[vmatt]

So if an evangelist at Pentecost spoke a word in his own language that had five lip movements but the corresponding language in which he was heard had that word as three lip movements, then apparently the crowd at Pentecost were the first ones to ever see a really bad lip-syncing job! Like what we see in some cheap foreign film.

You make some reasonable points, particularly that about their native tongue. This is exactly what was happening hence the "in which we were born" caveat. The 120 were speaking in an angelic language, the crowd "heard" each in his own native tongue because they were unknowingly and by the power of the Holy Ghost interpreting the tongues in their native language. Your lip syncing comment is exactly correct hence the intoxicated references. To suppose that so great an impression was made simply by demonstrating language skills is IMHO totally erroneous an utterly without logic or reason. I would mark anyone who is that easily convinced by so illogical and devoid of common sense an argument.

No matter how you slice it, the gift of tongues at Pentecost can only make sense if God's Spirit was working in the speaker, not in the hearers.

Not so.

[George W. Bush]

The 120 were speaking in an angelic language, the crowd "heard" each in his own native tongue because they were unknowingly and by the power of the Holy Ghost interpreting the tongues in their native language. Your lip syncing comment is exactly correct hence the intoxicated references. To suppose that so great an impression was made simply by demonstrating language skills is IMHO totally erroneous an utterly without logic or reason. I would mark anyone who is that easily convinced by so illogical and devoid of common sense an argument.

So the crowds remarks should be read as "Hey, these guys are talking just like drunks do in my hometown?"

I don't know what to say. Your angelic language theory has a lot of problems. And since you believe that the real miracle of Pentecost was in the hearing of tongues and not in the speaking of tongues, then why did the Holy Spirit need to come on the speakers and not the hearers?

And where do you find in the bible the notion of angelic languages and the idea that they are understood by every human in their native dialect?
More than that, why angelic languages at all? Why you think God separated the angels into language groups? Where is this idea in the Bible?

If the miracle of "tongues" is actually the miracle of "ears", then doesn't that completely impeach any claim you charismatics make to continuing the tradition of Pentecost? How many foreign language speakers have ever heard a modern charismatic speak in tongues and been converted?

Do you Pentecostals train your missionaries in foreign languages or not?

[CCWoody]

Your lip syncing comment is exactly correct hence the intoxicated references.

Post #244: It is the Gospel itself which Man finds alternatively Astounding or Offensive... and it was their response to the Gospel, good or ill, which informed the opinions of the sojourners as to whether the Power over Foreign Tongues was truly a miracle of God, or a drunken carnival event to be derided (and ignored as quickly as possible). - OrthodoxPresbyterian

You are still missing the point that OP and I are trying to make with you. Some of these people are spiritually dead and some are not because they have been regenerated and born of God. Read Post #273 again.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

The 120 were speaking in an angelic language, the crowd "heard" each in his own native tongue because they were unknowingly and by the power of the Holy Ghost interpreting the tongues in their native language. Your lip syncing comment is exactly correct hence the intoxicated references. To suppose that so great an impression was made simply by demonstrating language skills is IMHO totally erroneous an utterly without logic or reason. I would mark anyone who is that easily convinced by so illogical and devoid of common sense an argument.

Your words are simply lies, vmatt. We know that they are lies because that is not what Luke recorded -- and if it is a battle of historical record and theology between you and Luke, news flash, Luke wins, you lose.

And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Luke states categorically that the Apostles spoke in the tongues of the foreign sojourners, NOT in any kind of imagined holy gibberish. THEREFORE, any who would twist and pervert (in fact, re-word entirely) the plainest words of Scripture, inventing ideas of "angelic language" into the Text which are not there in the service of buttressing their Gospel of Gibber, must be regarded as liars in the service of the Father of Lies.

You re-word Scripture to serve your own purposes! Good grief.

You can't do that. Scripture is Infallible; your personal emotivistic experiences of drooling epileptic convulsion, are not. Period.

have never been the same since and have experienced other things from this same power which would bring me even more ridicule if revealed.

Perhaps RIGHTLY so!!

Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD. (Jeremiah 23: 31-32)

If the miracle of "tongues" is actually the miracle of "ears", then doesn't that completely impeach any claim you charismatics make to continuing the tradition of Pentecost? How many foreign language speakers have ever heard a modern charismatic speak in tongues and been converted? Do you Pentecostals train your missionaries in foreign languages or not? ~~ GWB

I doubt vmatt will realize this, but this ironic question is an utterly damning indictment of his position.

A case of Michelob says he'll miss your point entirely (such an easy bet for a Presbyterian to make with a Baptist... like you'd actually collect, heh heh!!)