[JohnHuang2]

Wednesday, July 17, 2002

Quote of the Day posted by Alias Sandman

[goldstategop]

We don't like rats. That's true whether its the Rat party or whether its the Bush Administration that wants to turn Americans into some. Our forebears escaped oppression and tyranny to come to a land of freedom and opportunity. God forbid we should fail to heed their experience and turn our beloved country into a police state like the ones they escaped with their lives from.

[CWRWinger]

At least 4 percent of Americans would participate in TIPS, under the government's plan.

The selection of these rats, IMO, may be similar to that of a jury. The selection may be designed so as to eliminate fair minded analytical types who don't 'feel' their way through a situation.

The profile of these individuals may be of an individual who is absorbed with class envy, does not believe in absolutes and looks to government for redistribution of wealth.

[Caipirabob]

All the smarmy idiot kids we were compelled to beat the tar out of in high school will now have an outlet sanctioned by the Federal government. I'm interested in reading the first "casualty" report and how the government responds to it. Being a law abiding citizen my first compulsion to someone who was apparently spending too much time observing myself or my children would shortly find themselves "extremely inconvenienced".

In this day and age of stalkers, child molesters and overall idiots, the last thing we need is government sanctioned citizen spys. Patriotic American citizen will willingly fill this roll without the government's idiotic efforts.

[WyldKard]

Where are all the pro-Government RINO's telling us everything is okay, and TIPS is no worse than the Neighborhood Watch program?

The Government should serve and be distrusted by the people, not the other way around.

[SamBees]

We don't trust our government, no matter which party is in power.

I would love to be able to trust our government, but Ronald Reagan is ill. Everyday when I read the newspapers, we are losing freedom here and there, and some over here.

My fellow Americans, please please don't let our country go t Hell. Please don't allow world government to dictate to us. Please reject socialism/communism no matter the party that is pushing it.

Please protect our Constitution and Bill of Rights.

The threats to our future are not as great from those outside the US as they are from those inside, and in, or would be in postions of power, I believe.

[mo]

Unfortunately the types of freedoms required for successful business-the freedoms that made America the worlds business leader-are now gone with passage of the Patriot Act. If W really intends to re-ignite the economy he will need to formally address this problem.

[grebu]

Don't be fooled by hysteria. First understand the wording of the 4th amendment, especially that carefully placed word "unreasonable" - something that is to be flexibly interpreted depending upon the circumstances. For example, breaking down the door to an apartment, without warrant or cause, looking for "terrorism": unreasonable. Breaking down the door to an apartment, even without warrant, but having credible evidence that a nuclear device set to go off in 10 minutes is within the apartment: reasonable.

Thing is, this TIPS program is really nothing more than a national Neighborhood Watch program. "Call a toll-free number and be connected directly to a hotline routing calls to the proper law enforcement agency"? Big deal! I can do that now without TIPS. I just opened up my phone book to the 'blue pages' and found listings for the FBI, ATF, IRS, Coast Guard and scores of other federal entities. I can place a call with any one of them, depending upon the circumstances, and drop a tip about something "suspicious". I could tell the FBI, for example, that I have reason to believe that I know where a missing child is. So, you see, lost in the initial ACLU hysteria over TIPS is the fact that these types of things already exist and our rights are still quite fine, thank you very much.

I've heard on talk radio some civil libertarians worry that a cable television guy could walk in to your apartment, find some "illegal" or "suspicious" material and supposedly break your 4th amendment rights by contacting the Feds who would then harass you. But, again, remember what the amendment says about process, and remember the word "unreasonable." TIPS doesn't say that due process will be overturned.

Let's say I'm a cable repairman and I find during routine service something "illegal" - maybe pictures of children having sex, and children I know that live in your neighborhood. With or without TIPS I can call authorities. Those authorities could place you under surveillance or come and question you. If they want to search your apartment they can go to a judge, get a warrant and do so because they have a probable cause - me, who reported your dirtbag, sicko social life. Let's say I find a bomb, or even if I find nothing, and call in a tip saying you're up to some kind of "terrorism." In either case you still have your rights, and the Feds still have to go through standard police procedures (due process) to investigate. Just because the FEDs get a tip doesn't mean that they're going to come blasting through doors. And, should something be so eminently and highly dangerous it requires action right this second (the nuke, for example), our wise founding fathers inserted the word "unreasonable."

What's really bad is even though the system hasn’t even begun, and we don't have all the details, yet critics are already making ridiculous comparisons. Some are going so far as making comparisons to the East German Stasi (secret police). The big difference being TIPS (or no TIPS) East Germany was a communist country with no freedom and laws to support that lack of freedom. So you can tip all you want in this country but if nothing illegal is happening, well, nothing is going to happen. You'll still have your due process, etc. Not so in East Germany 1960s.

[Gatún(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)]

I can only hope America wakes up to realize how dangerous this is. I live in a country that had its neighborhood watch snitches. Those who will volunteer for this filthy job are the slime bag cowards who need to feel important and will do anything towards that end. Wake up America.

[madfly]

ping

[Khepera]

So when you guys see some suspicious actibity or even an actual crime what do you do? Do you call the police and report it? I know I do.

So how does this policy change the fact that we all need to report criminal or suspicious activities to the authorities? This is nothing being made into something for political gain pure and simple.

[DoughtyOne]

In the interest of saving bandwidth...

Here pubies, just use the number that most represents your views on this topic.

1. Did you see that jacket he had on yesterday?  He looked soooo handsome.
2. Did you see that smile in the photo yesterday?  Wow!
3. Oh, only a hater of Bush could say something like this!
4. This is all an elaborate setup.  He has the dems right where he wants them now.
5. He has the best advisors in the nation.  They couldn't possibly do anything wrong!
6. Oh they voted for that one percenter Buchanan, they couldn't possibly be right.

Yes, you can use more than one.  Here's a typical representation.

1, 3, 4, 5 and 6...

There, isn't that easy? You can fawn on Bush, dismiss any concerns, explain away everything and still demean the opposition all with less than a few inches of text.

[Alabama_Wild_Man]

The Patriot Act - is only the latest 'kow-towing' of GW to the UN.
In this case the patriot act is America's response to the UN Resolution #1373.

Then, there is this quote:
“ We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. “ ~~ John F. Kennedy

[Ahban]

bump

[F16Fighter]

Can't blame the U.S. governement in a way...

For anyone has ever seen any of the 'Ad Council' TV spots, an "American" citizen can be loosely defined as merely sticking a toe over the Mexican border or landing a raft onto the Florida Keys for a period of three seconds.

[Darth Sidious]

Funny how you haven't chimed in with your usual take on how this is more of Dubya's "wisdom".

Well, what's the matter... cat got your tongue?

[Marysecretary]

Thanks, John. Not only does the government not trust US but WE don't trust the government. Sounds like a mutual admiration society to me...NOT. Actually, this plan sounds Hitler-like (for those who can remember the second world war and the Hitler Youth who spied on their parents).

[subterfuge]

I wrote a paper on this yesterday for a management class I'm taking. Its not that good, but here it is fwiw.

American Spies
American spies. It’s not what it sounds like. The U.S. Justice Department intends to recruit millions of American citizens as government informants. In America, to spy on Americans.
The new recruitment program is, according to the government web-site citizencorps.gov, “a nationwide program giving millions of American truckers, letter carriers, train conductors, ship captains, utility employees, and others a formal way to report suspicious terrorist activity.” That all sounds all right on the surface, but who are the “others” that will also be watching? Will it be the pizza delivery guy trying to get a peek through the window to see what books you may be reading? Will it be the appliance repairman who just happens to get a look at your computer? Oh, nothing to hide? Maybe the new government informant will be the grudge-holding neighbor you had a little spat with a few weeks ago.

Called TIPS, an acronym for Terrorism Information and Prevention System, the program “will have a higher percentage of citizen informants than the Stasi secret police of the former East German block (Goldstein 2002).” Set to start in August of 2002, the citizencorps.gov website already has a hyper-link set up for easy volunteering.
The final paragraph of the Operation TIPS web page states that “Everywhere in America, a concerned worker can call a toll-free number and be connected directly to a hotline routing calls to the proper law enforcement agency or other responder organizations when appropriate.” But when is it appropriate? Can anyone volunteer? The Operation TIPS program doesn’t mention any of the answers to these questions.

It just seems like its common sense for all Americans to be aware of what is going on around them during these uncertain times. Is there really a need for a federal informant system made up of the populace? In a Washington Post editorial entitled “What is Operation TIPS?,” the author has many questions regarding this spying on Americans by Americans, including whether or not it will be focusing on “cargo shipping or on people in their homes (Washington Post 2002).” Also, if there is a focus on peoples’ activities in their homes, what type of activities “will the government be urging workers to report…And what incentives, if any, will be used to encourage volunteers (Washington Post 2002)?”

Public awareness is always a good thing when it comes to crime or terrorism. It is definitely a good policy to educate and train people who are around potential targets or places where lethal materials may be smuggled. However, to recruit Americans whose job it is to enter the homes of the public for reasons unrelated to law enforcement, is wrong. Law enforcement officers cannot enter people’s homes without a warrant or permission of the owner and they should not be using average Americans to conduct surveillance they could not legally conduct themselves, in this writer’s opinion.

In an article that appeared in the Sydney Morning Herald, author Ritt Goldstein points out that current U.S. Justice Department procedures dictate that all reports go into a database for “future reference” and will be available to all police forces and related agencies. Unfortunately, in this author’s opinion, the American who is reported as a “suspect” will be totally unaware of the existence of the report and of its contents.

The recruitment of so many untrained Americans to act as spies is indeed a slippery slope. It is a good idea for Americans to be aware of the possibility of terrorism and should report truly suspicious activities. But to create an official, centralized government network of individuals, who in no way will be required to demonstrate an aptitude for, and competence in, discerning what constitutes suspicious activity relating to terrorism, is wrong. The American people deserve a well thought out plan that both uncovers terrorist activities and protects the liberty of law-abiding citizens.

[niki]

bump

[semaj]

The government is not, never was, and never will be your friend.

[GailA]

The feeling is mutal I don't TRUST THE GUBERMINT.