The risks of cohabitation

Minneapolis Star Tribune ^ | 7/17/02 | Katherine Kersten

[Nachum]

I have a first cousin who is the "Men's rights attorney". He is nationally recognized for defending men in divorces. Therefore I have heard quite a bit about men who "taken to the cleaners" in divorces. I think that these facts of co-habitation speak largely to the idea that America has become a much more secular country. There is no shame in having children out of wedlock anymore, there is no more shame in divorce (except for the cost), and their is no shame in co-habitation. If you have a true belief in God, than marriage is essential. If you do not have that belief, than reason your mind can dream of is OK for male-female relations.

By the way, not just male-female, but homosexual unions, and multiple partners become more "normal" as well.

[Don Myers]

bttt

[Physicist]

I cohabitated with Mrs. P. for a couple of years before we were married. In retrospect, it was foolish. We should have been married right away. I knew I wanted to marry her well before we ever moved in together, and she felt the same way. If we didn't know that, we had no business shacking up together in any case. But since there was no way either of us would ever have let the other go, there really was no reason not to get married. (Also in retrospect, and on the other hand, there was no harm done; kids didn't come along until after years of trying in any case.)

[Sangamon Kid]

You may just be doing your child a disservice by taking the moral highground and "towing the party line" on life while not taking into account our own biology and how humans interact with each other in the real world. Let's face it, we all have issues with sexuality, intimacy, and relationships during the transition from adolescence to adulthood, and sometimes even after maturity.

What a bunch of crap. How, pray tell, is taking the moral high ground ever a disservice to my daughter? And please explain to me why all of a sudden human beings are no longer capable of exercising self control over their bodily functions. And please don't the cloud the distinction between affection and sexual gratification. If you understand what the scriptures say, then you should readily believe that God gives us the ability to "put to death" the desires of the flesh by exercising self-control. Do you realize that the Bible also talks about a husband's body not belonging to him, but belongs to his wife. And likewise, the women's body is not her own, but belongs to her husband. Sort of leaves very little room for the kind of self-gratification being exercised by both the married and unmarried.

Your daughter may be into her mid to late 20s before she starts learning some of life's toughest lessons. She will be at such a disadvantage compared to the majority of people who don't hold pre-marital sex or co-habitation in such contempt...it may even ruin a good marriage or relationship in her future.

Moral relativism pure and simple. So, life's toughest lessons have to be learned the hard way? "Good news, Daddy!! I just learned one of life's hardest lessons!...But the bad news is that I'm six months pregnant, and I'm not exactly sure who the father is." What disadvantage are you suggesting she might have...not knowing all the positions of the Kama Sutra?

Besides that, physical intimacy is a tremendously important part in any normal relationship and sometimes two people just don't click. Who wants to sign a 50 year lease on a car without test driving it at least once?

The siren song of "Just Do It" me-me-me generation living is getting old.

Let me ask you this, when you and your daughter discuss sex, do you portray it as some kind of dirty necessity or do you describe it as an expression of love and affection between two people? The devil is always in the details.

When a man and woman live to please one another and not themselves, how can it be a dirty necessity?

As far as marriage goes, let me pose another question? Let's take two different couples for an example, neither couple with any children to legitimize. Both couples love, honor, and respect each other in a committed monogamous relationship. One couple has a piece of paper from the state that says they are married, one does not. Which pair is more favored by God? Does God care anymore for the couple endorsed by a local government?

I'll make it a worse case scenario. Did Adam and Eve have a piece of paper? Probably not, but they had approval and a witness to their union, which is probably why cultures throughout history valued marriage ceremonies. The scripture says that by the word of 2 or 3 witnesses let every fact be confirmed. I've never seen a ceremony for shacking up, have you?

[proudwoman]

This is the first time I have ever posted on a message board but I felt I had to stand up for women. I normally enjoy Free Republic but I am getting disgusted at the woman-bashing on this site, especially by SamAdams76. A woman posted her honest account of how bad she was treated in her
two marriages and SamAdams posted a hostile reply. I have noticed that when a woman says something remotely negative about men SamAdams replies with a childish remark of "feminazi" or something equally ridiculous.

I am so disgusted with the "Men" on this topic. They think that Men are SO Innocent and kind and are never guilty in a divorce. Let me tell you something. There are some bad Women out there but there are also PLENTY of bad Men. When I was 15 years old my Mother, my Sister, and I lost everything we had because of a Man. I vowed then never to trust a Man or let one take advantage of me like my Mother had. I would NEVER get married. I think it is best to live with someone without marriage. There are too many risks for a woman. Most Men are out for number one and don't care about anyone else.

There, I have got it out of my system. Flame away, boys.

[Skwidd]

Try dating without having sex, you don't get so confused about behavioral problems.

I never have hopped into the sack with whatever happened to be available that night. However, dating is an artificial environment--you don't see a real person when you meet for 'chocolate malts and a picture show.'

If I'm going to make a commitment for life, I want to know who I am making it with and what exactly I am getting into. I want to see how she handles real-life problems like leaky sinks and car breakdowns and what happens if she sees me with a woman she doesn't know. I want to know if she has strange obsessions, bitter hates, or problems with my personal habits or likes and dislikes.

I think we can all agree that people are not always who they say they are. It's easy to fake being someone else for a few hours. Co-habitation forces the honesty you can't get during dating.

As far as the sex thing goes--sorry, the 40s are over. If a woman doesn't put out, another woman will.

[SamAdams76]

Well you misinterpreted my reply. When I said "I rest my case," I was referring to my earlier point that so many marriages make a mess out of people's lives. Especially men. When this woman (who I don't know from Adam) pointed out that her two ex's were washing dishes or on welfare, one of which is a Phd, it illustrated my earlier point perfectly. Obviously this woman had it tough too. But I speak for the men because I can relate to them better and they usually get the short end of the stick. I got horror stories that will make this woman's life look like a picnic. How about spending a weekend in jail and being labeled a wife-beater because you slammed a door in anger? This happened to a friend of mine not too long ago and that wasn't the worst of it. He hasn't seen his kids in months except by "supervised" visits monitored by social workers.

You are just upset because the men aren't just rolling over and taking it anymore.

[FreedomFriend]

You're raising your daughter appropriately. You're right, moral relativism is definitely wrong, and it has effected society to such an extreme. Your daughter will not be at a disadvantage, but at an advantage, for why would she want to give herself to someone who is promiscuous?

As a 25 year old, Bible believing male, I can assure you, there are plenty of guys out there who do not believe like many of the responses here.

[FreedomFriend]

As far as the sex thing goes--sorry, the 40s are over. If a woman doesn't put out, another woman will.

Talk about a lame, pathetic response. Your view of life appears to be a sexual one. Marriage is not about sex. It is about spending the life with someone you love. It's about learning new things, learning from mistakes, etc. Your talk of cohabitation is inherently flawed, because it takes out the mystery of marriage, not to mention overshadows the true feelings of courtship and dating by allowing oneself to get wrapped up in lust. I'm sorry, but you know that cohabitation places an individual in a temptacious setting, and pre-marital sex is one of the main reasons for divorce.

If cohabitation is so great, why do a strong majority of individuals who cohabitate end up getting divorced? On the other hand, why do a minority of individuals who do not cohabitate, nor have premarital relations, get divorced?

[WIMom]

Ya know, I'm a perfect candidate for hating men. My husband left me for his true love when my girls were 4, 7 and 8. I could wallow in self pity, as you seem to be doing, or I could make something of myself. Guess what? I wallowed for about 2 weeks, brushed myself off, checked into the university and enrolled in the engineering program. And you know what? I'm so glad my husband left me. It's really the best thing that could have happened. I have confidence, I'm not a 'mousy woman' talking about what a fabulous career my husband has to all my girl friends, and I like myself. I met a fabulous man, we've been together for 8 years, and he's been a better dad to my girls than their father. Now, My kids are grown, I'm a corporate exec, with an MBA and playing with the big boys and I'm doing a damn good job too. So, lose the attitude, it won't help you in the big picture. I'm not trying to rip on you, you need to realize women aren't dependant on men, they just make our lives nicer, sweeter, and just all around happier.

PS. my ex is on his fourth marriage.

[Pistias]

And this differs from marriage exactly how?

No oath is broken in leaving a living together arrangement. In certain "progressive" marriages, that may also be true, of course, but marriage is supposed to have a bit more to it than that.

[RaceBannon]

1 Corinthians 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?(NOTE: This is only true if you are a True Christian)
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

[Age of Reason]

Today, young people increasingly think of cohabitation as a "no strings attached" way to assess the compatibility of a potential mate.

That has always been a great test.

If a woman moves in with a guy, she's disqualified herself for marriage.

Next.

[SandfleaCSC]

And please don't the cloud the distinction between affection and sexual gratification.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how draconian. For rest of us in mature, healthy relationships those two things do go hand in hand. You seem to fall all over yourself to separate sex and love when its not really necessary.

Do you realize that the Bible also talks about a husband's body not belonging to him, but belongs to his wife. And likewise, the women's body is not her own, but belongs to her husband.

Here you stumble again. I am familiar with the passage as it is written in the Torah. The King James version loses a little something in the translation. A husband's life belongs not to him, but resides within his wife. I'd be glad to quote the passage for you, but my keyboard speaks poor Hebrew.

Moral relativism pure and simple. So, life's toughest lessons have to be learned the hard way? "Good news, Daddy!! I just learned one of life's hardest lessons!...But the bad news is that I'm six months pregnant, and I'm not exactly sure who the father is."

Hmmm...sounds more like a responsibility issue now than a moral one. It's not anyone's job but your own to educate your child about safe sex, monagamy, and accountability. Sounds like you're not so sure you've been up to the task. One thing its so hard to get "holier than thous" to understand is that sex outside of marriage isn't always solely about promiscuity and self-indulgence. A marriage certificate is no guarantee against those either...as always it comes down to how two people feel about each other and how they respect each other.

When a man and woman live to please one another and not themselves, how can it be a dirty necessity?

Bingo. I knew you'd come around eventually.

I'll make it a worse case scenario. Did Adam and Eve have a piece of paper? Probably not, but they had approval and a witness to their union, which is probably why cultures throughout history valued marriage ceremonies. The scripture says that by the word of 2 or 3 witnesses let every fact be confirmed. I've never seen a ceremony for shacking up, have you?

Nope, no shaking up ceremonies unless you count the cookout you have to throw all your friends for helping you move the woman and her mountain of junk in. I have however, thanks to work, been in attendance at two gay weddings given by accredited Christian churches. You may call my personal relationship with God "moral relativism" but I'll take my version over either one of the pastors who performed the gay weddings anyday.

[proudwoman]

Good for you. You sound like a strong, intelligent woman.
I don't have an attitude, I just refuse to be anyone's doormat. There is nothing wrong with companionship, you just have to watch out for yourself because no one else will. I just had that lesson reinforced a couple of days ago when I was betrayed by someone that I love dearly.
I was angry that several people on this thread blamed everything on Women. I am NOT wallowing in self-pity. I just decided to start standing up for myself. Just what is wrong with that?

[Sangamon Kid]

One thing its so hard to get "holier than thous" to understand is that sex outside of marriage isn't always solely about promiscuity and self-indulgence.

Enlighten me.

...but I'll take my version over either one of the pastors who performed the gay weddings anyday.

Wait a minute now, I'm not allowed to be "holier than thou" when I question your morality, but it's OK for you to be holier than either one of the pastors in question? You're still playing the relativity game.

[proudwoman]

No, I am not upset that Men aren't taking it anymore. Everyone should stand up for their rights. I just wanted to state that there are plenty of Women that have been used and betrayed by Men.

[WIMom]

Nothing is wrong with standing up for yourself. But you have to realize, most conservative men love women. Especially the hunks on this forum. (I got points for that one) Some can be 'Neanderthal' in their opinions, but that's ok too. Just like we sometimes can be emotional, they're struggling worse than we are with the feminazi's. Think about it. Should they bring flowers, should they hold the door open, should they take your hand, should they compliment you on your outfit at work or your appearance, should they tell a joke? The list is endless; they're dammed if they do and damned if they don't. We just need to realize they are men, and it's their nature to act differently than we do. Once we realize there isn't malicious harm, it's kind of enduring.

[SamAdams76]

I'm sure there are and I'm not disputing that. I'm also not attacking you for sticking up for your fellow women. Why then do you find it so offensive that men will stick up for themselves? It's not "women-bashing" to defend men's rights any more than it is "men-bashing" to speak up for women's rights.

[SevenDaysInMay]

the bond of marriage = the bond'age