Posted on 07/27/2002 8:06:59 AM PDT by sinkspur
I agree
He would NEVER turn His back on one looking to leave the homosexual life.
Right.
There is nothing that cannot be cured with God's help. True. But a lot of people aren't cured. This is called the problem of evil. People remain with the bodily and psychological weaknesses even after seeking God, and even being born again.
When God cures, it's a miracle. But sometimes he leaves a "thorn in the flesh" to keep people humble. That is where God's mercy comes into play. You assume when one is saved, one never sins or is tempted to sin. Alas, this is not so. You assume God cures, but alas he often does not cure physical or psychological illnesses. Paul calls such things a "thorn in the flesh". Catholics call them "crosses". Temptations that are resisted are not sins, but weapons of the devil to make one sin, which can be resisted with grace.
Indeed, the paradox is that many who are "saved", instead of praising God for his mercy and preaching his mercy to other sinners, instead too often are willing to condemn the sins of others who are not "saved". You can quote scripture out of context all day but anyone reading Isaiah or Micah knows that there are lots of sins beside homosexual behavior out there. And anyone reading Matthew knows that God's approach is not to blast the sinner as hopeless, but to seek the lost sheep in the brambles to take him home.
True, it doesn't make any sense to create a situation that we know will lead to temptation.
Unless of course we want trouble.
And I would say that Christ does require us to clean up our thoughts - as in when he says that anyone who looks at a woman with lust in his heart has already committed adultery with her (and thus sinned). Temptations are not sin, I agree. But allowing bad thoughts to prevail in our minds is.
Yes, I agree. When we dwell on a temptation and play with it in our mind, we are in effect giving our approval to and embracing something we know is wrong.
This goes beyond simply being temptation and becomes sin, which is of course what Christ was saying in the verse you cite.
Good point.
"This is different than, say an alcholic being put in charge of a liquor store."
One difference also is the alcoholic is not asking that the Church bless his drinking habit with a rite. Let's say that he demands that he bring is booze into church and have a blessing and the congregation glories with him in his addiction/habit.
Gays have been very successful in the protestant world gaining "same-sex blessings" where the couples get a cermony known as gay marriage.
A short internet search on "open and affirming" congregations yields me 100 or more churches in my area that accept the gay life-style and AFFIRM it. Open and affirming is the next step -- heads up guys -- let's not fall for this one.
There is the key, motivation. I think it is a disorder, like alcoholism. You have to want to beat it. It makes my heart so glad that these good men were helped through therapy, or whatever means, to rediscover what deeper joy it is to experience their sexuality in the way God intended for them. I pray that many more will follow.
You remeind me, YB, that I *must* pick up "Goodbye, Good Men" very soon. I've been wanting to read it since it came out.
Have a wonderful and Blessed Sunday ;o)
I assume no such thing. Even after being saved we will still still. All mere mortals are fallible and sin. God does cure and that is not an assumption. That is Biblically sound. YOu will have to give me the verse that Paul states so I can check the context. I don't want to assume anything on your behalf. Temptation resisted or not ARE sins. THIS is what God says.
[28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
That verse explains how God views temptation. It is not in agreement with your view. The Judeo CHristian God is so Holy and Perfect that even thinking it is a sin. As the verse states, thinking it or lusting is the same as commiting adultry and that is a sin.
I suppose you didn't go throught the website Exodus. There is ample evidence of God's infinite love and mercy to those who want to leave the tormented homosexual life. Look at the testimonies. Look at who they credit. It is true through God all things are possible and certainly a homosexual life is NOT something God, would want anyone to experience, let alone live.
I believe Jesus when He states this:
Mark.9:23
[23] Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
Mark.10:27
[27] And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
Mark.14:36
[36] And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
I also can't help but notice that you don't use Scripture to back up your beliefs and that is because it is not in agreement with God's Word. Instead you try to split hairs and redefine to support a more humanitic view of God's Word.
My focus is not on an opinion of mere mortals. It is what God says that is important. We are under grace for our punishment. AS you know also Christ died on the cross for our puishment. The wages of sin is death and that includes temptation acted upon or not is sin.
You: "Indeed, the paradox is that many who are "saved", instead of praising God for his mercy and preaching his mercy to other sinners, instead too often are willing to condemn the sins of others who are not "saved". You can quote scripture out of context all day but anyone reading Isaiah or Micah knows that there are lots of sins beside homosexual behavior out there.
Me: Just a reminder ... we are having a discussion on homosexuality and how God IS merciful to them if they put their faith/trust in Him they won;t have to be tormented with this emotional problem. I don't quote Scripture out of context and you know it. Anyone who reads the Bible knows that homosexuality isn't the only sin out there. Good grief! That is obvious and tends to cause topic drift. We are discssing homosexuality and how this sin in particular was singled out by God, not me, as particulary offensive. We could easily veer off out discussion and discuss other sins, such as divorce outside of what God permits etc. but I'm not interested in getting off topic. The topic here is homoseuxality as a sin, "tempted or acted on". When one is tempted the person has the affliction of being a homosexual which is a sin. I don't kniow why this is so confusing to you.
You: "And anyone reading Matthew knows that God's approach is not to blast the sinner as hopeless, but to seek the lost sheep in the brambles to take him home."
Again, anyone that reads the Bible, not just Isaiah, Micah or Matthew KNOW that there is ALL kinds of sin out there! God's approach is not to minimize sin and make up excuses for it. If anything is it God who DOES blast the sinner in no uncertain terms about sin. It is Jesus who speaks the most about hell. Hell is so awful that He talks about it to make an impression. It's sweet to give the lost sheep story but the fact is that too many "lost sheep" don't get "blasted" or rebuked enough to turn away from sin. Too many are compromising sin down so as to not hurt feelings and to be more at ease with worldy views. This is wrong and a mistake. I'd rather see people go to heaven than hell. I hope you reconsider your beliefs.
I don't subnscribe to the NYT and surprised they would publish truth for a change. Thanks for posting it.
You: No, I am asking YOU to site it for me. I have the Cathechism of The Catholic Church sitting on my lap, and if you had read SmedleyButler's comment in post #43 to you, there are sites that directly contradict what you claim to "believe" about The Church. You obviously have "what is taught" in the Church confused with what actually goes on. Hypocracy? Hell yes! And we are sick of it!
Me: I don't have the time to look it up nor am I interested in citing for you what you are supposed to believe.
Me: I have no doubt that when priests have molested children and moved to another parish etc. - these priests were instructed to stop this and remain celibate. Since they don't have God in their life they couldn't and repeated the beahvior. I can't imagine the Catholic church inentionally allowing priests to molest innocent children.
You: Neither can we, and there are no more angry/hurt people out there than those who have been through it, and their fellow parishoners who are incensed at the heirarchy who allowed these atricities to happen. THAT, my friend, is who "allowed" these crimes to happen, NOT the Church, nor it's doctorine/teachings.
Me:The "church" is the body of believers. It is not an organization or an institution. It's teachings are what has permitted this.
Me: I also know this to be true from a fellow Catholic who is a homosexual. He claims it's in the Cathechism of the Catholic Church. I strongly suggest that if you are a Catholic to review this and other statements in there.
You: I am Catholic, and had reviewed it long prior to your comments, and after your ridiculous assumptions. Your buddy is one of those misguided Catholics who is dead wrong about it being okay for priests being gay. That fact has been pointed out and sited above in the Cathechism to you already and I won't go into it again. Is it okay for him to be gay? Of course not, he's a sinner like the rest of us. Does it hurt God? You better believe it. However, God shows love and compassion to everyone. God will deal with your friend, and those who are like him. It's up to us to keep our own noses clean. And reach out to him and those like your friend, as if God would. It's best that we follow that rule. We don't usually agree or approve of the sin(ner), but that's our human state. It's up to Him as to what will happen to those like your friend. God will reach out, only if your buddy will reach back in his heart. That's why God is in charge, but some people tend forget that (including the "overly righteous", the pervert priests, and those who hide them).
Me: I make no assumptions. I go by what Catholic say. Most of my church is ex-Catholic. It's up to thte individual to reach out to God. If the individual doesn't he/she will be forever tormented. This is the last thing God wants for any of His loved ones. He loves us all wishes that "noen should perish".
Me: I could ask ex_catholics at my church but frankly I see the ulness on you to know what you are supposed to believe; not me.
You: No, I suggest you stop relying on second hand fables and stories to get your so called "facts". Look up the Catechism yourself, and you will see for yourself what is doctorine. What happens, unfortunately, is another matter with a select few of the heirarchy. And we as Catholics are beyond angry.
Me: They are not fables or stories but what is taught by the Catholic church. I have no interest in Catholic Catechism since the Bible supercedes the word of man. I stay close to God'w Word. I hope you are angry enough to stop this. It's not right to hurt these tender young ones in this way.
Me: It is funny when the Catholic church selectively applies this truth.
You: Personally I don't think it's funny, neither to hundreds of thousands of Catholics in this country. Listen, I am not alone when I say we as Catholics are sickened as to what has been happening with the Church. It has been infected with such vile evil, but it will survive. It has survived scandal and screw ups for two millenia, and will continue to do so, by The Grace of God.
Then by golly - HOLD THEIR FEET TO THE FIRE and make them stop this. YOU can make more of a difference than me. You are a Catholic.
Me: I'm sorry you find this webiste "ridiculous". I also don't base my opinion on "feelings".
You: No, you base it on heresay, and you've proved your own igonrance as trying to state your opinions as "facts", based on what you hear. I base my opinion on what is taught on the Church by reading The Catechism, and The Bible.
I repeat, I base my opinons on facts. Of course you won't read the website I referred you to because you don't want to see Catholicism state what you don't like. Your best bet is to take what the Bible says to heart. Because of our inherent imperfection man's words are not reliable. It is God's Word that is reliable.
Again, here is a website that would help you with homosexuality and on there is what Catholic teach:
http://www.exodusnorthamerica.org/
I'm amazed at your ignorance.
You: You shouldn't be. If you read carefully, I prefaced my comment to you with a disclaimer as me being "a newbie". I did not grow up in The Church. You, however, come off touting yourself as "a pro" on Catholic Doctorine. I find that "funny" being that you don't follow Catholic teachings, nor are you such. (please correct my "ignorance" again if I made a mistake here).
Me: Your impression of me is extreme and so is your commentary. Your sarcasm is also disturbing. I'm not amused by you. Instead I feel sorry for you.
Me: I bet you haven't even looked at the website. I'd bet you'd find Scripture that contradicts your beliefs ridiculous as well.
You: We all know the Bible is full of contradictions. I follow God's rules, or try to at best. Thank Him that he allows for screw ups from all of us.
No, we "don't all know the Bible is full of contradictions". This is not true nor do Christians believe this. Perfection, God is not illogical or a liar. Your statement just called Him a liar. God gives us free will. If we screw-up it is because our will was endorsed over His will. God allows us to accept Him or reject Him. Don't blame our screw-ups on God. It is the person that screwed up not God.
Me: As I state earlier, read LayDoc's reply and you'll see what you're supposed to believe. She can more easily point out the exact page in your Cathechism that you are supposed to abide by. When you have that information so as you see fit. If being gay wan't okay, then why is there tolerance for child molestors? Why are they turned over to law enforcement as other citizens are? Why also did Catholic leaders pay off the victims and just put the priest in another parish if being gay wasn't okay? I'll stop here.
You:Thank you! Because the Cathachism doesn't say it! It is NOT okay for a priest to be gay! Where are you getting this ridiculous idea that it is okay for a priest to be gay? Just because some slimy bishops are covering for these perverts so "they won't look bad" you consider this doctorine and "teachings" of the Church?? Try again. You are very confused on the issue....No teaching in the Catachism/Catholic Doctorine says that it 's okay for a priest to be gay. Nor, is it "okay" to sin via homosexuality, whether you are a priest or not. We have SICK people in our Church (as you most likely do in yours....it's not in the eye of the media at the moment), and they need to be purged out. And it WILL happen.
Honestly, I'm not interested in what Cathachism says about anything and nor should you be concerned. You should be focused on the Bible. If it weren't okay for a Priest to be gay, then WHY pray tell did the leaders not only cover up the crime, pay off hte family but move the priest to another parish to commit the same offense? You can only hope they asked the priest to stop but when you have MULTIPLE instances and MULTIPLE payoffs, and MULITPLE cover-up, it leads me to believe that the church may not necessarily believe that being gay is so wrong. When you are gay, you act on it. If you don't act on it you are not gay. It's really that simple. Yes, they, homoseuxals can be turned around to a heterosexual life. I'm curious as to WHY these priest, in a Catholic church, surrounded by other Catholic and higher ups who KNEW what was going on ... didn't take this burden to Jesus and help the priest turn his life around. Could it be that God is not in them? Hence, WHY the priest wasn't tunred around? Maybe it's just nice to say to turn to Jesus and lay your burden on Him but when it comes to REALLY doing that, they don't really beleive it? I suspect so since Jesus doesn' t turn His back on anyone. Read that website and you will see how Jesus helped these folks have a happy normal life as He intended.
You: My mistake, I did check out exodusnorthamerica.org, I was confusing it with another website, that is a Catholic apologetic for homosexuality, so don't hit. Those people seeking to change, show a lot of courage, but will do just fine, because like I said, "God's in charge."
These folks who turn away from homosexuality are indeed COURAGEOUS! It is such a horrible affliction. It takes time, patience and digging into their growing up to see how the problem manifested inself and then with love help undo that damage. God is in charge and it is us mere mortals to reach out to Him. He's done all He can. Jesus died for us so we wouldn't have to be dammed - the wages of sin is death but something is xpected from us - belief and putting your faith/trust in Him. He will not fail you whether it be for homoseuxality or another problem. He loves you.
So save the bandwith, and stop arguing about something you obviously know nothing about. You and I have a lot we agree with, but arrogant shouting gets us no where. We as a Church ARE doing something about this scandal, and are "holding the feet to the fire" as we speak. If you took interest in it, you'd know it.
Now, go have a nice Sunday, and go educate yourself, before you continue to make a fool out of yourself by telling me what exactly I should believe as a Catholic. Been there, done that. And do yourself a favor and learn html ;o)
yawn.
As far as I know gays have had very limited success gaining approval for same sex relations, let alone marriage in protestant churches.
There are actually only a handful of fringe denominations that accept such things.
The vast majority of protestants reject the idea of gay marriage.
As far as I know gays have had very limited success gaining approval for same sex relations, let alone marriage in protestant churches.
I guess this is what the definition of approval is. It appears to me the protestants are giving their approval to gay relationships.
The Anglican Church in Canada has just had a diocese approve a rite for gay blessings. This will no doubt split the whole Anglican Communion because the African and Asians are very conservative.
A search of "Open and Affirming" churches in my area yields nearly 100 churches who adhere to this doctrine of accepting gays as they are. My own visits to some of these churches has shown me they very, very accepting. I've seen that gays have their anniversaries announced along with birthdays and marriage anniversaries. In the San Francisco area where I live there are many openly gay minsters in all churches.
Evangelicals and traditionalists in the Church of England and across the Anglican Communion are to urgently seek talks with the new Archbishop of Canterbury warning that if he does not change his mind on homosexuality he could split the Communion.
The first reaction to Dr Williams' appointment came from the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement, which enthusiastically welcomed it as a change in the policy of the Church.
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