Why There Are So Many Women in the Fathers' Movement

CNSNews.com ^ | June 21, 2002 | Glenn Sacks and Dianna Thompson

[discostu]

The fact that JPC is starting to be used. The fact that men actually get sole custody when the mother is unfit. When I was a kid the only a the man could get custody was if the mother was in jail, and he had a 50/50 chance that if she got out she'd get custody then. Things are moving forward. It's a long trip from where they were so it might not look so good if you don't check out the historical perspective, but they are moving forward.

[Nick Danger]

I support a presumption of joint physical custody except where one parent can be proven unfit, defined as when a parent presents a danger of abuse or neglect.

The key word in that proposal is "proven." For your proposal to work, "proven" has to mean "there was a trial, and the defendant was found guilty." The particular thing to be avoided is anything that would increase the now-epidemic tossing around of false allegations of domestic violence and child abuse. These are seen in so many divorce cases now that the judges know that most of them have to be B.S., but nothing is done about it. There just isn't time to check them out, so in accordance with policy, the man is presumed guilty.

This is an area of law where you have be really careful what you wish for, because there are ideologues and hungry lawyers standing by who will turn anything you do into more of what we have now. If that means a few hundred thousand more men are branded as child abusers so that we can continue to award sole custody to women, they could not care less. For the ideologues, this is all about hosing men out of spite and bigotry. For the lawyers, it's about keeping the system sufficiently biased toward women that they will continue to use the legal system as a club, which causes men to have to spend money on lawyers.

If it ever came about that any legal struggle might be equitable instead of a slam dunk for the woman, women might decide to cool the jets on the lawyering. Both parties to the divorce would then spend less on it. The lawyers obviously don't want that.

[Lorianne]

It would become "mandatory" only by default. If the two parents could not reach a mutual decision and both meet the terms of the agreement, then the 50/50 JPC default would kick in as "mandatory".

[Carolina]

Bump to the top.

[wingnuts'nbolts]

I believe it was Gloria Steinham (sp) who said "All sex is rape!" Kim Gandy is a rabid man hater, money lover who should be ignored at all times. Oh, and 60 someting Gloria just got married!! Wonder how she likes being raped!

These anti men terrorists have ruined more lives, male and female, to say nothing of the children involved, than Osoma did on Sept. 11th and it is just as devistating.

[Don Joe]

"Then we'd know whether and imbalance in mother-custody is truly a bias of the courts or not, or if so to what degree."

If you can so much as pose that as a valid issue with a straight face, you're either living in la la land, or, burdened by a seriously heavy agenda.

In either case, that statement alone has discredited your entire rant. (Yes, there are countless other things you've said that also discredit it, but hey, when you bring out the 800 pound gorilla of disingenuous debate tactics, it's game over.)

[avenir]

"move away moms..."

I had a friend who this happened to. He and his ex-wife weren't enemies, but she was a career woman and moved for that purpose. At first he would pay to fly his daughter back to him twice a month. When the ex moved again he packed up and moved where she did so he could be in his daughter's life. He told me he thought it was "very important" for her to have her father's love and presence.

THAT'S a good man.

[avenir]

This serves as a good warning to me and other unmarrieds: BE VERY, VERY, CAREFUL WHO YOU MARRY. Listen to your gut. Watch for warning signs that say "Not the one."

I have a friend, now divorced, whose sister came up to him just before the wedding and said "_______, if you don't want to go through with this we have a car waiting for you and we'll get you out of here."

When he told me this I thought, "MAN! When your SISTER asks you if you need help escaping from possibly one of the worst decisions of your life, don't you take that as a sign?!?!?!?

He can laugh about it now. But that decision (to marry someone wrong for him) brought him a lot of grief. Fortunately there were no children involved.

[Brytani]

Almost every father's rights group I can think of is strongly in favor of joint custody being the norm in custody cases.

Check out S P A R C
Separated Parenting Access and Resource Center
http://www.deltabravo.net/cust ody/
They are strongly pro joint custody and have links on their site to numerous father's rights groups that are pushing for the same.

[Lorianne]

Why? Don't you want both parents to be full hands-on parents to their kids? Is is a good idea or not? I'd certainly like to find out what people think about that. If we made JPC the default and a parent had to specifically opt out legally, then we'd have our answer.

Is there some problem with learning the truth?

[Lorianne]

Joint custody is not the same thing as Joint Physical Custody. I'm talking about full on 50/50 hands on parenting. That is not what simple "joint custody" arrangements require.

[Lorianne]

I have no idea what you're referring to. Certainly not anything that I've posted. I think kids need a mother and a father committed to parenting them, even after a divorce.

What is it you are trying to say?

[Brytani]

Whihch is exactly what the vast majority of father's rights groups want and push for. They also push for laws limiting one parent from moving to another area thereby limiting the amount of time the other parent has the child.

[Lorianne]

Could you please post a link to these Father's Rights groups who you say support default JPC judgements, referred to in the legal jargon as Rebuttal Presumption of Joint Physical Custody (RPJPC)?

I'm haven't seen that Father's Rights groups support RPJPC, nor do mainstream feminists groups. Neither one wants that because they want the wiggle room to have child custody be a bargaining chip in gender politics.

If we HAD true RPJPC, a parent would have to specifically petition a court to NOT be required to take his/her 50% share of physical custody and to make other arrangements, including moving geographically from the child(ren). Don't get me wrong, I think people should be able to make alternative arrangements from the default position. That would be fine, but then we'd have a TRUE statistical picture of who and why people don't want 50% custody.

[DennisR]

I disagree that each case should be treated differently. This is why the courts have so much sway. Divorce should be cold, cruel, heartless, and businesslike. All physical assets accumulated during a marriage would be split evenly down the middle. Children would awarded to the parents in this manner: if the first child is a boy, he goes with Dad; if a girl, she goes with Mom. The second child would go to the opposite parent until they run out of kids. No court-ordered visitation right. No court-ordered child support. Period, end of story. This is the only way to keep emotions--which by default goes against the man--out of it.

[Don Joe]

"Is there some problem with learning the truth?"

Apparently there is, or else you'd consider trying it yourself.

Look, lady, I'll be polite. You have "issues". It's so painfully obvious that it worries me that you'd persist in acting out the "honest questioner" role.

Let's stop here. Leave me alone, OK?

[discostu]

What if mom paid for dad's college and he walked out on her the minute he got his diploma? He should still get half? What if dad has said repeatedly that he doesn't want kids and has sworn to abondon any he gets? He should still get custody of the son? What if mom is a crackhead? She should still get custody the daughter? What if both parents agree to JPF? One of them should still be completely cut off from each kid?

A solution of "f#ck everybody" is no solution.

[Lorianne]

Weird. Some people who initiate a discussion with you and then when it's obvious they can't hold up their end of the discussiont its the whining "leave me alone" cry.

Just remember, you addressed my comments. No one made you.

Very telling.

[DennisR]

"What if mom paid for dad's college and he walked out on her the minute he got his diploma? He should still get half?"

If Mom feels like this could happen, she should be getting a diploma, too. She should not leave it up to Dad. If she does, and the guy is a jerk and walks out, too bad. She should have seen it coming. Or at least be willing to own up to it being a bad decision.

"What if dad has said repeatedly that he doesn't want kids and has sworn to abondon any he gets? He should still get custody of the son?"

Why would any woman have kids with this kind of guy? If she does, it's her problem just as much as his. And, yes, he should still get custody of the son. But in this case, he wouldn't want the son anyway, so would probably be willing to give him up.

"What if mom is a crackhead? She should still get custody the daughter?"

If a parent has been convicted of a crime in a court of law, they would forfeit their rights to custody.

"What if both parents agree to JPF? One of them should still be completely cut off from each kid?"

I did not say that either parent should be cut off from any kids, just that custody would be to one or the other. By doing this you would have the best chance in forcing both parents to behave like adults and share the kids. But there would be not time/money issues that could/would be used as bargaining chips and extortion leverage.

"A solution of "f#ck everybody" is no solution."

In a divorce, this usually happens to everyone anyway. And this continues to happen even after the divorce. My solution would actually help put a limit on how much of this could continue happening. Like I said before, divorce should be cruel, harsh, cold, and businesslike. Maybe then people would think at least twice before making a marriage commitment and then pulling the plug a few years later.