Parents Sue School over 'Lord's Prayer'

FOX NEWS VIA WORLDNETDAILY ^ | 5/02/02 | Steve Brown

[TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!]

Christine Skarin and her daughters are suing over Woodbine High School's graduation song.

WOODBINE, Iowa

[Salvation]

Separation of church and state wasn't written into US constitutional law until 1947.

It is still not there. Those words do not appear in the constitution.

This is right. Everyone read the Constitution!!! Then report back to this thread. LOL!

[Polybius]

What is the federal court going to do if the entire graduating class and their parents just go ahead and sing the damn song anyway?

If the school mandates the song, the school violates the First Amemendment. If the graduating class voluntarily sings the song, it is protected by the First Amendment.

The U.S. Constitution is a wonderful document.

[LarryLied]

Huh? Where did I say censor religion? I believe in the First Amendment and the ability of everyone to practice or ignore their religion as they see fit.

I thought you wanted judges to stop religious songs in schools, stop the ten commandments from being posted in government areas and to prevent teachers or coaches from leading prayers.

Sorry if I misunderstood. But if you do want judges to do that, you are endorsing censorship. There is nothing in the constitution preventing any of the above. Only some recent decisions by liberal judges.

Here is a page of the textbook all or nearly all of the men who wrote the first amendment read as children:

The New England Primer was used in homes, private and public schools from the 1600s until around 1900. None of the men who wrote the first amendment ever suggested it should not be supported by government. Or that it was unconstitutional for Congress to authorize the printing of Bibles. Or that church services could not be held in government buildings. Or that congress could not purchase land to give to Christian missionaries so they could set up schools and proselytize to the Indians.

[LarryLied]

If the school mandates the song, the school violates the First Amemendment.

Why did it take over 140 years for judges to see that is the case?

According to the consitution and first amendment, schools can teach or mandate anything they want. Or they could until liberals took over the Supreme Court and wrote new law from the bench.

If you want to censor religion, pass a law or repeal the First Amendment. Don't play liberal mind rot and pretend there is some consitutional basis for your opinion. Public schools were originally set up to push religion. Massachusetts enacted the first mandatory attendance law in the nation because they wanted to bring Irish Catholics into a Protestant culture.

The Klu Klux Klan got a law passed in Oregon in the 1930s essentially banning private schools because they did not want Catholics to set up their own schools, they wanted them in Protestant government schools.

[Polybius]

If the school mandates the song, the school violates the First Amemendment.
**********************************

According to the consitution and first amendment, schools can teach or mandate anything they want. Or they could until liberals took over the Supreme Court and wrote new law from the bench.

If you want to censor religion, pass a law or repeal the First Amendment. Don't play liberal mind rot and pretend there is some consitutional basis for your opinion. Public schools were originally set up to push religion. Massachusetts enacted the first mandatory attendance law in the nation because they wanted to bring Irish Catholics into a Protestant culture.

The Klu Klux Klan got a law passed in Oregon in the 1930s essentially banning private schools because they did not want Catholics to set up their own schools, they wanted them in Protestant government schools.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...."

The school in question in the article is a public school. Where does the First Amendment say that Protestantism is to be "pushed" in public schools?

Isn't "pushing" Protestantism an establishment of Protestantism? Isn't "pushing" Protestantism an interference with the free exercise of Catholicism, Judaism, Mormonism, etc., etc.?

PRIVATE schools can push whatever religion they want. That is why my children are in a private Christian school and not in public school.

From the wording of your post, it is hard to know where you stand. Is it your contention that the First Amendment prohibition of the establishment of a religion means that it is acceptable to "push" Protestantism in a public school or that the KKK was on the right track?

If a tax payer funded school district next to the Canadian border wants to "push" the Church of England for all students, is that Constitutional?

If a tax payer funded school district in Los Angeles wants to "push" Roman Catholicism for all students, is that Constitutional?

If a tax payer funded school district in Utah wants to "push" Mormonism for all students, is that Constitutional?

If an Islamic majority public school district in Detroit wants to "push" Islamic fundamentalism for all students, is that Constitutional?

If a public school district in San Francisco wants to "push" Satanism for all students, is that Constitutional?

[TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!]

Ditto, This is the bottom line!

Well said!

[LarryLied]

Of course it is.

Do you honestly believe the framers wrote the first amendment to ensure citizens were not able to organize and express their faith in a public forum?

Don't you find it curious that the censorship of religion comes not from elected officials but from unelected judges?

[LarryLied]

The ACLU hates the Jewish community too.

Snort...chuckle...chuckle...

[Polybius]

Do you honestly believe the framers wrote the first amendment to ensure citizens were not able to organize and express their faith in a public forum?

No, I do not. What I believe is posted in my original Post # 162

If the school mandates the song, the school violates the First Amemendment. If the graduating class voluntarily sings the song, it is protected by the First Amendment.

In Post # 164 you wrote:

According to the consitution and first amendment, schools can teach or mandate anything they want. Or they could until liberals took over the Supreme Court and wrote new law from the bench. If you want to censor religion, pass a law or repeal the First Amendment. Don't play liberal mind rot and pretend there is some consitutional basis for your opinion. Public schools were originally set up to push religion. Massachusetts enacted the first mandatory attendance law in the nation because they wanted to bring Irish Catholics into a Protestant culture.

I still have a hard time believing that you are actually arguing that a public school has a legal right to "push" a certain religious denomination.

If that were the case, a Roman Catholic majority public school in Los Angeles could require your child to recite the Hail Mary each morning.

If that were the case, a Mormon majority public school in Salt Lake City could require your child to recite from the Book of Mormon each morning.

If that were the case, a Muslim majority public school in Detroit could require your child to recite from the Koran each morning.

I believe that it is the First Amendment right of every American student to recite a Catholic prayer, a Protestant prayer, a Jewish prayer, an Islamic prayer, a prayer to Sol Invictus or any other prayer they please or to say no prayer at all during an appropriate time during the school day.

I also believe that it is the First Amendment right of every American student not to be mandated to recite or sing a prayer against their will.

Where, exactly, do we disagree?

[scan58]

Do you honestly believe the framers wrote the first amendment to ensure citizens were not able to organize and express their faith in a public forum?

'...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...'

So many forget about that part.
I still don't understand how some folks can read "seperation of church and state" in the words of the First Ammendment. It just looks, to me, that these guys were trying to say Congress shouldn't get involved with the people's religious beliefs and practices...PERIOD! Doesn't that mean that if the majority of people in a community want to sing the Lord's Prayer at a graduation, then it's OK??!! Doesn't the fact that the U.S. is a free country allow these people who do not agree with the majority of the community to move to another where their own beliefs are more widely practiced?

I'm no expert on The Constitution nor am I well read on American history, but I'm pretty sure I'm with you on this, Larry, but even though this thread has some great arguments, it looks like the lot of us are just really on the same side of different fences...(did I say that right?)

[LarryLied]

I am not making a claim that anyone should push faith in schools. Only that there is no constitutional barrier to it (except recent rulings by liberal judges).

Religion was pushed in government schools for over 100 years. People can do that if they wish. Or those opposed can try to, democratically, pass a law prohibiting it.

Aside from the fact that there is no constitutional or historical basis for judges censoring religion in government schools consider the arrogance of these rulings. An extremely diverse nation of over 270 million is told by a handful of judges it cannot have local control over the school for which they are taxed. If a community in New Mexico which is 75% Sikh wants whatever Sikhs think pushed in the local school, so be it. They pay for them.

Our system was designed for interaction. People were supposed to work these things out among themselves, not have judges dictate to them where and when religion can be mentioned.

If you are concerned about religion causing animosity between groups,consider the animosity censoring religion creates.

[Polybius]

Doesn't that mean that if the majority of people in a community want to sing the Lord's Prayer at a graduation, then it's OK??!! Doesn't the fact that the U.S. is a free country allow these people who do not agree with the majority of the community to move to another where their own beliefs are more widely practiced?

See my Post #170.

If a Catholic majority public school in Los Angeles has a graduation and the community, of it's own free will, organizes a recital of the Hail Mary, that is OK.

If the Catholic majority public school requires a Protestant, Jewish, Mormon, or Islamic student to recite the Hail Mary, that is not OK.

The People can choose to pray however they please.

The Government may not mandate any prayer at all and, in my opinion, cannot prohibit the People from paying however they please.

[LarryLied]

Doesn't that mean that if the majority of people in a community want to sing the Lord's Prayer at a graduation, then it's OK??!!

Yes. Doesn't have to be a majority even. The right is absolute, not contingent upon a vote (that is the way it usually works in practice however).

One of the arguements which is most offensive is "What about Wicca, what about Thuggery, what about Islamic fundamentalism? They are next! They are next! Do you want that? Do you want that?"

That line of reasoning assumes people are not rational, people are not tolerant and people cannot work things out by themselves.

Unelected judges must tell them what to do. We must censor religion because some people might abuse their freedom.

[LarryLied]

If the Catholic majority public school requires a Protestant, Jewish, Mormon, or Islamic student to recite the Hail Mary, that is not OK.

And how likely is that to happen? And how long would it continue if it did happen? A straw man argument.

I've attended Catholic and Jewish schools (I am neither). There was more tolerance of my faith in those institutions than in any government school I was ever in.

[rustbucket]

I thought you wanted judges to stop religious songs in schools, stop the ten commandments from being posted in government areas and to prevent teachers or coaches from leading prayers.

Private schools can have religious songs (right of assembly, free speech, free exercise of religion), government should stay out of religion (Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion), and teachers and coaches can lead prayers in private schools (right of assembly, free speech, free exercise of religion).

Feel free to do all that. I'm not censoring you. But if you try to impose your religious views on my kids in public school, I'll see you in court and I'll win. I'm sorry that you don't seem to understand.

Your argument for religious songs and prayers in public schools indicates that you are in favor of state sponsored religion (the question I asked but you didn't answer directly). Sorry, but we have little in common. Your view is directly opposite that expressed in the First Amendment. My sympathies to you.

[Polybius]

If a community in New Mexico which is 75% Sikh wants whatever Sikhs think pushed in the local school, so be it. They pay for them.

That's what I thought you meant and, on that point, we will have to respectfully agree to disagree.

The way I read the First Amendment, the Sikhs would have the right to "push" the Sikh religion at a private school just as Christianity is "pushed" at the private Christian school my kids attend.

However, the way I read the First Amendment, the Sikh majority would have no right to "push" the Sikh religion at a tax-payer supported Government school. In my opinion, that would violate the establishment clause of the First Amendment as it would make the Sikh religion the "established religion" in that particular New Mexico town.

We are a Constitutional Republic and not a Democracy. Merely having 75% of the local vote or even 99% of the local vote does not mean that a community can do whatever it pleases under the law.

[senorita]

If the girls are in choir they can just not participate in the "offensive" song. We have Jehovah Witness children in school everyday who don't participate in the flag salute or the school Christmas pageant, etc.
These girls have a right to believe as they like, however no one is forcing them to participate. I think if this is a tradition in this school, they knew well in advance that they would be singing the Lord's Prayer during graduation excerises. Our government is based on Christian principles, it says right there on our money "In God we Trust", its no secret to anyone living here. You can believe what you like, but America is a Christian nation. If you don't want to participate, don't, but don't expect the rest of us to cater to your "needs".

[scan58]

ditto :-)

[jo6pac]

it says right there on our money "In God we Trust",...

Blasphemy!