Must not have been fighting for slavery then...
Posted on 07/02/2002 3:37:44 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
The Osceola Sentinel SUNDAY, JULY 5, 1998 -- An Edition of The Orlando Sentinel
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Historian: Civil War tales are pure bunk
History doesn't lie. Right? Well, the winners want history to make them look good. Sometimes the losers get their say, too.
Perspectives can change. Villains can be made to look like heroes. Interpreting the past can lead to lively debates. And because it is history, often the only confirmation comes from what was written down or told orally through generations.
Even so, care must be taken.
When talk turns to the Civil War and blacks' role with the Confederacy, there is no room for revisionist theories for Asa R Gordon.
For instance:
The Confederate states were interested in white supremacy.
The war between North and South was not about states' rights or a War of Southern independence. States' rights and independence are WHATS of the Civil War. The WHY of it was to preserve slavery, Gordon told a small group at St. James AME Zion church in Kissimmee last week.
Simply put, there should be no memorials honoring men like Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson. They and others resigned from the Union Army and fought against their country.
They were rebels, and they are traitors to the United States. Nations normally don't honor traitors, Gordon, a retired astrophysicist, said to a crowd that included a group from the Osceola Children's Home.
People normally don' t build memorials for traitors, racists or those who practice genocide.
There are no memorials to the Nazis.
In the United States, Confederate memorials dot the countryside. The flag is flown with pride. The Nazi flag - and Nazi leaders - inspire hatred.
It should he no different for Lee and others who fought for the South. The real heroes, Gordon said, are those Southerners who fought for the North.
As for those who try to promote the idea that blacks were willing soldiers for the South, Gordon's research disproves it.
In a lecture that was close to three hours long, the founder and executive director of the Washington, D.C. -based Douglass Institute of Government left no doubt about the fantasies and historical myths of Afro-Confederates.
"The South won in peace what it lost on the battlefield," Gordon said.
The commitment to the neo-Confederate movement is often emotional rather than intellectual, he said. It cannot stand the scrutiny of scholarship. The belief that blacks willingly served in the Confederate Army is ludicrous and harmful, he said.
"A slave didn't have a choice. If his master said he was going, the slave couldn't say no. He was a slave."
Those who say blacks fought for the South should look at Confederate documents, which ban blacks serving as regular members of the Army. They also need to look at records showing that those who did serve deserted when they got the chance.
Propagation of the present-day theories make it hard for people to realize that blacks were unhappy about their condition, Gordon said.
"How can you owe a people anything, if in fact they were so satisfied with the state that suppressed them?" he asked. "How can you correct that legacy if you are in denial about the true reasons?"
Gordon's visit was sponsored by Ann Tyler and Evan McKissic. McKissic, a retired Osceola teacher, has been critical of the theories of another retired local teacher, Nelson Winbush.
Winbush travels the country recounting the stories of his grandfather, who he said willingly and proudly served with Southern forces.
"I try to get the truth out. I talked with my grandfather, and I know what he said," Winbush said.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Pino welcomes comments. He can be reached at (407) 931-5935, by e- mail at OSOpino1@aol.com, by fax at (407)931-5959 or by mail at The Osceola Sentinel, 804 W. Emmett St., Kissimmee, 34741.
In fact, black units were raised almost from the beginning of the war. The first known combat by a black unit was against the Confederates on October 27 & 28, 1862 at Island Mound, Missouri by the 1st Kansas Colored Volunteer Regiment before being mustered into service. The regiment was organized in August 1862, mustered into service January 13, 1863, and later redesignated the 79th United States Colored Infantry Regiment. What you are confusing are the USCT regiments, the formation of which began in 1863, and state volunteer regiments. Those were formed as early as September 1862.
You just described three quarters of the rebel army, billbears. About 30% were draftees and most of the rest had their enlistments involuntarily extended for the duration of the war in 1862. Those are facts. Your claim about Union black soldiers are your own opinion.
However, by the fall of 1862, events had changed in favor of accepting black soldiers. Declining Union enlistments, heavy battle losses and the realization that the war would take more time and resources than expected, confronted President Abraham Lincoln and the Union Army. Continued pressure by abolitionists and awareness of the potential of black labor as the Confederacy had already discovered, also contributed to lifting the Army's prohibition of "Negroes or Mulattoes," in existence since 1820.Let's see, the Emancipation Proclamation was released in Sept '62 and the change in Army procedures didn't happen until at least after that
BS bill. The officers who recruited them were staunch abolitionists. They believed in equality.
You're starting to remind me of a Begala or Carville with your Clintonic spin.
The truth is that the South seceded and fought to preserve slavery. That was the entire reason it seceded without the fear that their slaves were going to be taken away there would have been no rebellion. The North fought to preserve the Union. Most did not give a shiite about slavery, blacks, the idiot culture of the South or any other excuse given for them fighting. Lincoln mobilized to put down the insurrection aimed at destroying the Union.
The truth is the South wanted nothing to do with Black soldiers and resisted to the end enlisting them in any significant numbers. This is easily shown by the records of hundreds of thousands of Blacks fighting for the North in constrast to the words quoted by Whiskey Papa showing the contempt the Southern leaders showed to the idea of black soldiers.
The proportion of blacks fighting for the Cornfederacy was as high as the proportion of Jews fighting for the Nazis. Either was an extreme anomaly.
According to your own numbers there were 4.5 million slaves in the South!! And even accepting your number only 90,000 fought for the north? And reread that page. Those folks were in occupied Southern territory meaning they didn't escape north, the northern invaders came to them. Then not even to free them but to maintain status quo and 'hey while you're at it fight for us and we'll feed you since we've about burned or destroyed everything else around here'. What do you think the other 4,410,000 or so were doing? They couldn't have all stayed at home. No, because just as many blacks were fighting or supporting the South in one form or another.
As for the 180,000 number, it's not mine, it's the city of Alexandria VA with a big ol' picture of Frederick Douglas. You think it would pass the Asa Gordon test? I don't even know that it's true, but I figured hey if this government authority puts up a picture of Douglass not even recognizing his own statement about the blacks fighting for the South, it has to be liberal enough for y'all to accept it
Must not have been fighting for slavery then...
Ditto, I would be really surprised if you sink so low as to endorse Asa Gordon's position. The author of this article is parroting his racist sentiments and the Orlando Sentinel is none the better for publishing this filth. Before you side with Gordon, you better read his website
Oh come on, billbears, now you're starting to sound like stande watie. Sure the south dragged a lot of black labor around with them, and sure a percentage of that labor was there because they wanted to be. But the idea of hundreds of thousands of black soldiers is ridicuolous and always has been. It would have been out of character for the southern leadership to have supported the concept.
April 9, 2802 (L-K)
"The Enemy Within: Black Self-Oppression, A Workshop"
Carter Ward
Are we going to be around then? Talk about future planning!! On a more serious note, he has a page dedicated to how SCOTUS 'stole' the 2000 election.
Non to answer your question It would have been out of character for the southern leadership to have supported the concept.
As out of character as it was for the northern leadership to support the concept officially for 2 years into the war even though evidence presented shows that it happened nonetheless? I'm not saying hundreds of thousands, but I am saying much more than a handful
Thanks but I've got my Saint Abe of Lincoln workshop that weekend. Maybe next time.
The Jewish population in 1860 has been estimated at about 200,000. There were about 8,000 Jewish-Americans in the Union and Confederate armies: approx. 3000 for the South and 5000 for the North (proportional to the population that settled in these regions).
What has always fascinated me about the Civil War is that it was one of the very few wars in history in which Jews fought on both sides.
Do you disavow the article he posted from the Confederate Veteran magazine from 1915? There was no talk of 65,000 Black Confederates back then when there were still tens of thousands of real veterans alive. That crap didn't get invented till much later.
And I still don't get it with the Jews? What are you trying to say? That a few dozen Jews served in the CSA army so there was no anti-Semitism in the south?
LOL!! Couple of questions for you here. Real simple.
1--Which Jewish statesman held 3 different positions on the Confederate Cabinet
2--Where is the ONLY Jewish military cemetary outside of the state of Israel?
Here's a hint. You won't find the answers north of Virginia. Thirdly pick up the Jewish Confederates. Don't think it would open your closed mind but it's still factual. I know that's something you yankees play fast and loose with, this however is truth
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