Posted on 02/25/2002 11:01:41 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
JOHN WESLEY SERMON ONE HUNDRED TWENTY-EIGHT FREE GRACE PREACEHD AT BRISTOL, IN THE YEAR 1740 "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?" Rom. 8:32
___________________ TO THE READER Nothing but the strongest conviction, not only that what is here advanced is "the truth as it is in Jesus," but also that I am indispensably obliged to declare this truth to all the world, could have induced me openly to oppose the sentiments of those whom I esteem for their work's sake: At whose feet may I be found in the day of the Lord Jesus! Should any believe it his duty to reply hereto, I have only one request to make, -- Let whatsoever you do, be done inherently, in love, and in the spirit of meekness. Let your very disputing show that you have "put on, as the elect of God, bowel of mercies, gentleness, longsuffering; "that even according to this time it may be said, "See how these Christians love one another!"
ADVERTISEMENT Whereas a pamphlet entitled, "Free Grace Indeed," has been published against this Sermon; this is to inform the publisher, that I cannot answer his tract till he appears to be more in earnest. For I dare not speak of "the deep things of God" in the spirit of a prize-fighter or a stage-player.
___________________ 1. How freely does God love the world! While we were yet sinners, "Christ died for the ungodly." While we were "dead in our sin," God "spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all." And how freely with him does he "give us all things!" Verily, FREE GRACE is all in all!
2. The grace or love of God, whence cometh our salvation, is FREE IN ALL, and FREE FOR ALL. 3. First. It is free in all to whom it is given. It does not depend on any power or merit in man; no, not in any degree, neither in whole, nor in part. It does not in anywise depend either on the good works or righteousness of the receiver; not on anything he has done, or anything he is. It does not depend on his endeavors. It does not depend on his good tempers, or good desires, or good purposes and intentions; for all these flow from the free grace of God; they are the streams only, not the fountain. They are the fruits of free grace, and not the root. They are not the cause, but the effects of it. Whatsoever good is in man, or is done by man, God is the author and doer of it. Thus is his grace free in all; that is, no way depending on any power or merit in man, but on God alone, who freely gave us his own Son, and "with him freely giveth us all things.
4. But it is free for ALL, as well as IN ALL. To this some have answered, "No: It is free only for those whom God hath ordained to life; and they are but a little flock. The greater part of God hath ordained to death; and it is not free for them. Them God hateth; and, therefore, before they were born, decreed they should die eternally. And this he absolutely decreed; because so was his good pleasure; because it was his sovereign will. Accordingly, they are born for this, -- to be destroyed body and soul in hell. And they grow up under the irrevocable curse of God, without any possibility of redemption; for what grace God gives. he gives only for this, to increase, not prevent, their damnation."
5. This that decree of predestination. But methinks I hear one say, "This is not the predestination which I hold: I hold only the election of grace. What I believe is not more than this, -- that God,, before the foundation of the world, did elect a certain number of men to be justified, sanctified, and glorified. Now, all these will be saved, and none else; for the rest of mankind God leaves to themselves: So they follow the imaginations of their own hearts, which are only evil continually, and, waxing worse and worse, are at length justly punished with everlasting destruction."
6. Is this all the predestination which you hold? Consider; perhaps this is not all. Do not you believe God ordained them to this very thing" If so, you believe the whole degree; you hold predestination in the full sense which has been above described. But it may be you think you do not. Do not you then believe, God hardens the hearts of them that perish: Do not you believe, he (literally) hardened Pharaoh's heart; and that for this end he raised him up, or created him? Why, this amounts to just the same thing. If you believe Pharaoh, or any one man upon earth, was created for this end, -- to be damned, -- you hold all that has been said of predestination. And there is no need you should add, that God seconds his degree, which is supposed unchangeable and irresistible, by hardening the hearts of those vessels of wrath whom that decree had before fitted for destruction.
7. well, but it may be you do not believe even this; you do not hold any decree of reprobation; you do not think God decrees any man to be damned, not hardens, irresistibly fits him, for damnation; you only say, "God eternally decreed, that all being dead in sin, he would say to some of the dry bones, Live, and to others he would not; that, consequently, these should be made alive, and those abide in death, -- these should glorify God by their salvation, and those by their destruction."
8. Is not this what you mean by the election of grace? If it be, I would ask one or two question: Are any who are not thus elected saved? or were any, from the foundation of the world? Is it possible any man should be saved unless he be thus elected? If you say, "No," you are but where you was; you are not got one hair's breadth farther; you still believe, that, in consequence of an unchangeable, irresistible decree of God, the greater part of mankind abide in death, without any possibility of redemption; inasmuch as none can save them but God, and he will not save them. You believe he hath absolutely decreed not to save them; and what is this but decreeing to damn them? It is, in effect, neither more not less; it comes to the same thing; for if you are dead, and altogether unable to make yourself alive, then, if God has absolutely decreed he will make only others alive, and not you, he hath absolutely decreed your everlasting death; you are absolutely consigned to damnation. So then, though you use softer words than some, you mean the self-same thing; and God's decree concerning the election of grace, according to your account of it, amounts to neither more not less than what others call God's decree of reprobation.
9. Call it therefore by whatever name you please, election, preterition, predestination, or reprobation, it comes in the end to the same thing. The sense of all is plainly this, -- by virtue of an eternal, unchangeable, irresistible decree of God, on part of mankind are infallibly saved, and the rest infallibly damned; it being impossible that any of the former should be damned. or that any of the latter should be saved.
10. But if this be so, then is all preaching vain. It is needless to them that are elected; for they, whether with preaching or without, will infallibly be saved. Therefore, the end of preaching -- to save should -- is void with regard to them; and it is useless to them that are not elected, for they cannot possibly be saved: They, whether with preaching or without, will infallibly be damned. The end of preaching is therefore void with regard to them likewise; so that in either case our preaching is vain, as you hearing is also vain.
11. This then, is a plain proof that the doctrine of predestination is not a doctrine of God, because it makes void the ordinance of God; and God is not divided against himself. A Second is, that it directly tends to destroy that holiness which is the end of all the ordinances of God. I do not say, none who hold it are holy; (for God is of tender mercy to those who are unavoidably entangled in errors of any kind;) but that the doctrine itself, -- that every man is either elected or not elected from eternity, and that the one must inevitably be saved, and the other inevitably damned, -- has a manifest tendency to destroy holiness in general; for it wholly takes away those first motives to follow after it, so frequently proposed in Scripture, the hope of future reward and fear of punishment, the hope of heaven and fear of hell. That these shall go away into everlasting punishment, and those into life eternal, is not motive to him to struggle for life who believes his lot is cast already; it is not reasonable for him so to do, if he thinks he is unalterably adjudged either to life or death. You will say, "But he knows not whether it is life or death." What then? -- this helps not the matter; for if a sick man knows that he must unavoidably die, or unavoidably recover, though he knows not which, it is unreasonable for him to take any physic at all. He might justly say, (and so I have heard some speak, both in bodily sickness and in spiritual,) "If I am ordained to life, I shall live; if to death, I shall live; so I need not trouble myself about it." So directly does this doctrine tend to shut the very gate of holiness in general, -- to hinder unholy men from ever approaching thereto, or striving to enter in thereat.
12. as directly does this doctrine tend to destroy several particular branches of holiness. Such are meekness and love, -- love, I mean, of our enemies, -- of the evil and unthankful. I say not, that none who hold it have meekness and love; (for as is the power of God, so is his mercy;) but that it naturally tends to inspire, or increase, a sharpness or eagerness of temper, which is quite contrary to the meekness of Christ; as then especially appears, when they are opposed on this head. And it as naturally inspires contempt or coldness towards those whom we suppose outcast form God. "O but," you say. "I suppose no particular man a reprobate." You mean you would not if you could help it: But you cannot help sometimes applying your general doctrine to particular persons: The enemy of souls will apply it for you. You know how often he has done so. But you rejected the thought with abhorrence. True; as soon as you could; but how did it sour and sharpen your spirit in the mean time! you well know it was not the spirit of love which you then felt towards that poor sinner, whom you supposed or suspected, whether you would or no, to have been hated of God from eternity.
13. Thirdly. This doctrine tends to destroy the comfort of religion, the happiness of Christianity. This is evident as to all those who believe themselves to be reprobated, or who only suspect or fear it. All the great and precious promises are lost to them; they afford them no ray of comfort: For they are not the elect of God; therefore they have neither lot nor portion in them. This is an effectual bar to their finding any comfort or happiness, even in that religion whose ways are designed to be "ways of pleasantness, and all her paths peace."
14. And as to you who believe yourselves the elect of God, what is your happiness? I hoe, not a notion, a speculative belief, a bare opinion of any kind; but a feeling possession of God in your heart, wrought in you by the Holy Ghost, or, the witness of God's Spirit with your spirit that you are a child of God. This, otherwise termed "the full assurance of faith,: is the true ground of a Christian's happiness. And it does indeed imply a full assurance that all your past sins are forgiven, and that you are now a child of God. But it does not necessarily imply a full assurance of our future perseverance. I do not say this is never joined to it, but that it is not necessarily implied therein; for many have the one who have not the other.
15. Now, this witness of the Spirit experience shows to be much obstructed by this doctrine; and not only in those who, Believing themselves reprobated, by this belief thrust it far from them, but even in them that have tasted of that good gift, who yet have soon lost it again, and fallen back into doubts, and fears, and darkness, -- horrible darkness, that might be felt! And I appeal to any of you who hold this doctrine, to say, between God and your own hearts, whether you have not often a return of doubts and fears concerning your election or perseverance! If you ask, "Who has not?" I answer, Very few of those that hold this doctrine; but many, very many, of those that hold it not, in all parts of the earth; -- many of these have enjoyed the uninterrupted witness of his Spirit, the continual light of his countenance, from the moment wherein they first believed, for many months or years, to this day.
16. That assurance of faith which these enjoy excludes all doubt and fear, It excludes all kinds of doubt and fear concerning their future perseverance; though it is not properly, as was said before, an assurance of what is future, but only of what now is. And this needs not for its support a speculative belief, that whoever is once ordained to life must live; for it is wrought from hour to hour, by the mighty power of God, "by the Holy Ghost which is given unto them." And therefore that doctrine is not of God, because it tends to obstruct, if not destroy, this great work of the Holy Ghost, whence flows the chief comfort of religion, the happiness of Christianity.
17. Again: How uncomfortable a thought is this, that thousands and millions of men, without any preceding offense or fault of theirs, were unchangeably doomed to everlasting burnings! How peculiarly uncomfortable must it be to those who have put on Christ! to those who, being filled with bowels of mercy, tenderness, and compassion, could even "wish themselves accursed for their brethren's sake!"
18. Fourthly. This uncomfortable doctrine directly tends to destroy our zeal for good works. And this it does, First, as it naturally tends (according to what was observed before) to destroy our love to the greater part of mankind, namely, the evil and unthankful. For whatever lessens our love, must go far lessen our desire to do them good. This it does, Secondly, as it cuts off one of the strongest motives to all acts of bodily mercy, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and the like, -- viz., the hope of saving their souls from death. For what avails it to relieve their temporal wants, who are just dropping into eternal fire? "Well; but run and snatch them as brands out of the fire.: Nay, this you suppose impossible. They were appointed thereunto, you say, from eternity, before they had done either good or evil. you believe it is the will of God they should die. And "who hath resisted his will?" But you say you do not know whether these are elected or not. What then? If you know they are the one or the other, -- that they are either elected or not elected, -- all your labour is void and vain. In either case, your advice, reproof, or exhortation is as needless and useless as our preaching. It is needless to them that are elected; for they will infallibly be saved without it. It is useless to them that are not elected; for with or without it they will infallibly be damned; therefore you cannot consistently with your principles take any pains about their salvation. Consequently, those principles directly tend to destroy you zeal for good works; for all good works; but particularly for the greatest of all, the saving of souls from death.
19. But, Fifthly, this doctrine not only tends to destroy Christian holiness, happiness, and good works, but hath also a direct and manifest tendency to overthrow the whole Christian Revelation. The point which the wisest of the modern unbelievers most industriously labour to prove, is, that the Christian Revelation is not necessary. They well know, could they once show this, the conclusion would be too plain to be denied, "If it be not necessary, it is not true," Now, this fundamental point you give up. For supposing that eternal, unchangeable decree, one part of mankind must be saved, though the Christian Revelation were not in being, and the other part of mankind must be damned, notwithstanding that Revelation. And what would an infidel desire more? You allow him all he asks. In making the gospel thus unnecessary to all sorts of men, you give up the whole Christian cause. "O tell it not in Gath! lest the daughters of the uncircumcised rejoice; "lest the sons of unbelief triumph!
20. And as this doctrine manifestly and directly tends to overthrow the whole Christian Revelation, so it does the same thing, by plain consequence, in making that Revelation contradict itself. For it is grounded on such an interpretation of some texts (more or fewer it matters not) as flatly contradicts all the other texts, and indeed the whole scope and tenor of Scripture. For instance: The assertors of this doctrine interpret that text of Scripture, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated," as implying that God in a literal sense hated Esau, and all the reprobated, from eternity. Now, what can possibly be a more flat contradiction than this, not only to the whole scope and tenor of Scripture, but also to all those particular texts which expressly declare, "God is love?" Again: They infer from that text, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy," (Romans 4:15) that God is love only to some men, viz.,the elect, and that he hath mercy for those only; flatly contrary to which is the whole tenor of Scripture, as is that express declaration in particular, "The Lord is loving unto every man; and his mercy is over all his works." (Psalm 114:9.) Again: They infer from that and the like texts, "It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy,: that he showeth mercy only to those to whom he had respect from all eternity. Nay, but who replieth against God now? You now contradict the whole oracles of God, which declare throughout, "God is no respecter of persons:' (Acts 10:34) "There is no respect of persons with him." (Rom. 2:11.) Again: from that text, "The children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; it was said unto her," unto Rebecca, "The elder shall serve the younger;"you infer, that our being predestinated, or elect, no way depends on the foreknowledge of God. Flatly contrary to this are all the scriptures; and those in particular, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God; " (1 Peter 1:2;) "Whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate." (Rom. 8:29.)
21. And "the same Lord over all is rich" in mercy "to all that call upon him:" (Romans 10:12:) But you say, "No; he is such only to those for whom Christ died. And those are not all, but only a few, whom God hath chosen out of the world; for he died not for all, but only for those who were 'chosen in him before the foundation of the world.'" (Eph. 1:4.) Flatly contrary to your interpretation of these scriptures, also, is the whole tenor of the New Testament; as are in particular those texts: -- "Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died," (Rom. 14:15,) -- a clear proof that Christ died, not only for those that are saved, but also for them that perish: He is "the Saviour of the world;" (John 4:42;) He is "the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world;" (John 1:29;) "He is the propitiation, not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world;" (1 John 2:2;) "He," the living God, "is the Savior of all men;" (1 Timothy 4:10;) "He gave himself a ransom for all;" (1 Tim. 2:6;) "He tasted death for every man." (Heb. 2:9.)
22. If you ask, "Why then are not all men saved?" the whole law and the testimony answer, First, Not because of any decree of God; not because it is his pleasure they should die; for, As I live, saith the Lord God," I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth." (Ezek. 18:3, 32.) Whatever be the cause of their perishing, it cannot be his will, if the oracles of God are true; for they declare, "He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance;" (2 Pet. 3:9;) "He willeth that all men should be saved." And they, Secondly, declare what is the cause why all men are not saved, namely, that they will not be saved: So our Lord expressly, "Ye will not come unto me that ye may have life." (John 5:40.) "The power of the Lord is present to heal" them, but they will not be healed. "They reject the counsel," the merciful counsel, "of God against themselves," as did their stiff-necked forefathers. And therefore are they without excuse; because God would save them, but they will not be saved: This is the condemnation, "How often would I have gathered you together, and ye would not!" (Matt. 23:37.)
23. Thus manifestly does this doctrine tend to overthrow the whole Christian Revelation, by making it contradict itself; by giving such an interpretation of some texts, as flatly contradicts all the other texts, and indeed the whole scope and tenor of Scripture; -- an abundant proof that it is not of God. But neither is this all: For, Seventhly, it is a doctrine full of blasphemy; of such blasphemy as I should dread to mention, but that the honour of our gracious God, and the cause of his truth, will not suffer me to be silent. In the cause of God, then, and from a sincere concern for the glory of his great name, I will mention a few of the horrible blasphemies contained in this horrible doctrine. But first, I must warn every one of you that hears, as ye will answer it at the great day, not to charge me (as some have done) with blaspheming, because I mention the blasphemy of others. And the more you are grieve with them that do thus blaspheme, see that ye "confirm your love towards them: the more, and that your heart's desire, and continual prayer to God, be, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do!"
24. This premised, let it be observed, that this doctrine represents our blessed Lord, "Jesus Christ the righteous," "the only begotten Son of the Father, full of grace and truth," as an hypocrite, a deceiver of the people, a man void of common sincerity. For it cannot be denied, that he everywhere speaks as if he was willing that all men should be saved. Therefore, to say he was not willing that all men should be saved, is to represent him as a mere hypocrite and dissembler. It cannot be denied that the gracious words which came out of his mouth are full of invitations to all sinners. To say, then, he did not intend to save all sinners, is to represent him as a gross deceiver of the people. You cannot deny that he says, "Come unto me, all ye that are weary and heavy laden." If, then, you say he calls those that cannot come; those whom he knows to be unable to come; those whom he can make able to come, but will not; how is it possible to describe greater insincerity? You represent him as mocking his helpless creatures, by offering what he never intends to give. You describe him as saying on thing, and meaning another; as pretending the love which his had not. Him, in "whose mouth was no guile," you make full of deceit, void of common sincerity; -- then especially, when, drawing nigh the city, He wept over it, and said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, -- and ye would not;" hqelhsa -- kai ouk hqelhsate. Now, if you say, they would, but he would not, you represent him (which who could hear?) as weeping crocodiles' tears; weeping over the prey which himself had doomed to destruction!
25. Such blasphemy this, as one would think might make the ears of a Christian to tingle! But there is yet more behind; for just as it honours the Son, so doth this doctrine honour the Father. It destroys all his attributes at once: It overturns both his justice, mercy, and truth; yea, it represents the most holy God as worse than the devil, as both more false, more cruel, and more unjust. More false; because the devil, liar as he is, hath never said, "He willeth all men to be saved:" More unjust; because the devil cannot, if he would, be guilty of such injustice as you ascribe to God, when you say that God condemned millions of souls to everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, for continuing in sin, which, for want of that grace he will not give them, they cannot avoid: And more cruel; because that unhappy spirit "seeketh rest and findeth none;" so that his own restless misery is a kind of temptation to him to tempt others. But God resteth in his high and holy place; so that to suppose him, of his own mere motion, of his pure will and pleasure, happy as he is, to doom his creatures, whether they will or no, to endless misery, is to impute such cruelty to him as we cannot impute even to the great enemy of God and man. It is to represent the high God (he that hath ears to hear let him hear!) as more cruel, false, and unjust than the devil!
26. This is the blasphemy clearly contained in the horrible decree+ of predestination! And here I fix my foot. On this I join issue with every assertor of it. You represent God as worse than the devil; more false, more cruel, more unjust. But you say you will prove it by scripture. Hold! What will you prove by Scripture? that God is worse than the devil? I cannot be. Whatever that Scripture proves, it never an prove this; whatever its true meaning be. This cannot be its true meaning. Do you ask, "What is its true meaning then?" If I say, " I know not," you have gained nothing; for there are many scriptures the true sense whereof neither you nor I shall know till death is swallowed up in victory. But this I know, better it were to say it had no sense, than to say it had such a sense as this. It cannot mean, whatever it mean besides, that the God of truth is a liar. Let it mean what it will it cannot mean that the Judge of all the world is unjust. No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works; that is, whatever it prove beside, no scripture can prove predestination.
27. This is the blasphemy for which (however I love the persons who assert it) I abhor the doctrine of predestination, a doctrine, upon the supposition of which, if one could possibly suppose it for a moment, (call it election, reprobation, or what you please, for all comes to the same thing,) one might say to our adversary, the devil, "Thou fool, why dost thou roar about any longer? Thy lying in wait for souls is as needless and useless as our preaching. Hearest thou not, that God hath taken thy work out of thy hands; and that he doeth it much more effectually? Thou, with all thy principalities and powers, canst only so assault that we may resist thee; but He can irresistibly destroy both body and soul in hell! Thou canst only entice; but his unchangeable decrees, to leave thousands of souls in death, compels them to continue in sin, till they drop into everlasting burnings. Thou temptest; He forceth us to be damned; for we cannot resist his will. Thou fool, why goest thou about any longer, seeking whom thou mayest devour? Hearest thou not that God is the devouring lion, the destroyer of souls, the murderer of men" Moloch caused only children to pass though the fire: and that fire was soon quenched; or, the corruptible body being consumed, its torment was at an end; but God, thou are told, by his eternal decree, fixed before they had done good or evil, causes, not only children of a span long, but the parents also, to pass through the fire of hell, the 'fire which never shall be quenched; and the body which is cast thereinto, being now incorruptible and immortal, will be ever consuming and never consumed, but 'the smoke of their torment,' because it is God's good pleasure, 'ascendeth up for ever and ever.'"
28. O how would the enemy of God and man rejoice to hear these things were so! How would he cry aloud and spare not! How would he lift up his voice and say, "To your tents, O Israel! Flee from the face of this God, or ye shall utterly perish! But whither will ye flee? Into heaven? He is there, Down to hell? He is there also. Ye cannot flee from an omnipresent, almighty tyrant. And whether ye flee or stay, I call heaven, his throne, and earth, his footstool, to witness against you, ye shall perish, ye shall die eternally. Sing, O hell, and rejoice, ye that are under the earth! For God, even the mighty God, hath spoken, and devoted to death thousands of souls, form the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof! Here, O death, is they sting! They shall not, cannot escape; for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it. Here, O grave is thy victory Nations yet unborn, or ever they have done good or evil are doomed never to see the light of life, but thou shalt gnaw upon them for ever and ever! Let all those morning stars sing together, who fell with Lucifer, son of the morning! Let all the sons of hell shout for joy! For the decree is past, and who shall disannul it?"
29. Yea, the decree is past; and so it was before the foundation of the world. But what decree? Even this: "I will set before the sons of men 'life and death, blessing cursing.' And the soul that chooseth life shall live, as the soul that chooseth death shall die." This decree whereby "whom God did foreknow, he did predestinate," was indeed from everlasting; this, whereby all who suffer Christ to make them alive are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God," now standeth fast, even as the moon, and as the faithful witnesses in heaven; and when heaven and earth shall pass away, yet this shall not pass away; for it is as unchangeable and eternal as is the being of God that gave it. This decree yields the strongest encouragement to abound in all good works and in all holiness; and it is a well-spring of joy, of happiness also, to our great and endless comfort. This is worthy of God; it is every way consistent with all the perfections of his nature. It gives us the noblest view both of his justice, mercy, and truth. To this agrees the whole scope of the Christian Revelation, as well as all the parts thereof. To this Moses and all the Prophets bear witness, and our blessed Lord and all his Apostles Thus Moses, in the name of his Lord: "I call heaven and earth to record against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that thou and thy seed may live." Thus Ezekiel: choose life, that thou and thy seed may live;"Thus Ezekiel: (To cite one Prophet for all:) "The soul that sinneth, it shall die: The son shall not bear" eternally, "the iniquity of the father. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." (18:20.) Thus our blessed Lord: "If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink." (John 7:37.) Thus his great Apostle, St. Paul: (Acts 17:30:) "God commandeth all men everywhere to repent; -- "all men everywhere;" every man in every place, without any exception either of place or person. Thus St. James: "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him." (James 1:5.) Thus St. Peter: (2 Pet. 3:9:) "The Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." And thus St. John: " If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father; and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:1, 2.)
30. O hear ye this, ye that forget God! Ye cannot charge your death upon him! "`Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?' saith the Lord God." (Ezek. 18:23ff.) "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions where by ye have transgressed, -- for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God. Wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye." "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked. -- Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" (Ezekiel 33:11.)
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White Mountain may be a Mormon, and I will confront him over that when we deal with Mormonism. At least he does understand the God rejecting nature of the Calvinistic system. What is your excuse?
806 posted on 3/1/02 12:24 AM Pacific by fortheDeclaration
I am increasingly convinced that those defenders of the construct do much more damage to the cause of Christ than the papists or the mormons could ever hope to do.
1002 posted on 3/1/02 2:46 PM Pacific by winstonchurchill
White Mountain doesn’t understand the God rejecting nature of anything he believes. Want proof? He is a Mormon! Now, you are perfectly free to align yourself with him in any discussion, but I must wonder at the strange bedfellows you keep. What fellowship has light with darkness? But, this really shouldn’t bother you much as you don’t understand the God rejecting nature of what you believe FTD.
As for you, WC, I have a suspicion that you have been in contact with Don recently. Maybe not; you may not have been that close. It must really bother you, though, that our fellowship of Reformed believers is growing. I know it bothers WM and FTD.To agree to a doctrine like Total Depravity one must believe that all people before they are born again are so evil that they cannot choose the right, cannot seek or ask of God, or exercise faith in Christ. That is contradicted by your everyday experience, and causes me to wonder if you have been born again, since you apparently cannot see the obvious. The mistake of Calvinism as presented here is in making your own private Biblical interpretation, not having authority, and then driving it to extremes.
808 posted on 3/1/02 3:00 AM Pacific by White Mountain
Yes, one must believe that the blood of Christ [must] purge your conscience from dead works; that our hearts [must be] sprinkled from an evil conscience. And one must believe when in the Bible says that there is no one who calls on Your name, who stirs himself up to take hold of You. And one must believe when the Bible says that I was found by those who did not seek me.
The reason that this is contradicted by your everyday experience is because you are still looking at the world with your natural eyes. So, obviously you will see what you perceive as the natural goodness of man. And you will see the same goodness reflected in your "church" and you will conclude that the Calvinist has to be wrong. His reading of scripture must be flawed.
After all, all of us have a "child of light’ in us. We were one with God in some way in eternity past; or so the LDS teach.
But the Calvinist simply laughs. He knows that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. He knows that until you experience being born of God and meet the Lord for the first time that you will never see man for exactly what the Bible says he is. The Calvinist knows that the natural man does not know these things because they are spiritually discerned.
The Calvinist knows that these people, whose minds the god of this age has blinded… lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ… should shine on them, are utterly at the mercy of God. The Calvinist knows that it is God who commanded light to shine out of darkness who has shown in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
So, it is obvious that I don’t see as you see. I have something that you need, desperately! I have a specific authority and a calling. And while I explore the wonderful things that God has ordained for me with His calling, I can assure you that you have never tasted my Jesus. And for this, I am sorry for you. You need to repent of all of Mormonism and you need to burn those books.
Until you do, you are not even equipped for the discussion. You are merely an outsider offering your natural man’s insight into a Spiritual affair. And I would urge all my brethren to not engage him in any other way than other to call him to repent and believe. But, I imagine that will fall on deaf ears for some.
Your day is coming. (Psalm 37:13)
Hey, no problem. It has to do with, you know, that pearls before swine stuff.
"Actually Isa.45:7 is relating to the 'evil' of divine judgement, not 'evil' in that which is contrary to God goodness. In other words, God will judge and discipline those who reject His will. This 'evil' is not His directive will (as Calvinists would state it), but God permits it since He has given man a choice. (Rom.10:21, Ezk,33:11, for the individual christian Heb.12:6) The companion verse is Amos 3:6, "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city and the Lord hath not done it
Thus, this type of 'evil' comes from rejecting God, it is judgement."
The King James says "I...create evil"! What are you talking about? I see no reference to 'judgement' in this verse. If the translators of the King James would have thought that this was in reference to God's judgement, they would have put the english word 'judgement' in the text -i.e. 'I...create evil judgement'.
Then again, I do not subscribe to the (It can't really be saying what it says because that wouldn't fit with my theology so I must change the definition of the words that it uses as to conform with my pre-existing theologies) FTD Hermeneutic. Sorry FTD, the Authorized (By God) Version states that God created evil -plain and simple. I'm gonna take the simple true words of the KJV over your words any day!
Jean
If you would have been following the past two threads, you would have understood that my post had all to do with sarcasm.
KJVOnlyists deny one the use of any other translation than the Only English Bible God Ever Wrote. They are not even allowed to use the existing copies in the original greek/hebrew languages (why, if God wrote the KJV, would we need to go back to such manuscripts, afterall, we are not experts in those languages anyway!). I was just poking a bit of fun at those who hold such a silly view. That this passage claims God created evil would cause me to check this passage in other translations to see that 'evil' probably isn't the best word for todays english reading people. Other translations use 'disaster', 'calamity' or even 'bad times'. So, yes, I knew that the verse was telling us that God creates disaster, and not evil. If you notice, FTD has turned even this meaning on its ear as he tried to pontificate on what he thought the word meant as he brought in new ideas not even remotely found in the passage.
In other words, I was just having a little fun. ^grin^
Jean
Sincere question--do you really think that we don't believe He has appointed our time of death? We believe the same thing.
852 posted on 3/1/02 6:38 AM Pacific by ShadowAce
Yep! Your definition of free will does not allow it. For if you say that the Lord has appointed your death by a violent gunshot, then this would be a violation of your free will. Perhaps you have reduced the ordination of God to a mere observation of the future. Then this would not violate your free will for you would be making all the decisions.
Perhaps you would not mind explaining how the Lord can ordain all the days of your life without violating your "free will."
Impossible...Ecc 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up [that which is] planted;
Just one more page to tear out of the bible
Romans 10:9&10 + Points 2 & 3 of above Arminian construct. There's your answer. Now come back and explain it to me.
886 posted on 3/1/02 9:30 AM Pacific by xzins
- Omitted
- Christ provided a universal opportunity by dying for all men and for every man such that ALL those who turn to him as true repentant believers are saved.
- Man is so depraved that foreplanned divine intervention and preceding divine grace are necessary to bring about faith or any good deed.
Given your definitions, a person must turn to Christ as a repentant believer to be saved (#2). Plus, because a man is so depraved, divine intervention and preceding divine grace are necessary [before] faith or any good deed, even the "good deed" of turning to Christ as a true repentant believer (#3).
Therefore, in order for a man to believe from his heart unto salvation, God must intervene in that man’s life prior to that man exercising saving faith.
If this is correct, then please provide your scriptural evidence for this preceding divine grace. If this is incorrect, then please correct for your beliefs.
I'll just consider the source of that statement.
"Actually Isa.45:7 is relating to the 'evil' of divine judgement, not 'evil' in that which is contrary to God goodness. In other words, God will judge and discipline those who reject His will. This 'evil' is not His directive will (as Calvinists would state it), but God permits it since He has given man a choice. (Rom.10:21, Ezk,33:11, for the individual christian Heb.12:6) The companion verse is Amos 3:6, "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city and the Lord hath not done it Thus, this type of 'evil' comes from rejecting God, it is judgement." The King James says "I...create evil"! What are you talking about? I see no reference to 'judgement' in this verse. If the translators of the King James would have thought that this was in reference to God's judgement, they would have put the english word 'judgement' in the text -i.e. 'I...create evil judgement'.
Hey aren't you the guy who said you are suppose to 'compare scripture with scripture' Right in the chapter is one of the favorite proof texts of the Calvinists, (vs.9:20) showing that the passage (repeated in Romans) is not referring to individuals but to the future of Israel. In fact, the chapter itself is dealing with the prophetic nature of God and how (He alone being God could predict future events) Thus, God would raise up Cyrus (by name) to deliver the Jews from the bondage that they had not yet gone into. Vs 7 refers to the fact that God brings judgements and relief (peace and evil) on nations as a judgement. Context determines meaning, not out of context proof-texting'
Then again, I do not subscribe to the (It can't really be saying what it says because that wouldn't fit with my theology so I must change the definition of the words that it uses as to conform with my pre-existing theologies) FTD Hermeneutic. Sorry FTD, the Authorized (By God) Version states that God created evil -plain and simple. I'm gonna take the simple true words of the KJV over your words any day!
There are three ways to distort scripture, add to it, subtract from it and drop the context! Calvinists love to avoid any context, hence their misinterpretations of Rom.9-11!
God created evil only in the sense that He made sorrow, wretchedness,etc, to be the sure fruits of sin (Scofield study Bible,p.754)However, I am glad 'John' that you are willing to admit that Calvinism makes God the author of sin,
Hence recourse is had to the evasion that this is done only by the permission, and not also by the will of God...That men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God and do not discuss and deliberate on anything but what he has previousley decreed with himself and brings to pass by his secret direction...( Calvins Institutes, Bk1,Chapter 18)Thus, according to Calvin,(and Augustine) every evil act ever commited was done because God wanted it to happen so He would be glorified! Well, glory to God!
Thanks again for mentioning the KJB!
As I told Rnmomof7, White Mountain is not the issue of these threads. Why don't the Calvinists deal with their own God-dishonoring system! Since you cannot deal with the evidence that your system is reduced to making God the author of every evil that has ever occured in history, you now want to change the issue to the fact that Mormons are not saved. We are now dealing with your heresy not the Mormons. If you want to deal with the Mormons start a thread.
As for you, WC, I have a suspicion that you have been in contact with Don recently. Maybe not; you may not have been that close. It must really bother you, though, that our fellowship of Reformed believers is growing. I know it bothers WM and FTD. To agree to a doctrine like Total Depravity one must believe that all people before they are born again are so evil that they cannot choose the right, cannot seek or ask of God, or exercise faith in Christ. That is contradicted by your everyday experience, and causes me to wonder if you have been born again, since you apparently cannot see the obvious. The mistake of Calvinism as presented here is in making your own private Biblical interpretation, not having authority, and then driving it to extremes. 808 posted on 3/1/02 3:00 AM Pacific by White Mountain Yes, one must believe that the blood of Christ [must] purge your conscience from dead works; that our hearts [must be] sprinkled from an evil conscience. And one must believe when in the Bible says that there is no one who calls on Your name, who stirs himself up to take hold of You. And one must believe when the Bible says that I was found by those who did not seek me. The reason that this is contradicted by your everyday experience is because you are still looking at the world with your natural eyes. So, obviously you will see what you perceive as the natural goodness of man. And you will see the same goodness reflected in your "church" and you will conclude that the Calvinist has to be wrong. His reading of scripture must be flawed. After all, all of us have a "child of light’ in us. We were one with God in some way in eternity past; or so the LDS teach. But the Calvinist simply laughs. He knows that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. He knows that until you experience being born of God and meet the Lord for the first time that you will never see man for exactly what the Bible says he is. The Calvinist knows that the natural man does not know these things because they are spiritually discerned.
If that is the case then why bother White Mountain? He can't help it if he hasn't believed, God hasn't chosen him!
The Calvinist knows that these people, whose minds the god of this age has blinded… lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ… should shine on them, are utterly at the mercy of God. The Calvinist knows that it is God who commanded light to shine out of darkness who has shown in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. So, it is obvious that I don’t see as you see. I have something that you need, desperately! I have a specific authority and a calling. And while I explore the wonderful things that God has ordained for me with His calling, I can assure you that you have never tasted my Jesus. And for this, I am sorry for you. You need to repent of all of Mormonism and you need to burn those books.
You keep talking like White Mountain has a choice which according to your system he doesn't! See how Calvinism has to adopt Arminianism verbage to sound scriptural. What a Calvinist should say is
Hey, WhiteMountain, to bad you were not chosen to be one of the elect. I know that God has forordained you to be a Mormon and to go to hell so I will not bother you anymore. I will say that you are a godless wretch that deserves to go to Hell, and it is the secret councils of God that you go and not me! Ha, Ha!-Glory to God! (Lk 18:10-14)
Until you do, you are not even equipped for the discussion. You are merely an outsider offering your natural man’s insight into a Spiritual affair. And I would urge all my brethren to not engage him in any other way than other to call him to repent and believe. But, I imagine that will fall on deaf ears for some.
What does the natural man vs the spiritual man have to do with the logical and philosphical nature of Calvinism? If all the Calvinists can do is fall back onto the 'secret councils' even an unbeliever can see the nonsense of that! Calvin's Institutes are not scripture.
Glory to God ftd......Praise His Holy Name!
Was God glorified by the flood that killed most all living things? Was God glorified by the distruction of Sodom? Was God glorified by the slaughter of the Egyptians? Was God glorified as a result of the Egyptian army being drowned?
Exd 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] my name for ever, and this [is] my memorial unto all generations.
Exd 9:16 And in very deed for this [cause] have I raised thee up, for to shew [in] thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
No, according to your system White Mountain does not have a choice. You would rather fight with Calvinist than share the gospel with a mormon. According to your system, you have made yourself god over WM and determined that he is not fit for salvation.
And, once again you prove that you don't have the foggiest notion of what "our system" is. See, you expect us to stay in our ftd ordained boxes, and heaven help us if we break out!
We plead with wm to repent and turn to the Christ of the Bible. We know how important that choice is. We know that his eternal destiny is contingent upon his free-will choice of Christ. We don't have to use "Arminian" language, Calvinists have been pleading with men to turn to Christ since before te days of the Apostle Paul. Remember, we believe all of Scripture. What differentiates us from you is that we can believe all of Scripture even if there are large portions that stick in your craw.
(BTW, we just returned from seeing "We Were Soldiers" at the theater. Awesome flick! I cried several times when I read the book, and I cried today as I saw the magnificent sacrifice of true American patriots portrayed in such a manner.)
1091 posted on 3/2/02 5:50 PM Eastern by CCWoody
Amen to that brother..some people must not be thought worthy of the gospel
ShallMaking peace, and creating evil. By the words "light" and "darkness" he describes metaphorically not only peace and war; but adverse and prosperous events of any kind; and he extends the word peace, according to the custom of Hebrew writers, to all success and prosperity. This is made abundantly clear by the contrast; for he contrasts "peace" not only with war, but with adverse events of every sort. Fanatics torture this word evil, as if God were the author of evil, that is, of sin; but it is very obvious how ridiculously they abuse this passage of the Prophet. This is sufficiently explained by the contrast, the parts of which must agree with each other; for he contrasts "peace" with "evil," that is, with afflictions, wars, and other adverse occurrences. If he contrasted "righteousness" with "evil," there would be some plausibility in their reasonings, but this is a manifest contrast of things that are opposite to each other. Consequently, we ought not to reject the ordinary distinction, that God is the author of the "evil" of punishment, but not of the "evil" of guilt.
Hey Jean, you should check with 'Jean's' Commentaries before making rash statements!
It is on my must see list
RnMomof7 and Jerry_M mistakenly assert that I argue against God's sovereignty in the area of Creation. That is not the case. Yes, point granted that God created Hitler and Stalin. But in the Calvinist construct as explained yesterday by OrthodoxPresbyterian, because God created evil, God also directed the actions of Stalin and Hitler.
Therefore, according to the Calvinists, God is also responsible for the following:
And since, in the Calvinist view, God created all of those, we have no ability to change them and no right to complain or campaign against them. And this is far from an exhaustive list. One more thing, however, that, in the Calvinist construct, Calvinists are now bound to acknowledge:
We have established Calvinist pride. By their own words the Calvinists have been tried and convicted. No manner of Clintonesque explaining away can deny it. Yet, according to Jerry_M "One word, it doesn't bother us one wit if you dance around saying "pride, Pride, PRIDE."
Jerry further states: "Thus, we can confidently state that we have access to all the answers."
2,000 years of bitter church history. Thousands perhaps millions reading the same scriptures and coming to different conclusions, and yet our Calvinist friends here on FreeRepublic "have all the answers."
We are also now able to establish the differing views on "grace."
The Wesleyan-Arminian view of grace:
The grace or love of God, whence cometh our salvation, is FREE IN ALL, and FREE FOR ALL.
The Calvinist (and Borg) view of grace: Resistance is futile.
Now, given these established facts and the basic frame work of "The Calvinist Construct" and the "Five Basic Arminian Objections to Calvinism" so ably presented by xzins, we can move on.
Next discussion topic please.
Did God predestine the works of Hitler by His non action?
Did God's non intervention in that election cause Bill Clinton to be president?
(Similar post #1098 about Hitler.)
Perhaps you are not a Calvinist just yet. God does not predestine by non-action. According to Calvinism as presented here, the god they propose predetermined all our choices before the foundation of the world -- all our election votes, all of Adolf Hitler's choices, all of Bill Clinton's choices, and then seeks to pin the blame on those he does not choose so they will go to hell. This is revolting theology, and we keep saying so!
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