JRandomFreeper
Thanks for understanding that I wasn't calling you a liar. If anyone tried to look into my purse, at the very least I would never shop there again, unless the store management fired the person and explained that it's not their policy, but rather an employee who was out of control and profusely apologized to me.

The idea of any store demanding to look into a customer's purse is extremely disturbing. On the other hand, I have no problem with allowing the store personnel to look at my receipt and compare it to the contents of my shopping cart as I leave.

131 posted on 09/02/2002 6:28:05 PM PDT by alnick
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To: Sparqi
They've done this at the 24-hour Walmart here in Rome, New York on occasion.
132 posted on 09/02/2002 6:32:29 PM PDT by mass55th
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To: sinkspur
In Texas, if you carry a weapon onto a retailer's site who has posted the properly worded sign (there's an "official sign"), you are guilty of a misdemeanor, can be fined, and will lose your concealed-carry license.

Not just retailers, but employers also.

The "correct" sign is seldom seen. But the liquor stores seem to do a good job of it, even if you can't carry there.

You need to be CONVICTED of the midemeanor, and the fine and license loss is negotiable in a court of law.

/john

133 posted on 09/02/2002 6:34:22 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper
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To: Sparqi
This is next....


134 posted on 09/02/2002 6:39:58 PM PDT by ErnBatavia
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To: Budge
Would you please shut up and open the stupid door for me?

Yea, right.

Just wondering, my friend, what is your store number? I didn't know until I looked, there are 11 in your area.

Bill in Hershey.

135 posted on 09/02/2002 6:40:07 PM PDT by AGreatPer
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To: alnick
Store policy for the local Fry's is/was to inspect all bags coming into the store. Fanny packs, purses, everything. They lost a lot of CCW folks last year. And a lot of folks that don't want to play "search me". I don't have time to screw around with someone that thinks I'm ripping them off. Or thier 68 point IQ minions at the front door.

And folks wonder why internet sales are taking off? Sheesh.

/john

136 posted on 09/02/2002 6:42:02 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper
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To: Diddle E. Squat
Say you come into my house and buy a wooden chest from me. You give me cash, I go into another room to get a pen and write a receipt. I come back, hand you the receipt, but as you are carrying the chest out(but still in my house) I notice that some of my books seem to be missing. Do I have a right to search your new chest before you leave my house?

I don't want to really get into the middle of this one, but in the scenario you describe, that could be construed as a form of "probable cause/suspicion" ie, you had strong reason to believe that something was stolen. The store can do it too if they have a good strong reason to think you stole something. But unless they post a sign on the door saying you must submit your bags to search after paying or the cashier says as much to you before you buy your items, they don't have any "right" to search your stuff. They can simply ask and rely on your cooperation but if you don't want to let them- there's nothing they can do.

There are other issues involved here of course. If I knew a store did that- I wouldn't shop there. But if I didn't know they did it and was stopped at the door and asked to show them my belongings- I wouldn't do so and then I wouldn't shop there. Obviously, the store can ban me as well- which is their right.

But all that's irrelevent. Regardless of whether someone is just being a pain in the ass by not showing the bags/receipt at the door- the store doesn't have a right to search you unless they suspect you stole and personally I won't shop at a store that treats me like a crook without a reason. There's more important things to me than low prices.

All this wasn't directed at you, BTW, figured while I was at it I might as well... ;-)

137 posted on 09/02/2002 6:49:47 PM PDT by Prodigal Son
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To: southern rock
You're right it is now your private property.

I guess at this point, it seems an inconvenience at worst, that I am willing to entertain for the benefit of lower prices. If it bothered me I would go to another store.

138 posted on 09/02/2002 6:59:12 PM PDT by pfflier
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To: jmax
You are correct about my limited travels. Never get much farther from Buttcrack (Columbus) than Tuscaloosa or Tupelo unless I'm chaperoning the HS Band. Usually hit a Wal-Mart to pick up one lost thing or another on those trips. Have also traveled back home to West Texas once but Jackson is about as far south as I've gotten.

The band may be traveling to Perkinston in November for a marching contest. I'll FReepmail you once details are firm. Maybe we can share a hotdog and cheer for the bands. Good music, good times, and by November the mosquitos are only big enough to abduct pets and small farm animals.
139 posted on 09/02/2002 7:05:51 PM PDT by NerdDad
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To: Kaslin
Well...guess what, the store that asks to see your ID when you use a credit/debit card is correct and the other two are wrong.

Visa/MasterCard/Discover/AMEX policy is to check the ID of the person using the card to insure that the person using the card is the one that it is issued to. It's to your advantage, the credit card company's advantage, and the retailer's advantage.

Your advantage that if your card is stolen it will be recovered, and the theif caught, if this occurs the first time it is used you aren't even out the deductable.

The credit card company doesn't have to absorb the losses over the deductable amount.

And the retailer is given a reward for recovering the stolen cards, and isn't possibly liable for allowing the card to be used for theft. AMEX will charge you back if you allow this, and the others can, but often don't, depending on the amount and or recovery of the merchandise.
140 posted on 09/02/2002 7:24:59 PM PDT by PeaceBeWithYou
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