Posted on 02/18/2002 8:54:15 PM PST by rwfromkansas
Why I Believe Predestination
Okay, I did not used to believe predestination. I used to believe free will and did not know any better. When I first heard of predestination, I was horrified and actually angry. It seemed like it made God into some horrible monster. After a lot of study though, I had to change my mind and I now embrace predestination, often resulting in having to defend it to shocked Christian friends. Hopefully, this defense will help others understand my thinking.
First, if free will is accurate, why hasn’t an Almighty God been able to convince everyone to come and have eternal life if he wants everyone to be saved? Doesn’t Scripture say God’s will is accomplished? I think it does. If I am correct on this, predestination is the only logical position because Arminians would make God into a liar when he says he wants to save "all," yet he is too weak to do so (in the free will view of things). Let’s look at some examples of what the Bible says about God’s power:
Ps 115:3
3 But our God is in heaven; he does whatever He pleases.
Rom 9:19
19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"
**Romans 9 is a big verse and we will be coming back to this later....
Luke 10:21
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
And God did it only because "it seemed good in [His] sight." The fact that God can reveal and hide the truth from people indicates his sovereignty to me and indicates that he has ultimate dominion over what occurs and his will is what gets done.
Ps 135:5-6
5 For I know that the LORD is great, and our Lord is above all gods.
6 Whatever the LORD pleases He does, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deep places.
Exod 7:3
3 "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
It should be noted here that God says He will harden Pharaoh’s heart himself! Scripture also says later simply that Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, however obviously it was because of God as the LORD has said here. I think that is interesting because in my view, it shows that if one did not read the verse above first, they would think Pharaoh just simply hardened his heart by himself. I think we have similar thinking in the New Testament where people assume we choose God by ourselves since that is what it looks like when you read it in a non-close manner and don’t look at the big picture of things. I know I made that mistake.
1 Sam 2:6-9
6 "The LORD kills and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and brings up.
7 The LORD makes poor and makes rich; he brings low and lifts up.
8 He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the beggar from the ash heap, to set them among princes and make them inherit the throne of glory. "For the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and He has set the world upon them.
9 He will guard the feet of His saints, but the wicked shall be silent in darkness. "For by strength no man shall prevail.
So here it says that God gives and takes life, changes the earthly welfare of people, even puts people into governmental power! Yes, God is powerful and I don’t see any hint of him not being able to do whatever he pleases. Remember above where it said almost exactly "he does whatever he pleases." God gets his will accomplished and it covers EVERYTHING.
Acts 4:27-28
27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together
28 "to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.
Dan 4:35
35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; he does according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand or say to Him, "What have You done?"
God does his will in heaven and earth! NOBODY can restrain his hand. This is a pretty powerful passage and a humbling one....
Jer 32:27
27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?
Gen 18:14
14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
God himself says that there is NOTHING too hard for him. Now, how can this be if there is free will, God wants all to be saved, yet not everyone is? I think the solution is then that not everyone was meant to be and the fact man is sinful makes that case stronger. I will talk about that later.
Job 42:2
2 "I know that You can do everything, and that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.
NO purpose of God’s can be kept from being realized. When God wants to do something, it gets done!
Philippians 2:13 tells us: "It is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."
God works in us to fulfill his will! Ultimately, it is his will that is accomplished!
I think the above Scriptures are plenty to demonstrate the power of God. God is King and when he wills something, it will be accomplished. There is a reason why the NT always talks about Christ purchasing salvation or his death being a ransom and I haven’t at least yet found something where anyone writes saying "and the cross made it possible that I could have life and I chose him."......I think God willed something specific behind the death of Christ. If there was free will instead of predestination, God’s will was not accomplished to save everyone. Therefore, I think God had to will to save only a lot of people, not everyone. I believe he had to have predestined certain people to be saved or the Cross would well, end up being a failure since not everyone has come like God intended (if free will would be right). Next, I will talk about the sinful nature of man and ask how people can come to Christ when they hate him. I will conclude this little discussion with some Scriptural support for predestination. So.....you see I am first coming here trying to address the nature of God and then the nature of man which raises questions as to how we can even have free will....and then directly address predestination specifically. The issues of God’s sovereignty and the nature of people is ultimately what underlies predestination so I am addressing them first and tying them to predestination.
What is the nature of man? Well, people DID have free will at one time. We had a completely free will at the Garden of Eden before Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. However, after that, the Bible says our will is enslaved. Once we believe in Christ, we no longer are enslaved to sin, though we still struggle with it. But, natural man (unsaved people) IS enslaved to sin and can’t know God. Let’s look at Scripture on this topic.
1 Cor 1:18-24
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
Now, in this passage, it says that the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing (the unsaved). In the last verse, it speaks of those who God has "called" as not being caught up in the foolishness and instead coming to God and recognizing the Gospel. So here we see the cross is not a message the world loves and people hate it unless God "calls" them....in this passage calling refers to God’s action of bringing someone to himself and since he does not do this with everyone, predestination is implied I think.
1 Cor 2:11-14
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man WITHOUT the Spirit DOES NOT ACCEPT the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are FOOLISHNESS to him, and he CANNOT UNDERSTAND THEM, because they are spiritually discerned.
In this verse, we see a person without the Spirit does not accept and can’t understand God’s truth of the Gospel. Thus, the Spirit has to do its work to make someone recognize this truth and he works on only some people and logic would dictate I think that these people would be the predestined ones since I don’t know what alternative solution there can be.
Rom 6:20-23
20 When you were SLAVES to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.
21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in DEATH!
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You see here, when one is not saved, they are slaves to sin! Their enslavement results in death, not just physical, but spiritual. Remember the Garden of Eden when God said Adam and Eve would die if they ate the fruit? Well, they did not die, did they? Actually.....they did not die physically, BUT in reality, they did die spiritually. They became estranged from God after the Fall and so did all of the human race. We all inherited Adam’s sin.
Col 2:13-14
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
We were DEAD in our sins. How can a dead man resurrect himself? It is only by the grace of God and His working in us that we can and we can’t even initiate it since we are dead. When we are saved, he brings us back to life.
Gal 5:17
17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.
The fleshly sinful nature is CONTARY to the spirit. They are at war, not at harmony. How is it possible for a dead, enslaved man to come to faith unless the Spirit makes the first move and actually changes him (converts him) FIRST before the person makes a profession of faith himself? Since God has not sent the Spirit to convert everyone, everyone was not intended to be saved and have a new nature placed in them.
Rom 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
The mind of the unsaved is against God and can’t even be subject to God’s law. He can’t know God by his own action. God again must do something to ensure his salvation if he wants him saved.
Now, we have seen God is sovereign and all-powerful. We have seen he does what he wishes and accomplishes his will. We have seen all people are infected with the sin of Adam and Eve and how we hate God and can’t even know him in our state of being when we are not saved. Since this is the case, God has chosen to do something about it since well, obviously some are saved! If he did not, nobody would be saved since our nature is to hate God. God could not have even just made salvation possible for all on the Cross since nobody would come due to our natures. Therefore, I now turn to evidence that directly addresses predestination in Scripture. I believe this is what God did to solve the problem of our depravity and his desire to save people on the cross. I believe the Cross was meant to save a group of people, not just be there for everyone in a possibility, for Scripture refers to the Cross as accomplishing something all the time. Of course, predestination does not mean we aren’t to evangelize, for the Gospel is how God works in people’s hearts to save those he wants to save, the predestined.
Where do I get the idea God has people selected? Well, here are some examples:
John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;"
This is Jesus saying that every single person God wants and draws to Christ WILL come to Him and accept Christ. God gives people to Christ and that is significant because it shows not everyone has been selected by God to be given to Christ or we would all be saved since it says "all....the father gives me shall come...." It also shows that God does take a very active role in our salvation...in fact, the lead role by taking charge and giving us to Christ.
John 6:39-40
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
That verse is a parallelism, showing that the ones that believe Jesus is the Son of God are also the ones that God GIVES Jesus. God has given a people to Christ to be his followers.
John 6:44
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
This verse is big and goes back to the sinful nature of man also. NOBODY can come to Christ (Jesus is speaking here, by the way) unless the Father draws him! We are filthy sinners in our natural state and can’t come and that is why this is so. Jesus makes it clear here GOD DRAWS US...we don’t just come and get saved. It is God’s will exercised which results in our salvation. Everyone the father gives Christ will come; THEY HAVE NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER. I think that is a really important point here..... Who gets drawn? Well, I would argue a predestined people. Otherwise, God is just drawing people without a set purpose, which is not what he does. He always has a systematic purpose for things and the Cross itself was a systematic thing. It was all planned out. Scripture shows that in passages I already showed earlier.
Rev 17:8
8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Names are put in the book of life from the beginning of time, "the foundation of the world." This supports predestination because God wrote names of some people and ignored the names of others. Now, some say, "God predestined based on the foreknowledge of God." While I don’t argue with this (one passage even says, "predestinated according to the foreknowledge of God" in the NT), the interpretation is wrong. The Bible does not say we are predestined because God foresaw that we would accept him (this is what most think of when they see "foreknowledge"). 1 Pet 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied." Now, the verse I just quoted is what I am talking about. Nobody can truly bring out of this a view that God predestined as a result of our coming to him. First, you can’t take that from the text since that is taking a lot of liberty with a very narrow phrase "elect according to the foreknowledge". Second, left to free will, we would all reject God (remember above where we are all enslaved to sin in our natural state). Third, foreknowledge, by necessity, IMPLIES GOD’S ORDAINING OF ACTIONS AND EVENTS. After all, for one thing, unless God ordained who would be saved, he would not be able to see who would come to him anyway since otherwise there would be no definite events and well, also nobody would come due to their rebellious nature. He would only have chaos and nothing to see.
Let me point out a non-Calvinist Biblical dictionary section on 1 Peter 1:2:
FOREKNOW; FOREKNOWLEDGE
"In this verse the term foreknowledge is an expansion of the idea of God's "counsel" or plan, regarding it as an intelligent prearrangement, the idea of foreknowledge being assimilated to that of foreordination. The same idea is found in <1 Pet 1:20>. Here the apostle speaks of Christ as a lamb "foreordained" by God before the foundation of the world. The Greek verb proegnosmenou, meaning literally, "foreknown" (as in the Revised Version (British and American)) is translated "foreordained" in the King James Version. It is evidently God's foreordination of Jesus as Saviour which Peter has in mind. Also in <1 Pet 1:2> those to whom the apostle is writing are characterized as "elect according to the foreknowledge (prognosis) of God," where the election is based on the "foreknowledge." By the prognosis or foreknowledge, however, far more is meant than prescience. It has the idea of a purpose which determines the course of the Divine procedure. If it meant simply prevision of faith or love or any quality in the objects of the election, Peter would not only flatly contradict Paul <Rom 9:11; Eph 1:3-4; 2 Tim 1:9>; but also such a rendering would conflict with the context of this passage, because the objects of election are chosen "unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of .... Christ," so that their new obedience and relation to Christ are determined by their election by God, which election springs from a "foreknowledge" which therefore cannot mean a mere prescience."
(from International Standard Bible Encylopaedia)
Thus, this really supports my position, (even the non-Calvinist Bible Dictionary admits foreknowledge needs God’s ordaining of something to go along with it anyway) that God sent Christ to die for specific people and the Holy Spirit converts those predestined when they hear the Gospel.
John 15:16
16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
Acts 13:48
48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been APPOINTED to eternal life believed.
Romans 8:29, 30, "For whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son...moreover whom he did predestine them he also called, them he called, these he also justified, these he justified, these he also glorified."
Rom 9:8-26
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son."
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."
13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, and her beloved, who was not beloved."
26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' there they shall be called sons of the living God."
Okay, here it speaks of predestination (election) in the parenthesis for those not yet even born! Paul goes on to say here that there is no unrighteousness with God for selecting one person over another for salvation and goes on to quote the OT where God said he would have mercy on whom he would have mercy and harden whom he will. Then Paul knows someone will cry out and say, "How can God condemn me when it is his will that has damned me!?" Well, Paul comes back and asks how one can talk back to God when the Potter made us, the clay to fulfill his purposes. He goes on to say God created vessels (people) for honor and dishonor.
Ephesians 1:5 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, having predestined us to adoption as children by Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will"
11: "In whom we also have obtained an inheritance being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will."
I Thessalonians 1:4, "Remember without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love and patience of hope in Jesus Christ in the sight of God and our Father; knowing brethren beloved, you election with God."
This verse speaks of remembering our election (predestination). The Bible doesn’t view it as a horrid and cruel thing of God. The writers recognized it as a wonderful thing and something that we, as Christians, should rejoice at. PRAISE GOD THAT HE HAS SAVED ME WHEN I KNOW WITHOUT HIM I WOULD HAVE REFUSED TO HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH HIM!!!!!!!
2 Thessalonians 2:13, "But we are bound to give thanks always for you to God, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."
"You made me trust in You." (Psalm 22:9)
Here in the Psalms we see the belief that God MADE someone trust in him. God didn’t just let some free will lead them wherever.....he actually made them come and trust in Him. What a radical concept and so foreign to what we are used to thinking!
John 17:1-3:
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
God has given Christ authority over all flesh and ordained that He should give eternal life "to as many" as God gave him. Not more, not less....but "to as many" as God wanted saved.
I hope this helps you to understand more of my beliefs and I hope it has made you think. I want to make sure you remember how Scripture says we are dead in sin before we are saved and it is something to ponder how one can be saved if this is true unless God predestined you to be saved and passed over someone else. It seems really harsh of God and it almost makes God seem mean and evil to save some, yet not try to save others. But, I must remember Paul in Romans 9, when he said who are we to judge God. I must remember that predestination is "for the good pleasure of His will" and it isn’t all about me. God does it this way because he wants to. I can’t judge God for it, though sometimes I would like to do so. God knows more than I can ever imagine about what is true, about what is right and God is more holy than even one little cell of my body. God is more perfect than the most perfect creation of man by a million miles and I must remember I am not God.....I am just a creature he made to bring him glory and yet I must bow my knees in thanksgiving that he gave me life, I must bow my knees in thanksgiving for saving me of all the people when I would blaspheme his name in my old ways! Praise be to his Holy name. I must remember also that if God was really fair, I would be in hell right now. His grace in choosing me is more than I can ever understand. His grace in choosing you is great indeed. Thank God for his love shown to you. Even if you don’t believe predestination after reading this, thank God for saving you. Thank God for his mercy and grace. Thank God that he raised you out of the pit and mire of your former self and changed you to love him and begin to show your love to others. Predestination might not be fair, but it sure is a lot better than free will, since everyone would have to reject God by their sinful nature, in my reading of Scripture.
Often there is an analogy to Jesus as a life raft that we can just grab on to in order to save ourselves. I believe that to be a wrong analogy since well, an unsaved person is not drowning spiritually, he is already dead according to Scripture. So, here is my version of this analogy and what I consider the Gospel: When I lay dead on the bottom of a turbulent sea, God took pity and only out of his mercy alone, sent his Son Jesus down to me. Jesus dove to the bottom of the lake and resurrected me. I could not have done anything....I was dead spiritually. I was a goner and could not have came back to life at all unless Jesus made me. On that bottom of the lake, he gave me life and showered me with his loving arms, taking me to the top of the lake and bringing me to safety. I then arose, full of the new life. Jesus was not a life raft that I grabbed onto, he was a doctor who came TO ME and gave me life. I am forever thankful.
God bless you and may you trust in him and find peace whether you end up believing predestination or not.
I will leave you with a quote about predestination:
"Let us then ascribe the whole work of grace to the pleasure of God's Will. God did not choose us because we were worthy, but by choosing us He makes us worthy." Thomas Watson
Yeah, I know. A accept!
Could you please post the quotes where anyone on this board has made such an assertion in their argument against Calvinism?
I've never heard such a thing in my life...but I must admit I haven't read all the posts on this board.
It couldn't be you are distoring and exagerating another's position in order to find something you feel comfortable arguing against? Could it?
Stop making the Almighty into some begging dog.
Saying it is his EFFECTUAL AND NEVER-FAILING WILL TO SAVE EVERYONE MAKES HIM A FAILURE IF YOU ARE RIGHT AND THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE FREAKING IOTA OF EVIDENCE TO SUGGEST SOME MYTHICAL DESIRE FOR MAN TO HAVE A FREE WILL IS MORE IMPORTANT....IF THERE WAS, IT WOULD BE SPELLED OUT CLEAR AS DAY IN SCRIPTURE!!!! Stop making the Almighty into some begging dog.
Yeah, it does; and Total Depravity as well. Opps!
Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Again, more free-will actions. Doesn't say "But Noah was predestined to behave righteously toward God".
Nor does it say that due to Noah's vaunted free will he actually did behave righteously toward God. Grace--receiving specifically without regard to merit on the part of the receipient. But, please don't stop. You are obviously having a gay old time.
Ephesians 1--God chose us
Yes!--wouldn't have had quite the glorifying effect though. Next question!
You too!
Who said it is His "EFFECTUAL AND NEVER-FAILING WILL"???
Cite the post and show the quote.
Of course you cannot do so...because nobody ever said such a thing.
The idea that a "desire" for something must be interpreted as "EFFECTUAL AND NEVER-FAILING WILL" defies any normal reading of scripture.
It seems when Calvinists are unable to respond to those who challange them.....they resort to assigning them positions which they feel most comfortable arguing against.
Stop making the Almighty into some begging dog.
LOL! Now God actually desiring people trust and love Him makes Him a "begging dog"!
How silly.
This is exactly what I was refering to above.
1 Tim. 2:4--does it mean each and every single person without exception... If this is your position, then you are guilty of it. Opps! Go back and read the post again.
1 Timothy 2:4 ...Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
In my daily reading Bible this is translated as desire. Now, would you suggest that God cannot have even His desires? Go back and read my #556.
Really? Well, then, if a man 'responds' to a Free Offer of the gospel, is he responding from free will or simply acting out his 'programming' by God who 'elected' him? You see, if the man has no choice in the matter, and according to Attorney John Calvin, he doesn't, what does his response mean? Nothing. He was 'elected'. No choice. He was going to receive the 'Free Offer' and he was going to accept it all along. Meaningless.
Your post #456 was incoherent. Do you just cut and paste this stuff from some Calvinist website? If so, please try some editing. The convoluted mish-mash makes no real sense, except that it just claims the opposite of what the verses quoted say. Justification for Calvinism, of course. Scriptually incorrect, of course.
Clearly, God intended for all men (mankind) to be saved and that was 'predestined' by Him, but no individual was predestined for salvation, except John the Baptist, Moses, Abraham, the apostles, etc.
An omnipotent God chooses to give us free will. We choose evil or good. We choose Christ or the world. God moves in our lives, obviously, the world and all that are in it is His, but out of his divine mercy he gives us the choice of salvation through Christ and when we choose Him, the angels rejoice and our names are written in the Book of Life. Of course, the book of Revelation also warns that anyone who adds or takes away from scripture will have his name removed from the Book of Life, so with all the false prophets over the years, it's safe to assume that some names may have been removed from the Book of Life. But, how could that be? Did God change His mind? If someone were 'elected'., how did he become 'un-elected'? An omnipotent God does control the world but he allows for much free will in many areas of human life. We can accept Christ, turn away from Him some years later and lose our salvation. There is no 'ticket' to heaven, punched by God before time began. We are not 'elected', only called. When called, we are chosen if we accept the gift of life, salvation through Christ.
You see, your doctrine doesn't hold up well.
You take predestination to some absurd extreme that negates human connection with God, making us doomed or 'elected' with no choice. As many have asked; why did Christ die on the cross for me if my 'election' to heaven was already assured? This theory of your beloved Calvin is inconsistent with scripture and not worth the argument.
Please stop leveling false accusations.
Please stop promoting false doctrine.
Except God has indeed shown favoritism hasn't He?
He chose to save Noah and his family out of the flood,He chose Lot out of Sodom..He Chose Abraham to become a great nation,He choose Jacob over Essau,He chose the people that would come from them ..Israel ..over all the other nations..to be the line from which the Savior would be born..He chose David to be the Kingly line over all the other lines..He chose a girl named Mary to mother the savior..
He chose to kill all the life on the earth, He chose to harden the heart of the Pharaoh, He chose to murder the males infants in Egypt, He chose to drown the army of Egypt.
I could go on but I believe you get my point..God is in charge. Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Those scriptures speak to Gods grace now being available to all nations and all people..no longer restricted to the Jews.
The Bible does teach predestination, but not the kind that you teach. The Bible does not teach that God has decided ahead of time who will be saved and who will be lost. As I've pointed out, we're free, moral agents with the capacity to accept - or reject - God's commandments.
'Predestination' or foreordination is what God did before the world began, as He determined to save man from sin through the sacrifice of His own Son. Those who answer His call through the gospel experience the blessings of that plan now in Christ Jesus. Is that too easy for you?
You are the one that is being smug and sarcastic but I will let it pass in christian fellowship
I am providing a like to another freeper post on predestination that deals with it far better than I could..
Romans 2:11:"For God does not show favoritism".
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
2 Thess. 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
John 6 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 17 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
John 15; 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Acts 13 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
1 Cor.14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Your doctrine that you so smugly gloat about and the scripture you totally twist to suit your false doctrine is misleading the unsaved with a foolish and dangerous notion that if you are predestined to hell, why listen to scripture and if you are predestined to heaven, why care what you do? It totally removes Gods grace from mankind, making us mere pieces on a chessboard which is glaringly at odds with not only the scripture itself, but the love and grace of God that all of scripture shows and you, smug in your little Calvinist cocoon, amen-ing each other and feeling, well, so 'elect', I'm surprised you can even bear to mingle with the rest of the 'unelect'.
The words "free will" do not appear in scripture..yet in the NT various forms of the word elect or election appear 47 times. My friend election does not "eliminate" Gods grace,it focuses on it.....it makes man totally dependant on it. Salvation is all of God's grace. We are all badly flawed sinful creatures we are, as the Old Testament , tells us like filthy rags before a Holy God. The wonder is that He has choosen to save any of us by His grace. I have never been "smug" .I have nothing to be "smug " about . That is your own bias talking . You write "I'msurprised you can even bear to mingle with the rest of the 'unelect'
My first thought was that you doubt your own salvation. but the truth is no one except God knows who is His. I certainly do not know. It is the responsibility of all of us to present the gospel and then to allow the grace of God to make a heart of stone into a heart of flesh..
I've spent far more time on this futile thread than I intended and I don't have the time to engage in the bible study you obviously need but I urge you and your like-minded friends that have contributed to the thread to open your eyes and your bible and see the truth of the scripture you so freely quote while misconstruing the meanings and the intent of God's plan for his creation.
Yes, friend, I'm angry when I see false teachers like the Calvinists on this thread mislead the unsaved while posing as knowledgable and wise teachers. You are no more than blind guides and do much harm and upon reflection, I'm probably more fearful of the spiritual harm you're doing with your false, man-made doctrine that you defend so vehemently than I am angry, although the smugness and typical 'holier-than-thou' attitude demonstrated here is also past my normal tolerance for self-congratulation based on ignorance and foolishness, posing as wisdom.
You and the like-minded folks on the thread have embraced a religious doctrine that is patently false, a doctrine of exclusion, which is opposed to scripture and the clear evidence of God's grace and His plan for all of mankind's salvation through Christ. Yes, despite all the self-righteous, scripture-twisting protestations you've raised, we do have free will to accept or reject salvation through Christ. God's plan is clear, you folks deny it and mangle His Word to fit your man-made doctrine and to be part of the 'elect'. It's sad, frustrating and probably ultimately futile to argue with those who embrace cult-like doctrines. You're uncomfortably close to the Jehovah's Witnesses and their '144,000' nonsense. Not the religious company I would prefer to be in.
I hope you'll read some of the scriptures I've given you here, not subjecting them first to the prism of your false doctrine or to what your religious leaders tell you they mean, but open your heart and mind to God's Word as he intended it to be read. There is always hope.
Jim you need to ask God why you are so angry with the thought that He is sovereign in all things..
Utterly false! If God intended for all men to be saved, then why aren't all men saved? My post #556 clearly shows just how horribly false your position really is.
For you will tell me that this passage [1 Tim. 2:4] does directly instruct us to pray for God to effectually accomplish nothing less than the actual salvific redemption of "All men" without exception, every single individual member of the human race. But, in addition to asserting that God deliberately Wills the Salvation of every man without exception, and that His will is thus billions of times Overthrown, to assert what you do is very nearly to risk the Anathema in pursuit of defeating Calvinism!! For does He not tell us in the Revelation of Christ unto John:
Revelation 22:18-19 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.And what also has He told us in Revelation, than the certainty that NOT "All Men without Exception" shall be saved?
Revelation 13:7-8 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
1 Timothy 2:4 ...Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
In my daily reading Bible this is translated as desire. Now, would you suggest that God cannot have even His desires?
Are you suggesting that everything that happens in the universe, including the fall in the Garden of Eden, Lucifer's rebellion, the holocaust, abortion etc. MUST be what God desires..OTHERWISE they could not occur?
Is it your position that God could not give His creations free will if it means they could possibly do anything contrary to His desire?
Of course not.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Your reading of scripture is laughably absurd. The elect are called and they are chosen. They also accept the gift of eternal life, but they/we are not in the drivers seat.
1 Tim. 2:4--does it mean each and every single person without exception... If this is your position, then you are guilty of it. Opps! Go back and read the post again.
Oh no! You repeated my own argument back to me!
I'm speechless.:)
Seriously..the idea that this scripture could mean "each and every single person without exception" has nothing to do with what I was addressing. "Opps! Go back and read the post again."
Would you be suggesting that anything--from the largest events in history down to the smallest event--is outside the will of God?
BTW, you are misusing the word desire; horribly.
No, then, I was not exaggerating Jim's position. Now, answer my question. Does the all in 1 Tim. 2:4 mean each and every single person without exception?
He chose to save Noah and his family out of the flood...
God also had Noah preach repentance and warn people before hand......
Is it your belief that this was all done in pretense and none of these people could really be saved because God already decided He was going to drown them all...and it wouldn't make any difference.
If so, then it makes God and Noah look like fakes...pretending to give people the opportunity to be saved when in fact there was no real hope for them.
He chose Lot out of Sodom....
He also gave some of Lot's relatives the opportunity to escape out of Sodom also...but they didn't...so the above applies here as well.
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