The disunited states

Townhall.com ^ | August 15, 2002 | Cal Thomas

[gubamyster]

August 15, 2002

As more information from the 2000 Census is released, it's increasingly clear that this is not our parents' country. Ethically, it stopped being their country in the 1960s. Ethnically, it now resembles not a united nation, but a United Nations, with divisions along class, racial, religious, language and ideological lines. Our national motto, E pluribus unum ("out of many, one,") no longer applies.

Census figures show that one out of every nine residents is now foreign-born. The response from politicians? Many are signing up for Spanish lessons. They should be telling immigrants to sign up for English lessons.

Yes, we are a nation of immigrants. There is a difference, however, between the way immigrants were treated a century ago during the Great Wave, and how they are treated today.

Then, they were expected to become part of America, which included speaking our language, knowing our history and respecting our traditions. Now, they are allowed -- indeed, encouraged -- to remain who they are and not bother to learn English or care about American history. Then, we sought to make Americans of immigrants. Today, we hyphenate their citizenship and tell them they may continue to bear allegiance to other countries and causes.

Here are only a few examples of how bad the situation has become: The safety video on the Delta Shuttle between Washington and New York is delivered in both Spanish and English; this November, Denver and several other Colorado counties designated as bilingual counties must print election ballots in English and Spanish; the Department of Justice has ordered Harris County, Texas (which encompasses Houston) to start providing ballots and voting materials in Vietnamese.

Part of the reason for this forming of a less perfect union is that we are no longer sure of ourselves. Embarrassed by our success and riches, we think we're doing the world a favor by engaging in self-flagellation, refusing to repeat for the next generation what was handed to us by the previous one.

A Texas schoolteacher wrote to express his frustration:

"We were raised with 'ultimate consequences' which would dictate punishment when there was no discipline ('When your father gets home...,' 'Your mother wouldn't approve of this...')," he noted. "Now, it's a question of how people can beat the law, rather than uphold it." This especially applies to those immigrants who have seen that if they can get to America illegally, their chances are good of winning amnesty and remaining in this country.

King Solomon warned: "Where there is no vision, the people cast off restraint" (Proverbs 29:18). The casting off of restraint is what characterizes us now, from corporate boardrooms to private bedrooms. If immigrants know only how to get here and do not learn what made America so attractive to them, they will live by their own standards, just as we who were born here are doing in increasing numbers, further undermining our strength and cohesiveness.

In his 1992 book, "The Tyranny of Change: America in the Progressive Era: 1890-1920," John Whiteclay Chambers wrote of the great immigration wave of a century ago, noting that a majority of arrivals in this country never intended to stay. Many hoped that "after a few years of work, they could save enough money to return home to an improved position for themselves and their families."

"Although the majority of new immigrants permanently settled in America, a significant number left (with a departure rate of 35 percent for Croatians, Poles, Serbs and Slovenes; 40 percent for Greeks; and more than 50 percent for Hungarians, Slovaks and Italians; the rate among Asian immigrants was much higher, more than two-thirds)," Chambers wrote. Today the departure rate is only about 15 percent and anyone who gets here, even illegally, can now expect his or relatives to legally follow.

Many of those who stayed a century ago had poor skills and became part of large ghettos in major urban areas, where poverty continues to drain human and financial resources. The 1990 Census indicated that ethnic enclaves were huge and growing. In the city of Miami today, about half of the population speaks English poorly or not at all, new census figures show, and 74 percent of residents speak a language other than English at home.

A source for additional facts about how we have failed to assimilate immigrants can be found on the Web page of the Federation for American Immigration Reform (www.fairus.org/).

It would help if we would re-discover what once was considered "self-evident" truths about America, disdaining relativity. If we can't do that for those already here, we will be of no use to current and future immigrants and cannot sustain ourselves as the United States.

[rmlew]

I'm the first member of my family born in the US. I am a jewish son and grandson of Holocaust survivors. I am not a fan of the KKK. Read my comments.

I am sorry for posting the comment. I thought I was freepmailing Philip Augustus.

[discostu]

You're deliberately misunderstanding me.

With regard to our culture being "destroyed" it's a simple if/ then statement. IF our culture gets destroyed by a force so pathetic as a bunch of drunken college kids THEN obviously our culture was pretty sad. This isn't a statement of wishing or even a judgement of our culture as it stands today. I'm simply saying that any culture worth respecting could handle this "threat". Because I don't even think it's a threat it should be painfully clear that I think we're more than up to the "challenge" and our culture deserves to live.

Why shouldn't we allow our immigrants to look like the world? In case you haven't checked in on Europe recently they're no shining example of free market capitalism. Given that the EU is pissed at Ireland for having such "low" taxes (about 3 times ours in most brackets) I'd say there's just as much risk of "socialist contaminiation" coming from them as from anywhere else.

OMG they got rid of Columbus Day in one university... almost. AZ traded Columbus Day for MLK Day and that's state wide. Which goes back to my ongoing theme that everything you guys accuse the Hispanics of doing the black are doing more effectively (not that I'm anti-balck, just pointing out the flaws in your "reasoning"). What little observance there is of Columbus Day here is heavily protested by the Indians.

Watch out what you say about the CA Mexicans, one big group of them just came out in favor of Simon.

The whole world loses what? Sorry I've read enough history to know that eventually somebody will try this experiment again. Not like we were the first to go in for a representative government and free market capitalism, and I have seirous doubt we'll be the last. And maybe the next group won't be so fast to vote themselves into destruction. Another thing I've learned is that eventually ALL countries die. Maybe it's our time. I don't think so, but who can say. At least you're finally starting to grock who'd be at fault if it is time for the American epoch to end.

Great I love your last paragraph. That's all I've been looking for. Of course the illegal immigration thing is truly impossible to stop, but we should try. Truthfully the only way we'll ever have a significant impact on Mexican immigration is to make Mexico a nice place to live. I have no problem with an across the board shut down of legal immigration, I have no problem with turning up the effort to stop/ evict illegal immigrants. I only have a problem with people running around claiming the Mexicans are destroying America. Not only is that supid bigotry, it's factually incorrect.

[discostu]

Given some of the crap Jesse Jackson says about blacks I've always believed bigotry can focus on one's own group. Not that I think you necessarily do, but running around saying people hate their country isn't going to make you any friends.

We cool.

[rmlew]

With regard to our culture being "destroyed" it's a simple if/ then statement. IF our culture gets destroyed by a force so pathetic as a bunch of drunken college kids THEN obviously our culture was pretty sad. This isn't a statement of wishing or even a judgement of our culture as it stands today. I'm simply saying that any culture worth respecting could handle this "threat". Because I don't even think it's a threat it should be painfully clear that I think we're more than up to the "challenge" and our culture deserves to live.
Americans kids don't know thier history, but know that their grandparents and parents are racists.
American voters don't know the difference between a Democracy adn a Republic and consistantly vote in Politicians who bribe them with their own money.
We have lost the cultural certainty to assimilate children and immigrants into the best of our history and culture, creating a future of people who hate our past.
Educated Americans are not having children.
In light of this, how are you an optimist?

Why shouldn't we allow our immigrants to look like the world? In case you haven't checked in on Europe recently they're no shining example of free market capitalism. Given that the EU is pissed at Ireland for having such "low" taxes (about 3 times ours in most brackets) I'd say there's just as much risk of "socialist contaminiation" coming from them as from anywhere else.
1. European immigrants to the US vote Republican. Immigrants from Latin America, except for Cuba, vote democrat.
2. Any immigrant can be a socialist. I would like to see some ideological pledge by immigrants before we accept them.
3. Europeans are easier to assimilate than Third Worlders.

OMG they got rid of Columbus Day in one university... almost. AZ traded Columbus Day for MLK Day and that's state wide. Which goes back to my ongoing theme that everything you guys accuse the Hispanics of doing the black are doing more effectively (not that I'm anti-balck, just pointing out the flaws in your "reasoning"). What little observance there is of Columbus Day here is heavily protested by the Indians.
You didn't have a Chicano group hold a die in infront of a Columbus Day BBQ, did you?
Seriously though do we really want to import a second class of racially disaffected citizens?

Watch out what you say about the CA Mexicans, one big group of them just came out in favor of Simon.

I had this discussion with David Horowitz over Bush and the CA vote in 2000. I lost. Bush broke the 30% mark. That is not promising. If Simon gets the Hispanic vote to come within 5% of the white vote, I'll reconsider.

The whole world loses what? Sorry I've read enough history to know that eventually somebody will try this experiment again.
Didn't you just spend a paragraph explaining that you are a Patriot. You are contradicting yourself.
I would note that Democratic Capitalism is widespread because of teh US. If it fails, so do others. Besides, name one country that has been as free as us for 50 years.

Not like we were the first to go in for a representative government and free market capitalism, and I have seirous doubt we'll be the last.
When Rome fell, the Eastern Empire survived. Still Western Europe was lost for 1000 years.

And maybe the next group won't be so fast to vote themselves into destruction. Another thing I've learned is that eventually ALL countries die. Maybe it's our time. I don't think so, but who can say. At least you're finally starting to grock who'd be at fault if it is time for the American epoch to end.
All countries die and normally through decay. However external factors can always hasten the fall.
The Roman Empire fell because it was corrupt. However, the invasion of the Germans hastened the fall and prevented any real renaisance of Rome.
Marcus Aurelius may have tried, but he was too busy dealing with the Goths to reform the bureacracy and taxes.
America is not lost. It can be saved, but extern al pressure must be removed.

Great I love your last paragraph. That's all I've been looking for. Of course the illegal immigration thing is truly impossible to stop, but we should try. Truthfully the only way we'll ever have a significant impact on Mexican immigration is to make Mexico a nice place to live.
Hence the complete failure of our policy vis-a-vis even a "reformer" like Vincente Fox.

I have no problem with an across the board shut down of legal immigration, I have no problem with turning up the effort to stop/ evict illegal immigrants. I only have a problem with people running around claiming the Mexicans are destroying America. Not only is that supid bigotry, it's factually incorrect.
Large scal immigration from a neighboring country poses a problem unile any other. There are millions of Mexicans and illegal Mexican aliens who believe that they are entitled to live in the American Southwest and that America should adapt or leave. It is the 1820's again. It is a reconquista.

[discostu]

I thought talking bad about the country was hating it. Why is it my comment was hating the country and yours isn't, what gives?

Really I just don't believe in all this doom and gloom crap. Do we have problems? Duh. Have we had problems since the minute we signed the Declaration? Yup. Have we over come them all? So far. Will we eventually screw the pooch? Damn straight. Do I think that's going to happen any time soon? Nope. Do I think it will be caused by some Mexican invasion? Hell no.



You need to recheck your numbers. The Latin vote was pretty evenly split. Given how many European immigrants stay on the east coast, and how solidly the east coast goes to the Dems I don't think they're helping us out much. Of course the real punchline is that it's perfectly legal to be a leftist in this country. If we start basing immigrant policy on how we think they're gonna vote we'll get serious fuqed next time the Dems are in charge. And we won't be able to cry foul because we did it first. Again I have yet to see where the hispanics/ third worlders/ Mexican or whatever the hell you want to call them today are assimilating AT ALL differently than the European immigration boom from the late 19th and early 20th century. You keep insisting it, but you haven't proven it, and I ain't buying it.
What's "holding a die"? We do annually have a big protest from the Indian community blaming Columbus for the destruction of the Indian tribes. And we don't get Columbus Day BBQ's because it's not a holiday because the black community talked us into trading it for MLK Day so we could get a Super Bowl. Again, you're talking stuff I don't see and don't believe. I don't see the Mexicans as either second class (hoo boy there's a racist statement if I've ever seen one) or racially disaffected.

All I know is the facts. And the facts are a big group has thrown its support to Simon. What effect it's gonna have, who knows. But it does show that your blanket statement is incorrect.

Hey, America has had a good influence on the world. Of course on the other hand we also gave the world Brittney Spears. And of course just because we went away doesn't mean our positive influence would end. Looking forward, what are the FUTURE contributions that would be lost if America went away? I do love this country, but I'm not stupid. The world goes on. As free as us the last 50 years or just any old 50 years? The last 50 years nobody. Any old 50 years, The Roman Republic is good, the Athenian Republic kicked butt. Admittedly this is a rare experiment. But also admittedly it seems to keep coming back. And we're a Republic. Given that you complained about people not knowing the difference that's a pretty sad slip.

Western Europe wasn't "lost". It was right there. It went through some changes, mostly for the worst, but they came out the other side in pretty good shape. And the Eastern Empire sucked. Turkey is all that's left of that. The Roman Empire fell for a lot of reasons, not the least ofwhich was that it was just too damn big for the technology of the time. Of course by the time it became the Roman Empire the experiment we're repeating was already over. Of course you forget why the Germans invaded also. They invaded because they hated Rome, they'd always hated Rome, and Rome wouldn't leave them the hell alone. Rome finally conquered them, and when Rome got weak they struck back. But again, by that point Rome was an Empire and not a Republic. The Republic was dead.

We have a policy towards Fox? All I've seen is that him and GW like to hang out. Other than letting Fox give his speeches I haven't seen a policy. I see no problem with treating him as a friend, you get to keep a better eye on friends.

Again, I ain't buying what your selling. You have YET to show that Mexican immigrants are behaving at all differently from any other group of immigrants in history. Since the previous groups weren't a problem there is no impricial evidence that the Mexicans will be a problem. Show how they're different and there's something to discuss. Until then it's just racist ranting against a people that have done nothing to deserve your ire.

[Jamten]

Finally someone start to talk some sence on this forum. When I suggest people to speak English and not their noisy native tongue at work e.g. I am suddenly the bad guy for some reason. Even the people at freerepublic.com thinks I am bad for suggesting people to stick to English.

[Jamten]

They are going home to their 3rd world hole with the knowledge they gained raping the USA. They don't care at all about this country. They just want their money and couldn't care less about doing what the Romans do.

[Jamten]

Typical liberal action to hit below the belt.

[Jamten]

Sweden is another example. The thing you mentioned about babbling is so true. I have had to put up with it for years now and I really hate to work in my office. They do not even quiet down during company meetings or even group meeting or group lunches. Just go on babbling the whole day long. The fact that the office has very poor acustics doesn't make the situation any better. I feel very isolated and alienated.
Really, I do not have so much trouble with the mexicans. Here it is mainly the poeple from China that is the culprits.

[Jamten]

Well spoken. I wish we had more ppl around with your opinions. Here where I work I am pretty much the only person speaking English and I am not even American.

[dcwusmc]

Big BLOAT bump.

[Phillip Augustus]

Good response. This guy really doesn't get it, though.

One interesting point about Cuban Americans- by and large, excluding the bunch that Castro dumped off on us in the early '80's they ARE European Americans, by way of Cuba from Europe to America. Most are of Spanish descent.

That could be part of why they tend to vote Republican, though obviously the Republican position on Cuba, which I think is becoming outdated, is probably the main reason.

In my view, the only groups of non-European immigrants that we are currently importing with even a CHANCE to go majority Republican are the East Asians- and possibly the Muslim Arabs. In the latter case, I don't think that chance is worth the risk of the potential havoc they may wreak (e.g, 9/11).

[Phillip Augustus]

Bump, see my response to rmlew, since it discussed your previous point as well.

[Classicaliberalconservative]

Well if we go back to a pre-1965 immigration policy like some on this board advocate there will be ethnic quotas. The same quotas that turned boatloads of Jews away and sent many of them to death. I agree we need to shut down immigration to moratorium levels for at least 50 years. However I will never support the hate mongering and race baiting of many restrictionists. Focus on the issue of assimilating immigrants and forget obsessing about the U.S. being swamped by brown people or non Europeans. Why is it "third world immigration" never refers to immigrants from Romania or Belarus? And Taiwan and Singapore are not part of the Western world by these defenders of Western Culture?

[Classicaliberalconservative]

But Ukranians are not a part of Western Culture (If you want to argue this point with me I have read a lot on the history of the region and many in Russia, Belarus, Ukraine and other Eastern Slavic nations do not consider themselves East or West). They would be very hard to assimilate. How can we take 200,000 of them a year? They will undermine the fabric our our Anglo Saxon nation. (SARCASM)

[Classicaliberalconservative]

Buying himself an election. I hate to break it to you but plenty of politicans do that here too directly or indirectly.

[Phillip Augustus]

Surely you jest! Kiev not a Western city? Great scott, man, Kiev is one of the cradles of Western Civilization! Moscow not part of the West? The same Moscow oft called "the Third Rome"? St. Petersburg not part of Western Culture? Russian dance not part? Tolstoy not part? "Crime and Punishment" not?

Russia, Belarus, Ukraine....all are integral parts of Western Civilization.

Now, I was merely speaking hypothetically when I mentioned taking in 200,000 Ukraninan immigrants a year. But they would assimilate better than probably 80% of the immigrants we are currently accepting.

The only nation in Europe, by the way, which is not part of Western Civilization is Albania. Culturally, it is more along a plane with Turkey.

[Phillip Augustus]

Unless you can me wrong, I submit that Romania and Belarus are not Third World. I have always read that they are both "Second World" nations, but again, if you have a credible link to the contrary I will be more than happy to look at it.

Taiwan and Singapore are civilized, successful nations by most standards (though Singapore's barbaric system of justice is hardly "Western" by modern standards, but not part of "Western Civilization", which is has its roots in European Christianity. Having said that, I have no problem with immigration from those two places (and would welcome more of it), yet I wonder why Taiwan and Singapore are not obligated to accept mass Third World immigration, yet American and European nations are.

[Classicaliberalconservative]

But Muscovy was always considered an Asian state by Western Europeans at the time. Moscow is called the "Third Rome" because it was part of the Byzantine Empire. The Byzantine Empire (located in Turkey) was a culture that was a blend of Graeco-Roman and Middle Eastern influences. According to RUSSIAN author Vladmir Baranovsky Byzantine Empire was an increasingly Asian entity. Even the Eastern Orthodox church is not western in many of its practices. In many ways the enlightement skipped Russia and that era was a core element of the modern west. Yes Russia went through periods of Westernization (Peter the Great) but they never succeeded in making the nation entirely European. There has always been a Turkic and Oriental element in Russian/Ukranian culture. In fact Russian dance and music is derived from many Turkic and Central Asian societies. And as far as success in adopting a Western style government, Russia has not been very successful in that department up until now. Even a few years ago the country was a little less than stable. What do you have to say to that?

[Classicaliberalconservative]

Second World refered to nations with command economies. The first, second and third world terminologies were developed during Cold War to describe political alignments. China and Russia were both considered part of the Second World. The third world back than was non aligned nations many of them recently independent colonies that were fought over by the first and second world. Nowadays third world is just used to describe dirt poor nations.