The Next Reformation? 9.5 Thesis Posted on 'Church Door'!

The Prophecy Reformation Institute ^ | 2001 | John Noe

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

9.5 Theses for the Next Reformation

Modern-day Reformers Post Document on 'Church Door'

We the undersigned, out of love for the truth and a desire to see all Christians honor and acknowledge all that God has revealed in his Word, submit these 9.5 Theses for your prayerful evaluation and participation with us in calling for further reform. May these theses be the spark that ignites the next Reformation of Christianity.

1. Everything Jesus said would happen, happened exactly as and when He said it would-within the lifetime of his contemporaries.

2. Everything every New Testament writer expected to happen, happened exactly as and when they expected it would-within their lifetime-as they were guided into all truth and told the things that were to come by the Holy Spirit (Jn. 16:13).

3. Scholars across a broad spectrum are in general agreement that this is exactly how every NT writer and the early Church understood Jesus' words. If they were wrong on something this important, how can we trust them to have conveyed other aspects of the faith accurately, such as the requirements for salvation?

4. No inspired NT writer, writing twenty or more years later, ever corrected their Holy-Spirit-guided understanding and fulfillment expectations (Jn. 16:13). Neither should we. Instead, they intensified their language as the "appointed time of the end" (Dan. 12:4; Hab. 2:3) drew near-from Jesus' "this generation" (Mat. 24:34), to Peter's "the end of all things is at hand" and "for it is time for judgment to begin" (1 Pet. 4:7, 17), and John's "this is the last hour . . . . it is the last hour" (1 Jn. 2:18).

5. Partial fulfillment is not satisfactory. 3 out of 5, 7 out of 10, etc., won't work. Partial does not pass the test of a true prophet (Deut. 18:18-22). Again, Jesus time-restricted all of his end-time predictions to occur within the 1st-century time frame.

6. God is faithful (2 Pet. 3:9) and "not a man that he should lie" (Num. 23:19). Faithfulness means not only doing what was promised, but also doing it when it was promised.

7. 1st-century, fulfillment expectations were the correct ones and everything happened, right on time-no gaps, no gimmicks, no interruptions, no postponements, no delays, no exegetical gymnastics, and no changing the meaning of commonly used and normally understood words. Such manipulative devices have only given liberals and skeptics a foothold to discredit Christ's Deity and the inerrancy of Scripture.

8. What needs adjusting is our understanding of both the time and nature of fulfillment, and not manipulation of the time factor to conform to our popular, futuristic, and delay expectations.

9. The kingdom of God was the central teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ, is a present but greatly under-realized reality, and must again become the central teaching of his Church.

9.5. We have been guilty of proclaiming a half-truth-a partially delivered faith to the world and to fellow Christians. We must repent and earnestly "contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3). If Christianity has been as effective as it has by proclaiming that Jesus Christ, the Messiah, came, died for our sins, bodily arose from the dead, and ascended to Heaven "at just the right time" (Rom. 5:6; Dan. 9:24-27), how much more effective might it be if we started preaching, teaching, and practicing the whole truth-i.e., a faith in which everything else also happened "at just the right time," exactly as and when Jesus said it would and every NT writer expected (Jn. 16:13). Dare we continue to settle for less?

Surely today, the words of Martin Luther, as he stood in defense before the Diet of Worms in 1521, are still applicable and compelling for the "always reforming" Church:
"Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures . . . and my conscience is captive to the Word of God . . . . I cannot do otherwise. "

Original Signatories

John Noe, President Prophecy Reformation Institute Indianapolis, Indiana Rick Chromey, Professor of Christian Education Saint Louis Christian College Florissant, Missouri
Edward E. Stevens, President International Preterist Association Bradford, Pennsylvania
Danny Griffin, President Carolina Christian Ministries Charlotte, North Carolina
John Anderson, President Lighthouse World Ministries Sparta, North Carolina
Walter C. Hibbard, Former Founder & Chairman Great Christian Books, Inc. Newark, Delaware
Mike Lightfoot, Pastor Father's House Fellowship Clarkston, Washington
Terry Siverd, Minister Cortland Church of Christ Cortland, Ohio
Kenneth J. Davies, President Grace Ministries Lemon Grove, California
Joseph Lewis, Pastor Fulfilled Bible Fellowship Delair, New Jersey
Jerry Wayne Bernard, Vice President Scripture Research, Inc. Riverside, California
Arthur J. Melanson, President Joy of the Lord Ministry Audubon, New Jersey
Jerry Hester, Pastor Dominion Community Church Greer, South Carolina
Terry M. Hall, Minister Miami Valley Church Beavercreek, Ohio
Gene Fadeley, President Anchor Publishing Charlotte, North Carolina
Rod Moyses, Manager M2ktalk.Com, (internet-satellite radio networks) Fresno, California
Stan Newton, Pastor Missionary to Bulgaria Seattle, Washington
Timothy R. King, Pastor Central Baptist Church Grand Junction, Colorado
Walter Koch, Pastor Emanuel Centro Christiano El Monte, California
Jack C. Scott, Jr., Minister Glacier View Church Kalispell, Montana
A. Wilson Phillips, Pastor Abundant Life Covenant Church Springfield, Missouri
Thomas A. Price, Jr., Pastor Sherman Community Church Sherman, New York
Don K. Preston, Minister Ardmore Church of Christ Ardmore, Oklahoma
David Curtis, Pastor Berean Bible Church Cheasapeake, Virginia
Jessie E. Mills, Jr., Minister Central Church of Christ Bonifay, Florida
Bud Fleisher, Host/Producer "Let's Talk Religion" (radio program) Clearwater, Florida
Ron Smith, President Friendship In Action (mission work in Mexico) Mission,
Texas Bill Clark Brumbaugh, Host Proactive News (nat'l syndicated radio program) Bozeman, Montana
James R. Hopkins, Minister Daleville Church of Christ Daleville, Alabama
William Bell, Minister Raines Road Church of Christ Memphis, Tennessee

Published by the Prophecy Reformation Institute: a conservative, evangelical ministry dedicated to continuing the Reformation into the field of eschatology-end-time Bible prophecy, and the International Preterist Association.

Books for the Next Reformation
· Chilton, David. "The Days of Vengeance." Ft. Worth, TX.: Dominion Press, 1987.
· DeMar, Gary, "Last Days Madness: Obsession of the Modern Church." Atlanta, GA.: American Vision, 3rd ed., 1997.
· *________. "End Times Fiction: A Biblical Consideration of the Left Behind Theology." Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 2001.
· Gentry, Jr., Kenneth L. "Before Jerusalem Fell." Atlanta, GA.: American Vision, revised ed., 1998.
· *Noe, John. "Beyond the End Times: The Rest of . . . The Greatest Story Ever Told. "Bradford, PA.: IPA, 1999.
· *________. "Dead In Their Tracks: Stopping the Liberal/Skeptic Attack on the Bible." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2001.
· ________. "Shattering the ‘Left Behind’ Delusion." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2000.
· ________. "The Israel Illusion: 13 Popular Misconceptions about This Modern-day Nation and Its Role in Bible Prophecy. "Fishers, IN.: PRI, 2000.
· ________. Top Ten Misconceptions about Jesus’ Second Coming and the End Times. Fishers, IN.: PRI, 1998.
· Otto, Randell E. "Case Dismissed: Rebutting Common Charges Against Preterism." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2000.
· Russell, J. Stuart. "The Parousia." Bradford, Pennsylvania: IPA, 2002. Reprint of the second edition originally published by T. Fisher Unwin, in London, England in 1887.
· *Sproul, R.C. "The Last Days According to Jesus. "Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1998.
· Stevens, Edward E. "Questions About The Afterlife. "Bradford, PA.: IPA, 1999.
· ________. "What Happened In A.D. 70?" Bradford, PA.: IPA, 6th ed., 2001.
· Terry, Milton S. "Biblical Hermeneutics. "Eugene, OR.: Wipf and Stock Publishers, 1890, 1999.

* (top priority—read first)

FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT: John Noe Prophecy Reformation Institute 9715 Kincaid Drive Suite 1100 Fishers, IN 46038
E-mail: jnoe@prophecyrefi.org Ph.# 317-841-7777, Ext. 350 Fax# 317-578-2110

Edward E. Stevens International Preterist Association 122 Seaward Ave. Bradford, PA 16701
E-mail: Preterist1@aol.com Ph.# 1-814-368-6578 Fax# 1-814-368-6030

Be sure to visit our websites: www.prophecyrefi.org. Website: www.preterist.org.

_ Copyright 2001 by John Noe
All rights reserved. This material may be reproduced or transmitted by any means in any form, electronic or mechanical, including photocopy, recording, or any information storage and retrieval system, without prior written permission, but only in its entirety-i.e., both pages.

[Gamma-131-I]

I'm not entirely sure what preterist means. It seems to mean believing that everything in the Bible has already been fulfilled.

I'm not sure I quite go that far since I think there are a few passages that seem to be pretty clear that refer to a day when the dead will rise and Christ will return and every will see it.

However, I do think that a lot of the passages that people bring up saying "See? It's all about to end" might have meant something different to the people they were written to. I don't think they would have interpreted them as not to be fulfilled for 2000 years or so, given that over and over, they were told to pay attention to what they were reading since the time was at hand.

In particular, I don't think sacrifices are going to be offered in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. At least not as a fulfillment of prophecy. That doesn't mean someone might not do it, but if they did, the sacrifices would not be any more pleasing to God then they were between 33 and 70 when the temple was destroyed. The teachings of the letters to the Colossians, Romans, and especially Galatians and Hebrews are pretty clear to me that Christ's sacrifice was once for all and fulfilled the Mosaic law. So I don't really expect to see the temple rebuilt any time soon.

Gamma

[vmatt]

So if an evangelist at Pentecost spoke a word in his own language that had five lip movements but the corresponding language in which he was heard had that word as three lip movements, then apparently the crowd at Pentecost were the first ones to ever see a really bad lip-syncing job! Like what we see in some cheap foreign film.

You make some reasonable points, particularly that about their native tongue. This is exactly what was happening hence the "in which we were born" caveat. The 120 were speaking in an angelic language, the crowd "heard" each in his own native tongue because they were unknowingly and by the power of the Holy Ghost interpreting the tongues in their native language. Your lip syncing comment is exactly correct hence the intoxicated references. To suppose that so great an impression was made simply by demonstrating language skills is IMHO totally erroneous an utterly without logic or reason. I would mark anyone who is that easily convinced by so illogical and devoid of common sense an argument.

No matter how you slice it, the gift of tongues at Pentecost can only make sense if God's Spirit was working in the speaker, not in the hearers.

Not so.

[vmatt]

Concerning 2 Peter 3: The heavens and earth were burned with "fervent heat". Heavens (God's "Old Covenant" with the Jews) Earth (Physical symbol and applications of the "old covenant" and law). The Temple was literally "burned" and utterly left "desolate" (Matt 23-24).

NATE, I agree and am working up a study on this. Don't let up, this is the most powerful verses against fulfillment (I don't like the term preterism) and you are on the right track. Please pay particular attention to this tongues discussion unless you too are convinced I am "slobbering gibberish", a "liar" and given to "epileptic seizures". Satans vocabulary keeps up with the latest medical information, interesting.

[CCWoody]

Nate, not that I am denying that there is end time symbolism involved in figuring this out, but it does seem that your full Preterist view takes it a bit to far.

[George W. Bush]

I can't provide anything on this, but I beleive there have always been those mostly among the poor to very poor who have touched God and received this gift. That would mean mostly uneducated and needy people who would be ridiculed by anyone for speaking about it and at times even killed as heretics.

It's a modern practice. I don't think anyone has ever made a serious claim of any sort that it was occurring to any extext prior to the twentieth century. There are many heresies described in church and civil documents and it generally seems that in such cases they made some attempt to record the justification for punishing or killing a heretic. I don't think that any of the first practicioners of tongues a hundred years ago made any claim that they had any predecessors.

[CCWoody]

You did manage to miss the point I was trying to make.

Don't assume that just because I don't stand with you that I don't believe in Spiritual Gifts or that I have not had any supernatural experiences.

[George W. Bush]

The 120 were speaking in an angelic language, the crowd "heard" each in his own native tongue because they were unknowingly and by the power of the Holy Ghost interpreting the tongues in their native language. Your lip syncing comment is exactly correct hence the intoxicated references. To suppose that so great an impression was made simply by demonstrating language skills is IMHO totally erroneous an utterly without logic or reason. I would mark anyone who is that easily convinced by so illogical and devoid of common sense an argument.

So the crowds remarks should be read as "Hey, these guys are talking just like drunks do in my hometown?"

I don't know what to say. Your angelic language theory has a lot of problems. And since you believe that the real miracle of Pentecost was in the hearing of tongues and not in the speaking of tongues, then why did the Holy Spirit need to come on the speakers and not the hearers?

And where do you find in the bible the notion of angelic languages and the idea that they are understood by every human in their native dialect?
More than that, why angelic languages at all? Why you think God separated the angels into language groups? Where is this idea in the Bible?

If the miracle of "tongues" is actually the miracle of "ears", then doesn't that completely impeach any claim you charismatics make to continuing the tradition of Pentecost? How many foreign language speakers have ever heard a modern charismatic speak in tongues and been converted?

Do you Pentecostals train your missionaries in foreign languages or not?

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

Nate, not that I am denying that there is end time symbolism involved in figuring this out, but it does seem that your full Preterist view takes it a bit to far.

And I do not deny this appearance which is why I ask you to respond to my charges of taking Luke 21:22 too lightly.

Please respond to this. If you forgot what I said, please see this link of mine.

This verse begs a response from all who claim "partial" fulfillment. It really is the key along with Daniel 12.
Preterist?

[CCWoody]

Your lip syncing comment is exactly correct hence the intoxicated references.

Post #244: It is the Gospel itself which Man finds alternatively Astounding or Offensive... and it was their response to the Gospel, good or ill, which informed the opinions of the sojourners as to whether the Power over Foreign Tongues was truly a miracle of God, or a drunken carnival event to be derided (and ignored as quickly as possible). - OrthodoxPresbyterian

You are still missing the point that OP and I are trying to make with you. Some of these people are spiritually dead and some are not because they have been regenerated and born of God. Read Post #273 again.

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

Sorry Woody,
Here it is again.
here

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

Keep it up guys. You are giving me a lot to study over my 2 week leave!!

I am still leaning Woody but Vmatt has made some valid challenges requiring a look.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

The 120 were speaking in an angelic language, the crowd "heard" each in his own native tongue because they were unknowingly and by the power of the Holy Ghost interpreting the tongues in their native language. Your lip syncing comment is exactly correct hence the intoxicated references. To suppose that so great an impression was made simply by demonstrating language skills is IMHO totally erroneous an utterly without logic or reason. I would mark anyone who is that easily convinced by so illogical and devoid of common sense an argument.

Your words are simply lies, vmatt. We know that they are lies because that is not what Luke recorded -- and if it is a battle of historical record and theology between you and Luke, news flash, Luke wins, you lose.

And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Luke states categorically that the Apostles spoke in the tongues of the foreign sojourners, NOT in any kind of imagined holy gibberish. THEREFORE, any who would twist and pervert (in fact, re-word entirely) the plainest words of Scripture, inventing ideas of "angelic language" into the Text which are not there in the service of buttressing their Gospel of Gibber, must be regarded as liars in the service of the Father of Lies.

You re-word Scripture to serve your own purposes! Good grief.

You can't do that. Scripture is Infallible; your personal emotivistic experiences of drooling epileptic convulsion, are not. Period.

have never been the same since and have experienced other things from this same power which would bring me even more ridicule if revealed.

Perhaps RIGHTLY so!!

Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD. (Jeremiah 23: 31-32)

If the miracle of "tongues" is actually the miracle of "ears", then doesn't that completely impeach any claim you charismatics make to continuing the tradition of Pentecost? How many foreign language speakers have ever heard a modern charismatic speak in tongues and been converted? Do you Pentecostals train your missionaries in foreign languages or not? ~~ GWB

I doubt vmatt will realize this, but this ironic question is an utterly damning indictment of his position.

A case of Michelob says he'll miss your point entirely (such an easy bet for a Presbyterian to make with a Baptist... like you'd actually collect, heh heh!!)

[vmatt]

It's a modern practice. I don't think anyone has ever made a serious claim of any sort that it was occurring to any extext prior to the twentieth century. There are many heresies described in church and civil documents and it generally seems that in such cases they made some attempt to record the justification for punishing or killing a heretic. I don't think that any of the first practicioners of tongues a hundred years ago made any claim that they had any predecessors.

The Saturday Evening Post, May 16, 1964, p. 32 - Praying in tongues has recurred at intervals throughout the Christian era, although it did not affect large masses until early in this century. Its advocates were quickly expelled from the established churches, whereupon they established the Pentecostal churches. For 50 years it remained the almost exclusive possession of the Pentecostal churches.

I found this confirming my contention that tongues is indeed as old as Christianity itelf. I did not source this but I am already convinced beyond doubt that this was the case. Mankind has not found a way to control this gift and present it in a nice neat box for sale. It is truly like the wind blowing where it will. You see yourselves the attempts of churches regarding the precious gifts of God, they pervert them to mandated rituals like the false healing, burning breast and gibberish phenomenon. I see them to, am apalled and this is the reason I am not attending an assembly today. Do not let these works of Satan blind your minds and turn to me a deaf ear when I speak the truth.

[Eastbound]

"The second coming was essential to our completed salvation. It was the time that all things would be put "under His feet."

Would that somehow relate to the fulfilling of the following scripture:

"Mr 12:36 David himself said in the Holy Spirit, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet."

If so, would that point to the possibility that the 'second coming' was more like an internal revelation given to the individual rather than an external manifestation to the masses?

Could history be used as a metaphor -- or a parable to understand what occurs to the indivdual in their spiritual quest and progress?

Assuming for the sake of illustration that this is true, that would make us, the natural mind, the footstool of the mind of Christ as carnal thinking atrophies -- carnality being defined as the attributes of a mind focused outward, unable and perhaps unwilling to discern and accept spiritual laws and concepts. Taking John the Baptist's words, we could say that we decrease while He increases in us on an individual basis.

Is the internalization of the 'second coming' where you are essentially coming from or leading up to?

Thanks for the nudge.

[vmatt]

So the crowds remarks should be read as "Hey, these guys are talking just like drunks do in my hometown?"

"How are we all hearing the same person speaking in all our own different native languages? Look, their lips are moving awkwardly. Hmmm. They must be drunk...wait, this is "confounding", "amazing", "marveling", impossible!

WHAT MEANETH THIS?

[CCWoody]

I see them to, am apalled and this is the reason I am not attending an assembly today. Do not let these works of Satan blind your minds and turn to me a deaf ear when I speak the truth.

Sorry, I couldn't hear the second because of the first one. Do you honestly expect me to regard your words as the Truth when you don't even gather with other saints?

I hear this line all the time:

"I don't go to church because they are full of hypocrites." ~~ Great, cause they are full of current and former whoremongers as well. And they are full of murderers and all kinds of vile worms. Christ came for the ungodly.

Honestly, what do you expect when you look for a church that espouses your version of tongues. I searched for 16 long years when I left the Episcopal before I found a home. In the end, I had to help build her.

OTOH, it does seem as if you are just reversing/confusing your position because of the heat you are rightfully taking for such an unBiblical version of tongues. Hmmmmmm!

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

Is the internalization of the 'second coming' where you are essentially coming from or leading up to?

I believe you have just described the "we shall all be changed, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye!"

The internal happening at His coming was the "change" that took place during their flight and the witness of the events at 70 AD.

I do believe Christ actually, literally came, in presence, in a cloud, the shikinah glory, at the destruction of the temple.
His second coming was one in judgement to the Jewish people, as many times before in the old testament, and one in deliverance for the Christians from their persecution, and from their bondage to the "law!!"

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

I found a home. In the end, I had to help build her.

Home is truly where the heart is. Where Christ is is home. He is in my heart, not a building. Vmatt gathers with us daily. We pray for one another.

I attend because I like the challenge and some fellowship, even if many are willingly decieved.

The "establishment" is of man. God did away with it long ago.
There is no more pastoral authority, just "brotherly fellowship."
If Vmatt gets sick at heart to hear someone "preach", as with authority, and the man is preaching half-truths (being nice about it) then I will not blame him.

I am glad God graced me with good filters and some more tolerance for it.

[Quix]

Sigh.

I find your position--exceedingly--wellllll--blind and/or silly. . . but I think it will take events to prove it to you. . . I only hope you are open enough to see things in front of your face at those times.

No, I don't care to argue the specifics. I have other fish to fry.

[John J. Reilly]

You can find a critical review of John Noe's "Beyond the Endtimes"
by clicking here.