Posted on 07/27/2002 8:06:59 AM PDT by sinkspur
You're right. I have talked about these things quite explicitly with my sons. It's painful, because I would much rather be talking to them exclusively about normal sexuality and development. But they know what they need to know. The Boy Scouts does the same with the teenagers in its troops - where scouts have to watch an explicit movie about the dangers of homosexual molestation. Kids who've been instructed about the dangers of this stuff are in a much better position than those who have not.
...I don't believe the bishops on anything at all...It's unbelievable that I find myself in this position as a parent in Christ's Church. Just unbelievable.
You're speaking volumes here.
I've shared similar incidences as you have with homosexuals. I don't envy you in the slightest.
This will lead, in time, to greater purity and holiness and orthodoxy in the Church, thanks be to God. But parents are not baying for blood. They're baying for a holy and faithful Church.
Yes, this is in fact no worse than any priest who has temptations of any kind...which of course are common to all mankind.
As long as the priest acknowledges the authority of God's Word or church doctrine as the last word on the subject, they are doing all that can be expected.
BUT...in my experience, most of the gay priests are flaming liberals who, aside from being gay, do not believe that such a lifestyle is sinful. Thus, they are playing a dishonest game. They are (even when not practicing) attempting to hide behind tolerance to change church doctrine.
Agreed. These cannot even be called real believers but are subversives within the church. They should be kicked out.
Orthodox Christian parish priests are married (before the ordination). This is the ancient custom (general celibacy was introduced in XII century, soon after the Great Schism) and I think it is worth to be brought back.
I disagree. Temptations to hurt oneself (as in alcohol or drugs or sloth or pridefulness) are different than temptations which physically and spiritually harm young kids, and lead them into sin. Thousands of teenage boys have been horribly and disgustingly harmed. As said the Son of God: "But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."
You are very correct. Only one thing in my opinion would be good is to start to ordain married men. This is the ancient traditional custom preserved in the Eastern Orthodox Church and proven to be beneficial. Parish priests with wives and children tend to be closer to the faithful, give them good example and are too busy for liberal experimentation or fooling around.
There is something beautifully wonderful and holy about a man devoting the entirety of himself to the path of Christ. Some think it is too much to ask. I don't, but I could be wrong.
I disagree. Temptations to hurt oneself (as in alcohol or drugs or sloth or pridefulness) are different than temptations which physically and spiritually harm young kids, and lead them into sin. Thousands of teenage boys have been horribly and disgustingly harmed. As said the Son of God: "But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."
I don't think you understood what I said.
Temptation in itself doesn't "horribly and disgustingly harm" anyone.
It's giving into temptation and committing the sin that is harmful.
And nowhere does the Bible make the kind of warning you cite above for merely being tempted to sin.
The Bible tells us that even Jesus was tempted.
Being tempted is not a sin.
No, you are very right. The point is that the true calling to the celibacy is for the some, many men can be very good husbands, fathers and priests at the same time (and chose celibacy because it is the only way allowed at present). And those who have higher calling can be verified by a bishop and either become priest monks or be celibate priests.
This was the way before the Second Lateran Council in 1139 reform when the Pope Innocent II thought that making celibacy mandatory will raise the level of regular parish to those celibate ones. It did work to some extent then.
Since we deal with a different situation than what was in the feudal time (when the families of priests could try to seize property of the Church) which is more similar to the early Church when the Christians were a minority in a urban and decadent society maybe it is time to restore the ancient usage. To repeat, such restauration should preserve and elevate celibacy/monaticism as a more commited path (like marines compared to the regular soldiers). Bishops still would be recruited from the proven celibate clergy (same way as Eastern Orthodox Church is doing until this day).
You: "You are confused. Probably because most discussions in the media twist this around. They make gayness an innate part of personality, unchangable. "
No confusion here. Being gay is changeable to what is normal - heterosexual. You've been mislead and don't acknowledge God's view on this issue. Here's the website on Exodus that may help you better understand the issue and how God helps those who want to be helped out of this living hell:
http://www.exodusnorthamerica.org/
You can search the site on how Catholics handle this problem. In fact, I highly recomend just reading through the site, especially the testimonies. No one is born with that emotional problem that is later acted out sexually when they are adolescents and awakening sexually. Many tormented homosexuals have turned their life around with the help of Him. I know a former homosexual and it was not easy. Now he is happily married with children. God is blessing him.
Another active homosexual that I know, who is Catholic, has told me that it's okay to be gay as long as you don't act out on it. This is ridiculous. His situation in particular is ludicrous. He lives with his "ex-lover". Yeah right = they don't act on it!. In any event, this is what the Catholic church teaches. If you are a homosexual it's okay but DON'T act out on it. In other words, the person tortures themselves emotionally and is never rid of the affliction.
It now looks like a don't ask don't tell policy where if the priest is gay it's okay as long as they don't get caught molesting anyone. If they do get caught molesting someone, well, that's okay too, they'll pay the victim off and cover for them. Interestingly thought Catholic leaders are very anti abortion, which I could not agree more on, but when it comes to child molestation they cover for the priest and pay off the victim. It is hypocrisy.
You: "Gay means defining one's personality according to one's sexual orientation, and going along with the so called gay lifestyle. "
Me: Oh, come on ... Play the redefiniation game with someone else. Being gay is being a homosexual. Either you are a homosexual or you are not. If you are a homosexual you act on it. Another example - either you are a thief or you are not. If you are a thief you steal things. No one is born as a thief. It is a learned behavior that attempts to compensate for an inadequacy.
It's not a "personality" thing and it's not a "sexual orientiation" thing. NO ONE IS BORN GAY. Read through the Exodus site and clear up your confusion or possibly denial. There is much for you to learn. Stop being an apologist and defining homosexuality down in the name of compassion. By doing this you advocate evil. Homosexuality is evil.
You: "People with sexual temptations who do not act on them are not sinners. "
Me: The problem is that even THINKING about sexual temptations whether it be with someone other than your spouse, same sex attraction etc. is a sin. The person doesn't have to act out on their thoughts. We are all sinners for one reason or another. A verse for you to learn:
Matthew 5:28
You: "Sin is an action, not the temptation. So God indeed does love someone who is tempted and tries to stay pure. "
You apparently diagree with God. ONLY a homosexual with be "tempted" to act out on another. If you are not a homosexual you will not be "tempted". SO the bottom line is the person is a homosexual and a sinner. Homosexality is a sin. I repeat:
Matthew 5:28
[28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
That verse explains how God views temptation. It is not in agreement with your view. The Judeo CHirstian God is so Holy and Perfect that even thinking it is a sin. As the verse states, thinking it or lusting is the same as commiting adultry.
You: "Catholics consider such temptations a personality defect, similar to personality defects toward drinking and drugs and promiscuity. They are probably partly innate, but mainly developmentally defined. They can be cured, but not in all cases. Like alcoholics, they must take one day at a time. "
Me: Catholics are not in agreement with God. His Word views this differently. I repeat:
Matthew 5:28
[28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
That verse explains how God views temptation. It is not in agreement with your view. The Judeo Christian God is so Holy and Perfect that even thinking it is a sin. As the verse states, thinking it or lusting is the same as commiting adultry. If I was to think about tealing my neighbors car; that would be a sin and the same in His eyes as taking what doesn't belong to me. If I am thinking about stealing, I would be a thief.
As for me, I believe it when Jesus says:
Mark.9:23
[23] Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
[24] And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
[25] When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.
[26] And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
[27] But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.
[28] And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?
[29] And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.
Mark.10:27
[27] And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
Mark.14:36
[36] And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
I have yet to see God NOT help someone with sin who does believe in Him and put their fath and trust in Him. He never lets you down. He would NEVER turn His back on one looking to leave the homosexual life. He's eager to save people from eternal damnation however despite His incredible love and grace, He will allow us to turn our backs on Him. He gives us free will to do as we wish.
There is nothing that cannot be cured with God's help. In the case of homoseuxality, alcholism or abuse, God will do cartwheels to help His loved one IF they believe and put their trust/faith in Him. When it comes to whether one lives or dies that is God's call but Christians don't live for this life alone but look forward to eternal life in His presence. There is no way the Judeo Chrsitian God would turn His back on a homosexual earnestly looking to be what He intended for them - a heterosexual life. The website Exodus has many examples of how God helps these people who WANT His help. What you state is not in agreement with God's Word nor does it reflect His incredible love. When one loves another they don't want the loved one to suffer as homosexuals do. Homosexuality is a sadistic lifestyle, emotionally and physically. The God I know, would NEVER keep someone in bondage to that suffering if they wanted to leave it and they believe in Him, and giving Him their trust/faith to help them.
You: "As for God not liking people who are tempted with same sex attraction: ah, if you only knew how wide and deep is the love of God who showed us this love when Jesus died for us."
The Judeo Christian God considers homosexuality an abomination. He goes out of His way to state how this sickens Him. God hates sin and doesn't overlook it as you would like. He doesn't love evil. He despises evil and homsexuality is pure evil. The change of heart must come from the person, not God. Either you believe in Him or you don't. Either you put your faith/trust in Him or you don't.
Lev.20:13
[13] If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Whether it be in the Old Testament or the New, it is not something to think about (be tempted) or acted upon. Either is a sin. If you are "tempted" as you like to put it, then you are a homosexual. I'm not a homosexual so I am not "tempted" to same sex attraction. Only those with the affliction are "tempted". So when you are "tempted" you've already committed a sin according to Matthew 5:28
[27] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
[28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
you might remember Jimmeh Carter and his infamous response to a PlayBoy interview on lust. He brought this verse to life. It is also not a coincidence that you don't hear about a gay women's health crisis. It is ALWAYS the Gay men's health crisis. Men are visual whereas women are not. If heterosexual men could have their way, they'd have a different woman every night. It's just how males operate. The visual aspect is why gay men have a health care crisis and multiple partners. Since they are gay, and visual it's even easier to have multiple partners. It's understood that they don't have to be in love whereas women DO want the emotional aspect of affection for involvement. Female prostitutes typically hate men and only want the money so don't confuse that.
Cross dressing doesn't go over very well either with God:
Deut.22:5
[5] The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
1Kgs.14:24
[24] And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.
The Judeo Christina God makes no bones about it. Homosexuality doesn't go over well with God. Nor would He want a homosexual "tempted" with same sex attraction serving as an ambassador for Him. For whatever reason homosexuality really displease Him to no end. I'm guessing but I suspect His wrath at this unnatural act might be because he created women for men and not men for men or woman for woman. It is a despicable rebellion to what He envisioned as normal and right.
You: Could you direct this newbie to the precise reference in the Cathechism of the Catholic Church, as to where it teaches this?"
You may want to ask LadyDoc to give you the citation. Or look at how she explains it. We are saying the same thing. I have no doubt that when priests have molested children and moved to another parish etc. - these priests were instructed to stop this and remain celibate. Since they don't have God in their life they couldn't and repeated the beahvior. I can't imagine the Catholic church inentionally allowing priests to molest innocent children.
I also know this to be true from a fellow Catholic who is a homosexual. He claims it's in the Cathechism of the Catholic Church. I strongly suggest that if you are a Catholic to review this and other statements in there. I could ask ex_catholics at my church but frankly I see the ulness on you to know what you are supposed to believe; not me.
Me: Catholic dont' believe that through God ALL things are possible. Catholics don't believe that."
You: "Funny, that was the key topic of Fr. Joe's homily last weekend ;o). Seems to be a key thing at my parish."
Me: It is funny when the Catholic church selectively applies this truth.
Me: If you look at the Exodus website that helps gays straighten themselves out, you'll see that it is ONLY the Catholics that find being gay acceptable.
You: I certainly hope you are not basing your feelings on The Church entirely on this ridiculous website. If you are, your comments explain your ignorance about what the church actually teaches.
I'm sorry you find this webiste "ridiculous". I also don't base my opinion on "feelings". I base my opinion on facts. I'm amazed at your ignorance. I bet you haven't even looked at the website. I'd bet you'd find Scripture that contradicts your beliefs ridiculous as well.
You: But like I said, please site for me where in the Cathechism the Church teaches that "it's okay to be gay," I'd be most interested to read it, so I can go to my bishop and tell him where to stick it.
As I state earlier, read LayDoc's reply and you'll see what you're supposed to believe. She can more easily point out the exact page in your Cathechism that you are supposed to abide by. When you have that information so as you see fit. If being gay wan't okay, then why is there tolerance for child molestors? Why are they turned over to law enforcement as other citizens are? Why also did Catholic leaders pay off the victims and just put the priest in another parish if being gay wasn't okay? I'll stop here.
No, I am asking YOU to site it for me. I have the Cathechism of The Catholic Church sitting on my lap, and if you had read SmedleyButler's comment in post #43 to you, there are sites that directly contradict what you claim to "believe" about The Church. You obviously have "what is taught" in the Church confused with what actually goes on. Hypocracy? Hell yes! And we are sick of it!
I have no doubt that when priests have molested children and moved to another parish etc. - these priests were instructed to stop this and remain celibate. Since they don't have God in their life they couldn't and repeated the beahvior. I can't imagine the Catholic church inentionally allowing priests to molest innocent children.
Neither can we, and there are no more angry/hurt people out there than those who have been through it, and their fellow parishoners who are incensed at the heirarchy who allowed these atricities to happen. THAT, my friend, is who "allowed" these crimes to happen, NOT the Church, nor it's doctorine/teachings.
I also know this to be true from a fellow Catholic who is a homosexual. He claims it's in the Cathechism of the Catholic Church. I strongly suggest that if you are a Catholic to review this and other statements in there.
I am Catholic, and had reviewed it long prior to your comments, and after your ridiculous assumptions. Your buddy is one of those misguided Catholics who is dead wrong about it being okay for priests being gay. That fact has been pointed out and sited above in the Cathechism to you already and I won't go into it again. Is it okay for him to be gay? Of course not, he's a sinner like the rest of us. Does it hurt God? You better believe it. However, God shows love and compassion to everyone. God will deal with your friend, and those who are like him. It's up to us to keep our own noses clean. And reach out to him and those like your friend, as if God would. It's best that we follow that rule. We don't usually agree or approve of the sin(ner), but that's our human state. It's up to Him as to what will happen to those like your friend. God will reach out, only if your buddy will reach back in his heart. That's why God is in charge, but some people tend forget that (including the "overly righteous", the pervert priests, and those who hide them).
I could ask ex_catholics at my church but frankly I see the ulness on you to know what you are supposed to believe; not me.
No, I suggest you stop relying on second hand fables and stories to get your so called "facts". Look up the Catechism yourself, and you will see for yourself what is doctorine. What happens, unfortunately, is another matter with a select few of the heirarchy. And we as Catholics are beyond angry.
Me: It is funny when the Catholic church selectively applies this truth.
Personally I don't think it's funny, neither to hundreds of thousands of Catholics in this country. Listen, I am not alone when I say we as Catholics are sickened as to what has been happening with the Church. It has been infected with such vile evil, but it will survive. It has survived scandal and screw ups for two millenia, and will continue to do so, by The Grace of God.
I'm sorry you find this webiste "ridiculous". I also don't base my opinion on "feelings".
No, you base it on heresay, and you've proved your own igonrance as trying to state your opinions as "facts", based on what you hear. I base my opinion on what is taught on the Church by reading The Catechism, and The Bible.
I'm amazed at your ignorance.
You shouldn't be. If you read carefully, I prefaced my comment to you with a disclaimer as me being "a newbie". I did not grow up in The Church. You, however, come off touting yourself as "a pro" on Catholic Doctorine. I find that "funny" being that you don't follow Catholic teachings, nor are you such. (please correct my "ignorance" again if I made a mistake here).
I bet you haven't even looked at the website. I'd bet you'd find Scripture that contradicts your beliefs ridiculous as well.
We all know the Bible is full of contradictions. I follow God's rules, or try to at best. Thank Him that he allows for screw ups from all of us.
As I state earlier, read LayDoc's reply and you'll see what you're supposed to believe. She can more easily point out the exact page in your Cathechism that you are supposed to abide by. When you have that information so as you see fit. If being gay wan't okay, then why is there tolerance for child molestors? Why are they turned over to law enforcement as other citizens are? Why also did Catholic leaders pay off the victims and just put the priest in another parish if being gay wasn't okay? I'll stop here.
Thank you! Because the Cathachism doesn't say it! It is NOT okay for a priest to be gay! Where are you getting this ridiculous idea that it is okay for a priest to be gay? Just because some slimy bishops are covering for these perverts so "they won't look bad" you consider this doctorine and "teachings" of the Church?? Try again. You are very confused on the issue....No teaching in the Catachism/Catholic Doctorine says that it 's okay for a priest to be gay. Nor, is it "okay" to sin via homosexuality, whether you are a priest or not. We have SICK people in our Church (as you most likely do in yours....it's not in the eye of the media at the moment), and they need to be purged out. And it WILL happen.
My mistake, I did check out exodusnorthamerica.org, I was confusing it with another website, that is a Catholic apologetic for homosexuality, so don't hit. Those people seeking to change, show a lot of courage, but will do just fine, because like I said, "God's in charge."
There was that study in the New York Times (surprise!) a few months ago in which many homosexual men (more than 50% of those participating) were seen to have completely and truly reverted to heterosexuality through psychiatric therapy. It was noted that the vast majority of such men were highly motivated and had strong religious beliefs.
There was that study in the New York Times (surprise!) a few months ago in which many homosexual men (more than 50% of those participating) were seen to have completely and truly reverted to heterosexuality through psychiatric therapy. It was noted that the vast majority of such men were highly motivated and had strong religious beliefs.
I agree, Jorge. I meant to say that such temptations frequently lead to sin. By putting a lot of men who are tempted (in a disordered way) toward homosexual sex together almost inevitably leads to sin. Same when they're put near teenage boys. And I would say that Christ does require us to clean up our thoughts - as in when he says that anyone who looks at a woman with lust in his heart has already committed adultery with her (and thus sinned). Temptations are not sin, I agree. But allowing bad thoughts to prevail in our minds is.
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