"THAT which you believe"---"An open letter to Republicans"

6/23/02 | redrock

[redrock]

"This is free ground. All the way from here to the Pacific Ocean. No man has to bow. No man born to royalty. Here we judge you by what you do, not by who your father was. Here you can be something. Here's a place to build a home. It isn't the land--there's always more land. It's the idea that we all have value, you and me, we're worth something more than the dirt. I never saw dirt I'd die for, but I'm not asking you to come join us and fight for dirt. What we're all fighting for, in the end, is each other."

What is it that you believe???

A real question....since so many times on this forum, and others, the Republican 'mantra' has become a simple one.

Defeat the Democrats..whatever the cost..the Democrats are the enemy...(sort of Orwellian in it's simplicity)..repeated time after time...and anyone who dares to ask questions of George Bush's policies and actions is loudly shouted down.

But here's a 'news flash' for ya.......It may be that the Democratic Senators...Representitives.....leaders ARE the enemy of maintaining a Constitutional Republic.

But...the average member of the Democratic Party...is not.

The average member of the Democratic Party is just brainwashed..(for want of a better word)...

Just like the average member of the Republican Party is in danger of becoming.

"This is a party, this Republican Party, a Party for free men, not for blind followers, and not for conformists. "

So..I'll ask my very simple questions once again......

And Republicans who wish to rant and rave about 'third party' this or that...go right ahead.

But George W. Bush barely won the last election.....

You NEED staunch conservatives ( nowadays I guess we would be considered 'radical'.....) to help re-elect him....and others of the party..

CONVINCE us.........that at a certain point you will be willing to fight for 'old time values'.....

CONVINCE us ...that you have not become slavish followers of GWB...in much the same way as some did with Clinton....that you will ask the 'hard questions' (and demand the answers).

CONVINCE us.......and you will not do so by the constant dismissal of our very real concerns.

CONVINCE us.......

-----------------

So where do we 'draw the line'????

Should we elect rapists or murderers...if they are members of the Republican Party..and could 'help retake the Senate'???

At what point do you say 'this far and no further'???

Must every single American 'prostitute' themselves in order for one political party (one which on CLOSE examination is no different than the other one) to 'control' government???

I have certain values and beliefs...based upon my Belief in God.

Should I just throw those Beliefs and Values away...and close my eyes....just so the Republicans can win???

The basis of this Nation is a hardcore belief that the values and ideals (sorry to use that word..ideals...seems that word anymore has the same effect on Republicans as a Cross does to evil) that founded this Nation are important....

[exodus]

To: brat
"...Whatever excuse you want to use, diluting the conservative vote got Bill Clinton elected.
Now, go back and feel good about the choice you made,
but don't try to shrug off the fact that the Reform Party got Clinton elected.
# 249 by Luis Gonzalez
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The Reform Party had nothing to do with it.

Bill Clinton owes his win to Geroge Bush Sr.
Bush's well-publicized "Read my lips" lie cost him the trust of the people.
Clinton won because Bush lied.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"The Reform Party had nothing to do with it."

Don't start with the Science Fiction, I'm not politically naive by a long shot. The Reform Party had everything to do with it.

Yes, "read my lips" was a big mistake, the Democrats in Congress made damned sure that he had to eat his words, and I still voted for Bush...I knew what was going to happen, and it did...twice.

In retrospect, what would have hurt this nation less, four more years of Bush Sr., or eight years of Clinton?

[Japedo]

Well take heart Luis, Algore can Thank Nader if that's how you see it. :)

[cva66snipe]

Seriously, the party system is working against us today. Democrats are way too loyal to the dems, witness the clinton bigots during his presidency. The repubs have the same disease and each party is just locked in combat with the other and they don't care about america's interests. Each party is a fundraising machine that only cares about those who donate money and other powerful interests. It really is in our interest to pull the plug on the two parties.

A good point indeed. Our Constitution was not founded on election of parties. Actually it allowed for a list of the top 5 most voted for if a majority was not won and the list to be narrowed and one to be elected. I don't think the founders were too keen on career politicans either.

From letters and the founding documents themselves I have the impression the founders were relying on many differing viewpoints or political followings to ensure none of them became the ruler of all. I think going back to a more independent course in elections would perhaps yield some welcomed changes in direction. The nation was formed on just a few common truths or beliefs held by many. Upon those few beliefs or ideas all or most could endorse and support. A good mixtutre of Republicans, Dems, Libertains, Constitutist, and Reformers, hold serious debates rather than back room deals seems a better course at this time. That way no one would hold a majority of anything and any leglislation would be forced to stand on it's own merrit.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Ralph Nader and a little Cuban rafter named Elian.

[exodus]

To: Luis Gonzalez
"...I agree with that, and Freedom isn't "FREE" either. It took a lot of bloodshed for this country to be. I just have problems with people so willingly surrendering to the "easy life" as opposed to the "free life" thats all.

So I guess what I'm trying to say, YES they have the right to Vote for it,
But they don't have the right to vote my freedom away at the same time..."
# 244 by Japedo
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Now there's a quandary, Japedo.
As much as I'm a fan of libertarian thought, I never carried that contradiction so far afield.

Voting cannot be the accepted as the final word on a subject.
A vote to restrict a choice is a direct attack on our freedom.

The worst case would be an Amendment creating a Socialist government outright.
Even though it would be completely legal, and would be Constitutional as well,
it would by the very definition of socialism infringe the freedom of every citizen.

[Japedo]

Ralph Nader and a little Cuban rafter named Elian.

The Fact of the matter is Luis, Algore Lost because of ALGORE. The same reason Bush Sr. Lost Because of Bush Sr. (even though I voted for him) I don't know many that did vote for him. Because they DREW THE LINE. Now others can choose to follow such things, and continue the lies, they can face more LOST ELECTIONS. Pure and Simple.

I am not compromising this time. I'm done with the sell outs period. Its time to start holding elected officials accountable, because it is quite clear, they don't hold each other accountable, not to the people, not to the laws. I will no longer enable this, This is my ONE SAY. :)

[Luis Gonzalez]

Hey, I have a question for you.

I know what everyone's definition of a Bushbot is, a person who supports every single thing Bush does or says, and never, ever is critical of his policies at any level.

Now, here's my question, or perhaps it's more of a request.

Could you point me to all the posts by Keyesters, Brigadiers, or Libertarians critizing ANYTHING their candidate of choice opines, or even gracefully accepting criticism from others?

I'll look for your *PING*.

I just won't look for it anytime soon.

[Texasforever]

Now Luis, you know that is NOT allowed. All of those just stand on "principle" don't ya know.

[Japedo]

The worst case would be an Amendment creating a Socialist government outright. Even though it would be completely legal, and would be Constitutional as well, it would by the very definition of socialism infringe the freedom of every citizen.

Well this is indeed a complex issue exodus. The "mob" however doesn't have the right to infringe on those of us who wish to be free. If the mob eventually gets its way (as seen rampant in recent years) And If we choose not to comply then what? This is indeed a deep argument! LOL

[brat]

Unions are the common peoples way of getting power. The problem is most are bad, few are good. Big Business is again recreating the conditions that led to the birth of the Unions. This time there will be a rebellion....the Unions became as totalitarian as business. Free enterprise has disappeared off the face of the earth....its been zoned out on a state wide and local level....unless you have connections. Its all so corrupt that I shudder to think of our future. Our founding fathers were rightly concerned that we not develop an elitest class, and that is precisely what has happened. They weren't Socialists. We all need to live and make our way, and the provisions originally set in place ensured just that. Owners became wealthy and workers could keep a roof over their heads. That day is rapidly disappearing ie. 50% of the population now pays into the lowest tax bracket. What does that tell you about the health of our domestic economy?

[Luis Gonzalez]

"Its time to start holding elected officials accountable..."

And you're going to do that by casting your vote for an individual who will never win, and thus never be held accountable for anything.

When you stare into the face of President Hillary Clinton, don't blame the ones you left on the battle field for the loss of our freedoms, blame the ones who walked away from the fight.

[Luis Gonzalez]

537 votes in Florida, Gore got half a million more than Bush nationally.

I know who's sitting in the WH today, and I'm quite pleased.

But I'm no blind fool either.

[brat]

"To my mind, this is isolationism. I think it to be in America's best interest to export those ideas which made us great. It in our best interest to be imperialists - not to the extent that we actually establish an Empire, in the traditional sense of the word, but so that we use our might to establish pro-American regimes around the world."

If thats the case, we've failed miserably. Where are those ProAmerican regimes? Name one that isn't sucking up because of our money but because of our great Western ideas.

[brat]

You are so right, cva.

[exodus]

To: exodus
Who's asking you to accept anything without questions? People should make whatever decisions they have to make, but in the process, don't shrug off what the effect of those decisions will be. Read Arch-Conservatives posts on this thread, including the quote I posted. That's just the simple truth. Third-party voters on the conservative side amounted to about 1.5% all told. How long do you think that it will be before a third-party candidate gathers enough support to make a run at the White House? Let's imagine, wildly imagine at that, that a third party can increase their votes 10% with every election...."

2034--do you think that after all those years with Liberals in the White House, we'll still have free elections in 2034?
# 258 by Luis Gonzalez
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We have a liberal in the White House now.
Eight years of liberal Clinton, eight years of liberal Bush,
and eight years of liberal whoever, Democrat or Republican, who wins in 2008.

Do you really think that we'll ever have a conservative President,
when we're only given liberals to chose from?

The only way off that merry-go-round is to vote outside of the major parties.
If you vote Republican no matter who they give you,
they have no reason to change.

[brat]

Wrong...Bush lost because he was a fop on just about all Conservative issues...Perot had nothing to do with it.

[brat]

I'm not interested in smoke and mirrors nor parlor games. I like a straight talking, principled candidate and thats almost non-existant these days.

[Japedo]

And you're going to do that by casting your vote for an individual who will never win, and thus never be held accountable for anything.

When you stare into the face of President Hillary Clinton, don't blame the ones you left on the battle field for the loss of our freedoms, blame the ones who walked away from the fight.

Luis, As Much as I understand your argument, (as much as I use to be that way myself.) There comes a Time When you exercise your INDIVIDUAL Right. I will vote for the Man who best Represents the constitution. If the Republican Party wants my vote, they will have to earn it. I am no longer going with the "mob mentality". IT has cost to much. It is My responsibility to Vote what represents me and My country. That is not any thing socialist, Now I'm sorry if that upsets you, and others it is not my fault. IT is the fault of the Party that kilterd off its principles.

It is their fault. They choose to pander and step left, They can gain the votes of people that support that, however in doing so they WILL face their consequences of that action by ME with my PERSONAL VOTE. I will Not ever vote left of any "R" (which today sadly isn't saying much) I will stick with what "I" the individual believes . Kick and scream if you wish, it is tough cookies! It Will not be my fault... It will be the Socialists fault!

I will NOT support them, NO way.

[Luis Gonzalez]

If you can't see a difference between Bush and Clinton, then you and I have nothing more to discuss.